Proposed new accessible electric narrowboat.

[Ronaldo47]

We occasionally burn logs in our open fire obtained from the fallen and felled-as-dangerous trees in the heavily-wooded conference centre, owned by a charity, where my wife works as a volunteer. They used to just burn them on bonfires in the grounds because the trees do not produce wood of any economic value,  other than as fuel. We only light the fire on special occasions or in the rare periods  when we have really cold snaps. 

 

 

[booke23]

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

Great film. Inefficient steamers use enormous quantities of fuel though, ask @DHutch, so not very eco-friendly are they? And if they burn loads of wood, that also means truly massive PM2.5 emissions... 😞

 

Yeah but no-one is living on that lake to breathe in the PM2.5 so it's probs ok.   

[magnetman]

8 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

We occasionally burn logs in our open fire obtained from the fallen and felled-as-dangerous trees in the heavily-wooded conference centre, owned by a charity, where my wife works as a volunteer. They used to just burn them on bonfires in the grounds because the trees do not produce wood of any economic value,  other than as fuel. We only light the fire on special occasions or in the rare periods  when we have really cold snaps. 

 

 

 

Yes. 

 

I'm not a fan of cutting down trees and i only have a licence to clear fallen and dead wood at the country estate. 

 

I suppose if one adopts the 'do as I do" approach then deforestation would be the outcome. Not ideal. 

 

Maybe it is better that most people live in heavily insulated enclosed units with electricity as the main power and heating source. 

 

Yes. Thats a Good Idea. 

 

Thinsulate Britain !

 

 

 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

Yeah but no-one is living on that lake to breathe in the PM2.5 so it's probs ok.   

But the OP especially wanted to be eco-friendly (zero emissions and pollution) and not burn stuff... 😉

 

Not gonna happen though, all the things that make this possible with an eco-house simply don't work on a narrowboat... 😞

[magnetman]

I think this idea works for the summer to be fair. 

 

It sounds like they have not put all their chickens in one basket before they are hatched and also have a house or apartment to live in. Perhaps beside a canal in Hackney or Kilburn. 

 

This seems to mean that if the arrangement turns out to be sub optimal (a bit chilly) out of season the option exists to retreat to the centrally heated conventional style dwelling unit. 

 

 

For people who choose not to have these alternative units available the heating situation can prove more reality-focused. 

 

[IanD]

28 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I think this idea works for the summer to be fair. 

 

It sounds like they have not put all their chickens in one basket before they are hatched and also have a house or apartment to live in. Perhaps beside a canal in Hackney or Kilburn. 

 

This seems to mean that if the arrangement turns out to be sub optimal (a bit chilly) out of season the option exists to retreat to the centrally heated conventional style dwelling unit. 

 

 

For people who choose not to have these alternative units available the heating situation can prove more reality-focused. 

 

 

Given the size of the boat and the amount of solar that can be fitted on, it's unlikely to work even in summer with an all-electric boat including cooking and propulsion, given that the OP also wants to be able to cruise around.

 

And without an onboard generator or fuel-based heating, it'll be completely unusable outside the summer months unless plugged into shoreline in a marina.

 

A full-length electric-only boat with maybe double the solar would be more usable in summer and still OK for a couple of months in spring and autumn, but still unusable in winter.

 

A "Passivhaus" works, a "Passivnarrowboat" doesn't... 😞

Edited December 22, 2023 by IanD

[Matt Wardman]

22 hours ago, IanD said:

Unless you spend most of your time plugged in with battery bank power used for short cruises (up to 2 days?) or only use the boat in summer and don't move much, you're going to need an onboard generator, which means burning fuel. That's not just me saying that, it's the finding of pretty much everyone with an electric/hybrid boat.

 

One thing that is interesting to me is how small the battery banks are on Electric Narrowboats compared to the size of said boats. Compare:

 

1 - A big house battery (Tesla Powerwall) is 13.5 kWh. Useable power quoted as 11.8kWh. TBF another can be added. Based (I assume) on how much may be needed until the next 24 hourly solar charging or reduced cost power recharging period.

