Rochdale Canal

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

5 minutes ago, dmr said:

This project does look like bad decision making/financial insanity on a grand scale, when there are many locks rhat really need fixing

I still have the idea that CRT like to have/leave some stuff falling apart so they can play their poverty card 

[dmr]

1 minute ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I still have the idea that CRT like to have/leave some stuff falling apart so they can play their poverty card 

 

Interesting idea.

When we were out and about last summer (😀) I was surprised that some locks in prime visitor spots were looking neglected. Star lock in Stone for example.

[Francis Herne]

On CRT overspending:

 

There's a project to repaint a 1990s steel footbridge over the canal. Basically a case of pressure-washing it, wire-brush a couple of areas of rust, new coat of paint. Access to the underside from the local canal group's workboat. The local council has offered to pay for the paint and local groups to provide the boat and volunteers.

 

CRT insist that the entire structure must be hermetically encapsulated with plastic sheeting over scaffolding. Every area of paint must be tested for lead. Water must be tested during and after the work for contamination. And so on, despite the entire structure post-dating any use of lead paint and the exact product used being known. Obviously the projected cost goes from three figures to five and becomes totally unviable.

 

Consequence: instead of the bridge being repainted at zero cost to CRT, they now get to watch it rust away for the next couple of decades until it falls down.

The same blind and disproportionate checklist application applies to their own internal works, and accounts for the ridiculous timescales and costs of doing the simplest things.

 

The other thing is a total lack of urgency resulting in trivial problems becoming huge and expensive ones. Most glaringly the missing bywash deflector at Tyrley -- four bolts took two years to replace, and now the entire opposite wall has been scoured away and will need rebuilding at a cost of £££. Plus all the damage to boats bouncing off it.

Edited January 21 by Francis Herne

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

20 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Ah that’s OK then, £487,500 from CART funds. It could be less as maybe there’s some inter transferable cost. 

Don’t get me wrong, simply pointing out what they say. 
 

I’m not familiar with these bridges in the Oxford, been a long since I went through them, so can’t comment whether they need the work or no

[IanD]

20 hours ago, Ian Mac said:

<snip>
As to the current stoppage on the 18, As the trust has no money due to the erosion of the government Grant by inflation, (was planned I suspect) which in real terms has reduced the available pot by about 20%. This means the trust is in Fix on failure mode, it does not have the resources to do preventative maintenance. This situation has been made far worse, because the rules for reservoirs have change, as a result of Todbrook. This does not just apply to C&RT but also the Water utilities, it is costing a mega fortune to fix them all. The trust can not say they will do them tomorrow the law does not allow that as an option. So ever since Todbrook the trust has been spending tens of millions on reservoirs, each year. Another problem is that the trust is the only charity, which I am aware of, which has statuary duties IE things it must do by law. Providing free towpath access is one of those duties, so towpaths have to come first. The right of navigation was removed over 60 years ago.
Changing the CEO will not alter any of this, in fact it will prove to be a very expensive process, as I'm sure you will find out in the not to distant future when Mr Parry decides to step down. Getting a new CEO will be an expensive process, unless you want a muppet to do the job, and you may get one anyway, if care is not taken. The Trust is one of the top 30 charities in the country and CEOs even for charities do not come cheap. The CEO of the Welcome Trust is on well over half a million a year for example. Oh! plus benefits of course.
The other thing is the the CEO does not determine what happens it is the board which does that they are called Trustees these days for a charity. One thing of significance which has occurred is that the Chair of the Trustees has recently changed, and this is making a difference David Orr gets that it is all about boats moving. His first formal canal visit was actually to the Rochdale canal in Newton Heath, I know that because I organised that visit. He gets canals. He is also between a rock and a hard place because all the different canal users are fighting each other rather than the true enemy. They all seem to think it is the other users who are the problem, not HMG. If HMG increase its funding to say over 60M a year linked to inflation, it would be a very different picture and the small hole on the offside of lock 67 would probably be already fixed.

</RANT>

--

cheers IAn MAc

 

All of which is pretty much what I said... 😞

 

Except some CWDF posters clearly think it's Richard Parry who's the problem, not HMG... 😉

 

39 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I still have the idea that CRT like to have/leave some stuff falling apart so they can play their poverty card 

It's not like they have much choice though, given the funding shortfall @Ian Mac described and the amount of stuff that's falling apart today... 😞

Edited January 21 by IanD

[dmr]

51 minutes ago, Francis Herne said:

On CRT overspending:

 

There's a project to repaint a 1990s steel footbridge over the canal. Basically a case of pressure-washing it, wire-brush a couple of areas of rust, new coat of paint. Access to the underside from the local canal group's workboat. The local council has offered to pay for the paint and local groups to provide the boat and volunteers.

 

CRT insist that the entire structure must be hermetically encapsulated with plastic sheeting over scaffolding. Every area of paint must be tested for lead. Water must be tested during and after the work for contamination. And so on, despite the entire structure post-dating any use of lead paint and the exact product used being known. Obviously the projected cost goes from three figures to five and becomes totally unviable.

 

Consequence: instead of the bridge being repainted at zero cost to CRT, they now get to watch it rust away for the next couple of decades until it falls down.

The same blind and disproportionate checklist application applies to their own internal works, and accounts for the ridiculous timescales and costs of doing the simplest things.

 

The other thing is a total lack of urgency resulting in trivial problems becoming huge and expensive ones. Most glaringly the missing bywash deflector at Tyrley -- four bolts took two years to replace, and now the entire opposite wall has been scoured away and will need rebuilding at a cost of £££. Plus all the damage to boats bouncing off it.

 

This sort of thing is very frustrating, especially watching a bad or delayed repair giving much bigger works later. There is a rumour that the current subsidence might be due to some previous work. This is a CRT weakness and something that can be improved, and I have heard that CRT are now putting some thinking into these things. I hope that the current financial problem might have a little silver lining.

As to DIY bridge painting then yes, this is also frustrating, but there are laws and rules to follow. Again I hope things can improve and CRT can start to establish teams of local volunteers who can take be trusted to take on projects like this. Letting a load of unknown locals loose on repairs could be an expensive disaster so I understand the CRT concern. For example I suspect there are loads of blokes with access to a JCB who reckon they could do a bit of dredging but don't even know that there is a clay lining 😀. And looking at various end of garden patios there are lots of people with building skills who have zero sympathy with the historic character of the canal.

[agg221]

1 hour ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

weren’t they advertising this last year?

volunteers to assess assets?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Stroudwater1 said:

@agg221its a very good point, the restored parts -phase1a of the Stroudwater has the whole length covered by volunteer lengths people/folk/men. Interest may wane here and there over time of course! 

 

There may well be some of this already happening - I must admit, living in Essex my options for offering practical support are limited so I don't check adverts for volunteers that often. However, I was thinking of the specific opportunity for getting people involved who live near/walk along a canal but have no other connection, in a way which is genuinely useful and also ticks some boxes. They aren't going to see an online advert.

 

On the other point of discussion around best use of resources, it is clear that there are questionable decisions being made, with the bridges on the Oxford and the bridge repainting discussed by @Francis Herne as prime examples. I feel it is important not to pre-judge the thinking that leads to these decisions, but there should certainly be a route to challenging it, ideally in advance but if not then definitely in the context of lessons learned. One point which is often overlooked is that you can email Richard Parry directly and get a personal answer - that is a pretty rare thing in a CEO and I would not presume that the same would be true of his successor. However, it would be better if there was a less nuclear option available. The relationship between CRT and its users is far more symbiotic than the average business/customer/shareholder relationship and there appear to be some good grounds to build on here.

 

Alec

 

 

[Midnight]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

All of which is pretty much what I said... 😞

 

Except some CWDF posters clearly think it's Richard Parry who's the problem, not HMG... 😉

 

It's not like they have much choice though, given the funding shortfall @Ian Mac described and the amount of stuff that's falling apart today... 😞

No @IanD it's me who thinks Parry is the problem. If you read some of posts above you will see it's not all about money it's about management. What a brilliant decision it was to ignore warnings at Todbrook and Middlewich. What a great decision to waste £loads on electrifying bridges on the Oxford and £enough to fix a few locks on sponsored Facebook adverts when 100s of boaters do same job etc, etc.