 

2 - A battery pack for a Mothership Marine electric narrowboat is 28.6kWh, with 80% sometimes useable (22.8kWh) and 50% useable all the time (14.3kWh). Travel efficiency quoted in good conditions is 0.33 miles per kWh, giving a stated approximate range of 42 miles using 50% of battery capacity.

https://mothershipmarine.com/faq/
 

Orto Marine seem to have a larger battery pack (1000Ah at 48V, which is I think crudely 48kWh) for a slightly longer boat, but say it needs recharge out after about 7 hours.

https://www.ortomarine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/HunkyDory_Spec_Crick.pdf
 

Hmm. This is me learning more about electric narrowboats, and perhaps about drivetrain efficiency of different arrangements and guestimated calculations. I'm surmising that those sizes are what can realistically be recharged in a few hours on existing shore power connections.

 

3 - A battery for a Tesla 3 is 75kWh (chosen as sample for a larger BEV car). Efficiency is quoted as ~0.22 miles per kWh. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Matt Wardman

[magnetman]

It does depend on what they mean by 'cruising around' to be fair. 

 

Some people really like London. I can understand this. Although I am not into urban areas / am in denial, the Regents section of the Grand Union is actually an incredibly rewarding place to go Boating if you like history. Obviously there is ribbon development of horribly inappropriate flats but that is part of the history. 

Having done most of the UK canals including other cities in the past I suppose Farmers bridge locks were good but the Regents section is pretty special. Too many things attached to the towpath but in general its really good. 

 

If I had a canalside house somewhere like Camden with a mooring down the garden and was into the city itself I think 'Boating' would not have to involve long distances at all. 

 

The Paddington arm, while also being spoiled terribly by too many things on the towpath, is incredibly beautiful.

An evening cruise (wear blinkers) from say Notting Hell through to some reasonable civilisation such as around Willowtree marina can be a true joy. 

 

Just look at the alignment of the canal and think about how this was achieved! Its mind bending ! Those curves are to die for !

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Ok when I skimmed it I couldn't see it ! There's lots of people trying to get accessible boats out there 🤷‍♀️. No big deal ?

[ditchcrawler]

55 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Yes. 

 

I'm not a fan of cutting down trees and i only have a licence to clear fallen and dead wood at the country estate. 

 

I suppose if one adopts the 'do as I do" approach then deforestation would be the outcome. Not ideal. 

 

Maybe it is better that most people live in heavily insulated enclosed units with electricity as the main power and heating source. 

 

Yes. Thats a Good Idea. 

 

Thinsulate Britain !

 

 

 

So do you cycle from central London out to the country estate and use a bow saw to cut the wood up

[magnetman]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

So do you cycle from central London out to the country estate and use a bow saw to cut the wood up

 

Electric train for the transport. Solar power to charge the battery for the tiny cordless chainsaw. I have bowsaws as well. 

 

 

I do think being fair that electric mass transport systems should be allowed as they are actually quite an efficient way to move over longer distances.

 

It is rather sad that the Tesla geyser proposed a vactrain (idea is very very old) which he never intended to construct so that a long distance rail line would be put on the back burner .

 

Vactrains are the answer but failing that it has to be rail and electric although the slightly silly knitting above the trains does cause reliability issues. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I do think being fair that electric mass transport systems should be allowed as they are actually quite an efficient way to move over longer distances.

I couldn't agree more, the other comment I made was tongue in cheek 

[magnetman]

I Stihl don't believe in 2 stroke chainsaws. Makita solved this problem.

[IanD]

55 minutes ago, Matt Wardman said:

 

One thing that is interesting to me is how small the battery banks are on Electric Narrowboats compared to the size of said boats. Compare:

 

1 - A big house battery (Tesla Powerwall) is 13.5 kWh. Useable power quoted as 11.8kWh. TBF another can be added. Based (I assume) on how much may be needed until the next 24 hourly solar charging or reduced cost power recharging period.

 

2 - A battery pack for a Mothership Marine electric narrowboat is 28.6kWh, with 80% sometimes useable (22.8kWh) and 50% useable all the time (14.3kWh). Travel efficiency quoted in good conditions is ~0.33 miles per kWh.

https://mothershipmarine.com/faq/
 

Orto Marine seem to have a larger battery pack (1000Ah at 48V, which is I think crudely 48kWh) for a slightly longer boat, but say it needs recharge out after about 7 hours.

https://www.ortomarine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/HunkyDory_Spec_Crick.pdf
 

Hmm. This is me learning more about electric narrowboats, and perhaps about drivetrain efficiency of different arrangements and guestimated calculations. I'm surmising that those sizes are what can realistically be recharged in a few hours on existing shore power connections.