Edited January 21 by Midnight

[MtB]

20 hours ago, Midnight said:

 

Ian does a great job. I've never needed his help myself but he once helped the boats in front which made our descent easier.

 

Nobody is moaning about the locks being difficult. And I agree moaning about Parry won't help. Replacing him might. 

 

Isn't that the same thing though?

 

What was your opinion of Robin Evans? Did you want him replaced too? Did you get your wish? 

 

 

[Midnight]

38 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Isn't that the same thing though?

 

What was your opinion of Robin Evans? Did you want him replaced too? Did you get your wish? 

 

 

I didn't worry too much in those days because I could rely on the canals being open. It never occurred to me when doing a 3 week dash from Ripon to the midlands and back that the Pennine crossings would be closed. Now it's a racing certainty that at least 2 of them will be and far too often all 3.

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, Midnight said:

I didn't worry too much in those days because I could rely on the canals being open. It never occurred to me when doing a 3 week dash from Ripon to the midlands and back that the Pennine crossings would be closed. Now it's a racing certainty that at least 2 of them will be and far too often all 3.

 

 

I seem to remember him getting a right ol' bashing on here on a regular basis.

 

But not from you, a satisfied customer eh?  

 

 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

14 minutes ago, Midnight said:

I didn't worry too much in those days because I could rely on the canals being open. It never occurred to me when doing a 3 week dash from Ripon to the midlands and back that the Pennine crossings would be closed. Now it's a racing certainty that at least 2 of them will be and far too often all 3.

Boating the Pennines was quite an eye opener for me regards lack of maintenance.

Its a good job the people are friendly and the pubs are so good up there,

for its now a guarantee you’ll get stuck!

 

and of course you now take your chances on the Macclesfield 

…good pubs again mind

 

[system 4-50]

Some here seem to think that Parry is doing a poor job, and describe what he should be doing instead.  None of what is suggested is difficult to understand.  Parry is intelligent & can read what is said here, so why do they think he is not  doing what they suggest?  If he is not doing what is bleedin' obviously necessary, why do the critics think he is choosing to behave in this way?  I think he is probably doing the best possible with the options at his disposal, but I have no info to back this up.

[agg221]

32 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Some here seem to think that Parry is doing a poor job, and describe what he should be doing instead.  None of what is suggested is difficult to understand.  Parry is intelligent & can read what is said here, so why do they think he is not  doing what they suggest?  If he is not doing what is bleedin' obviously necessary, why do the critics think he is choosing to behave in this way?  I think he is probably doing the best possible with the options at his disposal, but I have no info to back this up.

I generally agree with you, with a couple of caveats.

 

1. Richard Parry is one man at the top of a large organisation. We focus on boating but there are a whole load of other aspects to the business - the property business, other assets, safety, HR etc. I can well believe that there may be some points of weakness within the business structure, things which are not working, and that he may not be aware of them.

2. There are always potential improvements to be made. Sometimes something which worked fine previously may no longer be the best option - there are changes in financial circumstances but also in relative costs; sometimes new technology can make something cheaper etc. and when people on the ground are getting on with the job, they may not be aware of potential improvements.

 

Sometimes things go wrong because people are human and they make the wrong call based on the limitations of their knowledge, often because they do not know that better information is available, let alone where to look for it. It's no bad thing to flag issues when they arise, in the spirit of constructive criticism.

 

Alec

Edited January 21 by agg221

[Ian Mac]

A few things I know.