 

3 - A battery for a Tesla 3 is 75kWh (chosen as sample for a larger BEV car). Efficiency is quoted as ~0.22 miles per kWh. 

The LFP battery on my boat is 35kWh, I've run it from 100% SoC down to 10% once when the genny stopped working due to water in the diesel and I had to get to a boatyard.

 

0.33miles per kWh makes no sense, I found I was cruising at about 3mph on 3-4kW which is getting on for 3x better than this (1 mile per kWh).

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Matt Wardman said:

I'm surmising that those sizes are what can realistically be recharged in a few hours on existing shore power connections.

 

Your typical marina will only have a 16 amp supply for hook-up, there are not generally any "EV" type high current hook-ups so you will be relying on many, many hours on a 'granny lead' - which will (maybe) have to be disconnected whilst you have the heating / cooking switched on.

 

This is why electric boats genarally have a generator running for a few hours per day (or alternate days depending on usage) that have sufficient Kw to get a reasonable charge back into the batteries for the next day

 

There is currently a huge disparity between what you are looking for and what is achievable / available.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Your typical marina will only have a 16 amp supply for hook-up, there are not generally any "EV" type high current hook-ups so you will be relying on many, many hours on a 'granny lead' - which will (maybe) have to be disconnected whilst you have the heating / cooking switched on.

 

This is why electric boats genarally have a generator running for a few hours per day (or alternate days depending on usage) that have sufficient Kw to get a reasonable charge back into the batteries for the next day

 

There is currently a huge disparity between what you are looking for and what is achievable / available.

You don't have to disconnect the shore lead when you're using a lot of power, the inverter will take the maximum shoreline current set (e.g. 16A) and the rest will come from the batteries. But it does typically take twice as long to recharge from shoreline as it does from the generator.

 

Not an issue if you're plugged in overnight, but there's no equivalent to the EV fast chargers. There are a few 32A points but these still take hours for a full charge, like using the generator.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

11 hours ago, IanD said:

You don't have to disconnect the shore lead when you're using a lot of power, the inverter will take the maximum shoreline current set (e.g. 16A) and the rest will come from the batteries. But it does typically take twice as long to recharge from shoreline as it does from the generator.

 Obviously once again it’s all down to equipment fitted, there’s a big difference in inverters and the power they can produce and recharge batteries. Just like generators you can’t compare a cheap Chinese £300 one with a a £20K Kohler. Like when one of the Tech posters started talking about big Battery banks, it would be interesting if people could maybe put on some actual prices/costs to what these things cost that they’re talking about, to give people some idea to what’s involved, as it could be a bit on an eye opener to many💷💷

[agg221]

On 18/12/2023 at 14:01, IanD said:

As well as being horrendously expensive it's also flat and not bendable, so problematic on a curved roof or hull sections.

Rather late to this thread, but the material you would use is silica aerogel blanket. This has the aerogel particles embedded within a thermoplastic polymer matrix. Performance is compromised compared with monolithic aerogel, but it is way easier to handle, being fully flexible, robust (monolithic aerogel really isn't robust at all) and cut with a hot knife. Thermal performance is about 3x better than Celotex.

 

I had to use it when I built my extension. It was very expensive, time consuming to install (although would be much easier than anything other than sprayfoam in a boat) and quite dusty, but it did work and I will do it again when I uprate the insulation in the old parts of our house.

 

Alec

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, agg221 said:

Rather late to this thread, but the material you would use is silica aerogel blanket.

 

Thanks.

 

Is that the stuff widely known by the trade name "Thinsulate"?

 

 

[agg221]

11 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Thanks.

 

Is that the stuff widely known by the trade name "Thinsulate"?