The last litigation centred around a moveable bridge, I believe, was settled out of court for a 7 figure sum. This makes the cost of changing a few lift bridges on the Oxford cheap, especially when you self insure, which most big companies do. (For example the third party/Transport Dept Min excess for my companies company car policy was 4 million, keeps the rates low, but you need good drivers!). It also means that boaters can now operate them safely from the towpath side without the extra cost of building offside landing stages for single handed boaters, who moaned to the ends of the earth and back about them! Plus it gets the Local authorities off the Trust back, who were complaining about the public footpaths not being freely open to all, and making all sorts of legal type threats.
The old fashioned Banbury stick and leaping for a chain in these days of Grabit Suite & Run and unlimited H&S fines, make it a very cheap option to install hydraulic pumps. The installation of which has been spread over a number of years, so although the total seems high in the scheme of things it is in the noise, compared to the £6m spent each year on dredging.
The breach at Middlewich, involved a lock with all its paddles up, and the local police with C&RT operatives who went to deal with it, having to call out two police armed Response units, by the time it was sort the damage was done.  Basically vandalism,  or a some would say a suitable case for treatment.  There are any number of places around the system where there would be all sorts of problems if the same thing happened.
Nantwitch Embankment is a major problem and is being closely monitored, that said all the Telford embankments have been problematic from the very start! As have his cuttings.

Dimensions these come from a different age where maximum carrying capacity was all. One of the earliest agreements I can find is that The Trent & Mersey Canal Co, The Birmingham & Fazeley Canal Co, The Coventry and Oxford Canal Co's all agreed that the gauge of their canals would support was Seven and a Quarter Feet by which I take this to mean 7ft 3inches. Of course Parliament became involved when the railways arrived and we have the "Standard Gauge" to avoid this problem, however the did not specify the loading gauge so we have them to thank for being well backwards on our railways there.
The dimension of the canals have slowly altered over the years, as cost cutting has occurred. The most recent example being the reduction to 6ft 10" for the Llangollen and the Chesterfield in the late 1960's. Interestingly the last carrying boats BW had built at the end of the 50's were to 6ft10"
All the sizes where then made legal by the government and recorded, as a sop I believe to the loss of the right of navigation.  (await other historians to correct me here) It is these dimensions which are public now. There are no rules as to what size and shape a boat can be, this has lead to all sorts of problems, of which the most serious in my opinion is overhanging base plates, this happened in days of yor, however they were not outside the box shape of the boat, whereas they are now in a good few cases, and are the widest point on the boat. Recently had to help winch a boat stuck with its base plate out of a HVNC lock. These baseplates are slicing the mitre posts to pieces. If the boat had proper sweep in towards the base plate as historic boats do it would not be a problem, however it does cost more to do this rather than have a slab sided boat. C&RT need construction and use rules, not just width, depth, and length. but tobleholme to cabins and hulls. This may help stop boats knocking hell out of the bridge arches on certain canals, although teaching people how to steer would also help.
On width, the standard for any new build on a narrow canal without historic restrictions/problems is 2300mm.

There are now volunteers who walk some canals on a regular basis and report into the system, I was helping to do that over 10 years ago. Other volunteers do other important jobs, such as inspect reservoirs for example. There really is no limit, to the tasks a volunteer can undertake, as long as they can be trained properly, and pass the assessments just like a paid employee has to do. For example , one of the most qualified M&E inspectors, is a volunteer, after her retirement for the nuclear industry.
However volunteers can choose to stay at home today or when ever, so there have to be enough trained employees to cover all the statutory and essential operational duties, and I would guess that number of staff able to do that, is getting very close to that base number. It is interesting to see that people you would think of as pen pushers are in fact trained to do certain tasks and appear on the weekend rosters, to undertake these tasks.
There are also a good many adoption groups and other local groups. Here on the Rochdale, there are groups in Ancoats, Newton Heath, Failsworth - they were out today, Chadderton, Rochdale, and Littleborough, all of whom are making a significant difference. There may be other groups which I do not know about, I'm sure there must be some on the dark side ;). There are also regular volunteer teams out on Tuesdays  Wednesdays and Thursdays doing vegetation Management on the Rochdale, more people always welcome, currently based in Failsworth area.

PS I like the idea of install a floating pontoon in the A45 bridge to stop the free movement of fat boats on a narrow waterway, it was a real nuisance meeting one, because they would not pull over and we could not due to depth, so just not enough width. Eventually they had to back up to the marina and go in there out of the way again, could have done without that delay, nearly missed the pub!

--

Cheers Ian Mac
 

[Francis Herne]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

 

As to DIY bridge painting then yes, this is also frustrating, but there are laws and rules to follow. Again I hope things can improve and CRT can start to establish teams of local volunteers who can take be trusted to take on projects like this. Letting a load of unknown locals loose on repairs could be an expensive disaster so I understand the CRT concern. For example I suspect there are loads of blokes with access to a JCB who reckon they could do a bit of dredging but don't even know that there is a clay lining 😀.

 

This is a long-established canal society with decades of history working with CRT and BW. At least one person involved used to work at BW managing similar projects. It's not some do-gooders with paintbrushes and CRT are (or really ought to be) aware of that.

Edited January 21 by Francis Herne

[Ian Mac]

I did not mention Todbrook. The spillway was a modern design undertaken by a friend, and implemented in the mid 70's. The government of the day cost cut the original design. This design was then used on a good many other places, all of which where either in government control or local authority control. 
It was unfortunate that it was Todbrook which alerted us to the problem, it could have been any one of them which failed under the new weather patterns. The end result is that C&RT along with a lot of utility companies are spend fortunes altering the way Spillways work.
As an aside - Our local UU reservoirs have all just had new major spillways. After the last storm, we are now having a new road bridge, as the water from the new spillway has washed the bridge foundations out. 
C&RT have had to update a large number of Spillways, the one at Harthill has been an even bigger job than Todbrook but not in the news the same.

--

cheers Ian Mac

[Ronaldo47]

I fear that discretion has been increasingly replaced by tick box procedures in a number of fields. My wife bemoaned its introduction shortly before she left teaching.  

 

In the civil servuce at least, in some cases the object appears to have been to reduce the need for higher-grade (and therefore more expensive) staff who are capable of using their brains, by instigating check list processes that can be carried out by cheaper, lower-grade, staff. 

 

 

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Francis Herne said:

CRT insist that the entire structure must be hermetically encapsulated with plastic sheeting over scaffolding. Every area of paint must be tested for lead. Water must be tested during and after the work for contamination. And so on, despite the entire structure post-dating any use of lead paint and the exact product used being known. Obviously the projected cost goes from three figures to five and becomes totally unviable.

Sounds like somebody needs to rattle CRT's cage on this one. If the bridge construction postdated the phase out of lead paint, then the bridge is sufficiently recent that the original construction drawings and specification, including the paint spec should be held by the bridge owner (whether CRT, the local authority or some other body). If these records show that non-lead paint was used it should be sufficient to test a few sample ares to confirm this (without enveloping the bridge in plastic), and that would allow the work to proceed on a more reasonable basis.

[dmr]

2 hours ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

Boating the Pennines was quite an eye opener for me regards lack of maintenance.

Its a good job the people are friendly and the pubs are so good up there,

for its now a guarantee you’ll get stuck!

 

and of course you now take your chances on the Macclesfield 

…good pubs again mind

 

I only really know the Rochdale well, we are too long for the L&L and just a tiny bit too fat for the HNC, though have done sections of both with friends.

My own view, and Ian Mac might correct me here, is that the Rochdale is mostly in pretty good condition, the lock gates are solid and work well. They are heavy and some don't open all the way due to rubbish, and there is much too much rubbish on the 18 but thats down to it passing through a very deprived urban area. A canal with so many locks and short pounds (and without its original resevoirs) is going to have low water levels at times, and statistically is going to have more failures. Fixing big wide Northern locks will be a bigger job than the little Southern things. It could be better if CRT had a few more more resources. The 18 did get a bit overgrown and neglected a couple of years ago (probably when you came up, and when you helped us up) but was looking much better this year. I think its easy to have a bad time on the 18 (you were there with us 😀) and over equate this with bad maintanance.