 

 

No, it's different from Thinsulate. Both have polymer fibres but in the aerogel blanket the fibres are there to carry as much aerogel as possible, rather than to be the insulating material. The thermal performance is quite different - Thinsulate is around 0.05W/mK whereas aerogel blanket is around 0.015W/mK. The trade name is Spacetherm and it is made in the US and imported. There are much cheaper sources if you look carefully (which given that I had to clad all the walls of my extension 30mm thick and the ceiling 50mm thick I was heavily incentivised to do!) but this gives the general properties:

 

https://insulationmerchant.com/products/5mm-proctor-spacetherm-silica-aerogel-blanket-2400mm-x-1200mm-2-88m?variant=42489145622686&currency=GBP&gad_source=1

 

I actually ran some research projects on aerogels a few years ago. We were looking at dramatically cutting the cost of production, which is driven by a very slow process in very expensive kit. It worked, but did not go commercial as the company we were working with went under. We made up some plaster samples and pre-fab panels which were particularly effective. The monolithic material is very weird to handle - it weighs nothing, has an opalescent look and sucks all the oils and moisture out of your hand. The classic trick is to put a piece of it over a blowtorch with a flower on top and show it doesn't damage the flower even when the back face is glowing.

 

Alec

Edited December 23, 2023 by agg221

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, agg221 said:

The classic trick is to put a piece of it over a blowtorch with a flower on top and show it doesn't damage the flower even when the back face is glowing.

 

 

Astonishing, thanks!! 

 

 

3 minutes ago, agg221 said:

aerogel blanket is around 0.015W/mK

 

Again, amazing! 

 

 

[agg221]

If anyone really wants to know, this is the work I did on aerogels. Sanjeev Naik who is named at the bottom of the report led the project for me (he was part of my team).

 

https://cordis.europa.eu/project/id/260117/reporting

 

Not my image, but this is a picture of the standard demonstration for monolithic aerogel:

 

https://www.aerogel.org/?p=891&px=%2FClassic+Aerogel+Photos%2Ftheflower-lbl.jpg

 

Alec

Edited December 23, 2023 by agg221

[Matt Wardman]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Thanks.

 

Is that the stuff widely known by the trade name "Thinsulate"?

 

 

 

Alec has it right in his comment above. Thinsulate is not aerogel.

Thinsulate is a 3M product first used mainly in things such as anoraks, sleeping bags and similar since the 1970s. I first met it when I did Duke of Edinburgh Award scheme hiking in my .. er .. younger days. It was seen as slightly exotic in the same way as Goretex was back then - modern and hi-tec and what you wanted. Aerogel products are things like Spacetherm and Thermablok.

 

Aerogel is about 1/3 more space efficient than PIR (ie Celotex, 'Kingspan' or PIR spray foam), so 70mm of aerogel will do the same insulation job as approximately 100mm of PIR, everything else being equal. Aerogel was 'fragile' when it first appeared, but is now available bonded in plasterboard, in 'blankets' and similar, some of which compromise the performance slightly.  As pointed out, Thinsulate is about 1/5 less space efficient than PIR.

 

But aerogel costs more. An 8'x4' (ie 2.4mx1.2m) piece of 20mm aerogel blanket will cost around £4-500 (or ~£200 per sqm), whilst sprayed PIR is around £20 per sqm and equivalent sheet PIR is around £8-10 per sqm. Even with big quantity discounts and wheeler-dealing ,you won't bridge that gap. Aerogel is great stuff, but you've really got to need it.

The most effective insulation of all used domestically is perhaps Vaccuum Insulated Panels (VIPs), which are like the walls of a Thermos Flask, and have a thermal conductivity of around 0.005 W/mK. They are used in, for example, the casings of Heat Batteries for your house, such as Sunamp phase-change heat storage products, commonly used in highly insulated houses as a physically smaller and longer lasting alternative to water storage tanks.

With a Sunamp product, you can get about 7 kWh of heat storage in a unit the size of a 400mm wide under worktop cupboard, which is much smaller than an equivalent water tank and better insulated. And it will retain significant heat for a number of days, perhaps up to a week.

They are very heavy - the Sunamp Thermino 150 I am quoting specs for weighs 139kg. One of those babies will cost from about £2k, but can save a lot of space, and store heat for a long time. The "150" means it has energy to supply ~150l of hot water, or 185l at 40C.

That or the smaller Thermino 70 version (=85l hot water at 40C) could perthaps be an alternative to a electric calorifier in some form; there are versions that are solar powered with grid topup, or charge from a hot water circuit. Potentially a way to avoid using a genny to heat up water for a longer period, and lengthen the independence period in a low energy narrow boat?

Edited December 23, 2023 by Matt Wardman

[IanD]

51 minutes ago, Matt Wardman said:

 

Alec has it right in his comment above. Thinsulate is not aerogel.

Thinsulate is a 3M product first used mainly in things such as anoraks, sleeping bags and similar since the 1970s. I first met it when I did Duke of Edinburgh Award scheme hiking in my .. er .. younger days. It was seen as slightly exotic in the same way as Goretex was back then - modern and hi-tec and what you wanted. Aerogel products are things like Spacetherm and Thermablok.

 

Aerogel is about 1/3 more space efficient than PIR (ie Celotex, 'Kingspan' or PIR spray foam), so 70mm of aerogel will do the same insulation job as approximately 100mm of PIR, everything else being equal. Aerogel was 'fragile' when it first appeared, but is now available bonded in plasterboard, in 'blankets' and similar, some of which compromise the performance slightly.  As pointed out, Thinsulate is about 1/5 less space efficient than PIR.

 

But aerogel costs more. An 8'x4' (ie 2.4mx1.2m) piece of 20mm aerogel blanket will cost around £4-500 (or ~£200 per sqm), whilst sprayed PIR is around £20 per sqm and equivalent sheet PIR is around £8-10 per sqm. Even with big quantity discounts and wheeler-dealing ,you won't bridge that gap. Aerogel is great stuff, but you've really got to need it.

The most effective insulation of all used domestically is perhaps Vaccuum Insulated Panels (VIPs), which are like the walls of a Thermos Flask, and have a thermal conductivity of around 0.005 W/mK. They are used in, for example, the casings of Heat Batteries for your house, such as Sunamp phase-change heat storage products, commonly used in highly insulated houses as a physically smaller and longer lasting alternative to water storage tanks.

With a Sunamp product, you can get about 7 kWh of heat storage in a unit the size of a 400mm wide under worktop cupboard, which is much smaller than an equivalent water tank and better insulated. And it will retain significant heat for a number of days, perhaps up to a week.

They are very heavy - the Sunamp Thermino 150 I am quoting specs for weighs 139kg. One of those babies will cost from about £2k, but can save a lot of space, and store heat for a long time. The "150" means it has energy to supply ~150l of hot water, or 185l at 40C.

 

That or the smaller Thermino 70 version (=85l hot water at 40C) could perthaps be an alternative to a electric calorifier in some form; there are versions that are solar powered with grid topup, or charge from a hot water circuit. Potentially a way to avoid using a genny to heat up water for a longer period, and lengthen the independence period in a low energy narrow boat?

Thermal storage can help, a well insulated calorifier (mine has double the normal insulation thickness) does this to some extent. A much bigger thermal store like some have on wideboats would help more, but fitting them in on a narrowboat is difficult.

 

But neither this nor a marginal improvement in insulation (e.g. ludicrously expensive aerogel blanket vs. sprayfoam) is going to fix the fundamental problem with trying to avoid "burning stuff" on an electric narrowboat, which is energy demand exceeding renewable energy supply... 😞

Edited December 23, 2023 by IanD

[Matt Wardman]

17 hours ago, IanD said:

The LFP battery on my boat is 35kWh, I've run it from 100% SoC down to 10% once when the genny stopped working due to water in the diesel and I had to get to a boatyard.

 

0.33miles per kWh makes no sense, I found I was cruising at about 3mph on 3-4kW which is getting on for 3x better than this (1 mile per kWh).

 

Well spotted - thanks. In translation I think I turned my fraction upside-down, and will go back and correct.

The Mothership Marine numbers are around 0.33 kWh per mile, not 0.33 miles per kWh. This is the section from their FAQ:

 

How far can an electric boat travel on one charge?
The answer to this is very simple, mathematically speaking. Our narrowboats have a battery bank of 28.6kWh of which we can use up to 80% on an infrequent basis and 50% on a regular basis. 22.8kWh or 14.3kWh respectively. Or narrowboats use 1kW to move along at cruising speed. The actual speed through the water depends on factors such as how shallow the canal is which will reduce speed, however in good water conditions using 1kWh you should expect to travel about three miles.

 

Rounding up and just using 50% of the battery you therefore should expect to travel 42 miles. 
 

(Of course, this is afaics somewhat different in the other direction, but I'll leave that one for the narrowboat gods this morning 🙂.)