The South Oxford was not so good last time we went down, some of the T&M and Shroppie were not looking too good last year, and I remember a few locks that we shared with you on the lower Soar looked not too good.

Considerring the relative use of the North and Midlands waterways CRT are probably allocating resources correctly. My big concern is that the Northern canals have a lot of lock gates that will all expire at the same time and cause a big problem.

[Midnight]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Sounds like somebody needs to rattle CRT's cage on this one. If the bridge construction postdated the phase out of lead paint, then the bridge is sufficiently recent that the original construction drawings and specification, including the paint spec should be held by the bridge owner (whether CRT, the local authority or some other body). If these records show that non-lead paint was used it should be sufficient to test a few sample ares to confirm this (without enveloping the bridge in plastic), and that would allow the work to proceed on a more reasonable basis.

Exactly my point. Where's the sensible leadership? Volunteers painted the Halfpenny bridge at Mirfield two years ago without the need  to encase it in plastic. The buck stops with Parry!! 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

I only really know the Rochdale well, we are too long for the L&L and just a tiny bit too fat for the HNC, though have done sections of both with friends.

My own view, and Ian Mac might correct me here, is that the Rochdale is mostly in pretty good condition, the lock gates are solid and work well. They are heavy and some don't open all the way due to rubbish, and there is much too much rubbish on the 18 but thats down to it passing through a very deprived urban area. A canal with so many locks and short pounds (and without its original resevoirs) is going to have low water levels at times, and statistically is going to have more failures. Fixing big wide Northern locks will be a bigger job than the little Southern things. It could be better if CRT had a few more more resources. The 18 did get a bit overgrown and neglected a couple of years ago (probably when you came up, and when you helped us up) but was looking much better this year. I think its easy to have a bad time on the 18 (you were there with us 😀) and over equate this with bad maintanance.

The South Oxford was not so good last time we went down, some of the T&M and Shroppie were not looking too good last year, and I remember a few locks that we shared with you on the lower Soar looked not too good.

Considerring the relative use of the North and Midlands waterways CRT are probably allocating resources correctly. My big concern is that the Northern canals have a lot of lock gates that will all expire at the same time and cause a big problem.

Were the leaking lock gates at the end of your pound ever fixed?

Clearing rubbish is their job, 

comes under maintenance don’t it?

 

[dmr]

1 hour ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

Were the leaking lock gates at the end of your pound ever fixed?

Clearing rubbish is their job, 

comes under maintenance don’t it?

 

 

I think somebody goes to Newton Heath most days but the locals have been putting it in faster than CRT can take it out. I believe CRT and volumteers drained the pounds last year and lifted a load of stuff out. We got up with only one weedhatch visit.

I put a notice on lock 34 advising boaters of the correct sequence to close the gates and now over 90% of boats get the gates to mitre correctly, we have saved shedloads of summit water, so doing a proper fix might never get to the top of the list. I note that CRT have a similar notice in Stone..

CRT are going to try to have a look at the leakage at lock 35 in the next few weeks and they have just got 36 watertight though that was quite a big job. Things are slowly improving.

 

[TheBiscuits]

15 hours ago, dmr said:

I think its easy to have a bad time on the 18 [...] and over equate this with bad maintanance.

 

Attitude matters too.  The first time I descended the 18 I was sharing with another boat, they swore "never ever again" and we quite enjoyed it!

 

Yes, it can be hard work and you might need to move some water around but it's a stunning canal.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Attitude matters too.  The first time I descended the 18 I was sharing with another boat, they swore "never ever again" and we quite enjoyed it!

 

Yes, it can be hard work and you might need to move some water around but it's a stunning canal.

 

Somewhat of an understatement, when we came down in the rain in October water was flooding over the gates and towpaths, in places we had to go at least two locks/pounds ahead to let water down to try and minimise this when we emptied a lock -- and there was so much water going down the Nine that it took the combined efforts of me and four passers-by to open one top gate... 😞

 

The East side and the upper parts of the West side are indeed stunning and enjoyable, but the lower parts of the West side and the Nine are rather less so... 😉

Edited January 22 by IanD