Replace Sterling Alternator, think it cooked my batteries

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, MtB said:

 

 

Another case of us failing to come up with answers to his actual questions.

 

But a bit later I did do my best to answer his questions re alternators and regulator. The lack of technical details in his links meant one could net be 100% sure.

[cuthound]

Like others I'm intrigued as to how the OP added water to an AGM battery. These are valve regulated sealed lead acid batteries, also known as recombination batteries, where the oxygen and hydrogen evolved during charging is recombined into a miniscule amount of water and absorbed into the glass mat to maintain the electrolyte within the battery.

 

Overcharging causes excessive gas production, which increases the internal pressure inside the battery. which lifts the valve and releases gas (electrolyte) to atmosphere.

 

I have seen thousands of this type of battery, and even when physically smashed open there is no liquid electrolyte present. The glass mat doesn't ever feel damp.

 

Finally none that I have seen have had any provision to top them up with water, not even through the pressure relief valve.

 

I think the OP's batteries are of the wet or possibly gel type.

[rusty69]

On 27/11/2023 at 20:27, cuthound said:

Like others I'm intrigued as to how the OP added water to an AGM battery

I guess we are not going to find out. 

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I guess we are not going to find out. 

 

We've already been told.

 

According to the OP in an earlier post in this thread his batts are Leoch "12V 110AH Xtreme AGM Leisure Battery (XR1750) NCC Class A

12V 110Ah fit-and-forget AGM lead-acid battery for multiple applications (LOW-FIT). "

 

These are, according to the listing he gives, "maintenance free" but he reckons there are removable caps which expose the glass mat. The mat seemed dry so he squirted some water in. Here is a pic of it:

 

One would imagine having removed those caps the batts are no longer sealed, and having added water to the gel they are probably totally goosed. 

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

We've already been told.

 

According to the OP in an earlier post in this thread his batts are Leoch "12V 110AH Xtreme AGM Leisure Battery (XR1750) NCC Class A

12V 110Ah fit-and-forget AGM lead-acid battery for multiple applications (LOW-FIT). "

 

These are, according to the listing he gives, "maintenance free" but he reckons there are removable caps which expose the glass mat. The mat seemed dry so he squirted some water in. Here is a pic of it:

 

That's true. However later on, I did ask where he got the procedure to do so, and how he determined the quantity of water to add (or words to that effect). 

 

 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

That's true. However later on, I did ask where he got the procedure to do so, and how he determined the quantity of water to add (or words to that effect). 

 

Ah, so your question made him realise the folly of removing them caps, prolly. I expect he'll be back shortly to thank the board for all it's good advice.

 

 

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

Ah, so your question made him realise the folly of removing them caps, prolly. I expect he'll be back shortly to thank the board for all it's good advice.

 

 

I've no idea. However I would expect he would have at least consulted the manufacturers prior to removal of the caps to acertain the procedure for adding more water. 

 

Armed with that information, and keen to share with his fellow boaters, it might have been nice to detail the procedure here, in these hallowed pages. 

[MtB]

Just now, rusty69 said:

I've no idea. However I would expect he would have at least consulted the manufacturers prior to removal of the caps to acertain the procedure for adding more water. 

 

Armed with that information, and keen to share with his fellow boaters, it might have been nice to detail the procedure here, in these hallowed pages. 

 

Ah but you miss my point. There is no procedure, and he had gone off piste by making up his own. Your question drew his attention to this fact, I suspect. 

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Ah but you miss my point. There is no procedure, and he had gone off piste by making up his own. Your question drew his attention to this fact, I suspect. 

Whaaat! You're shittin me. No procedure!! 

[Tony Brooks]

15 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Ah but you miss my point. There is no procedure, and he had gone off piste by making up his own. Your question drew his attention to this fact, I suspect. 

 

It mirrors the apparent rejection of any fault-finding procedure to isolate the area of the actual fault. All in all, I suspect a very imperfect understanding of his systems and the importance of logical fault-finding. Also, possibly an over reliance on the truth of marketing burb. I just hope he sorts it for minimum cost.

[MtB]

24 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Whaaat! You're shittin me. No procedure!! 

 

<Busted>

 

Well ok there IS a procedure. It goes like this:

 

1) Read the battery data sheet or manual

2) Note that it doesn't say the sealed plugs on this sealed battery are removable for topping up

3) Don't unseal the sealed battery by taking out the sealed plugs

 

Job done!

 

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

We've already been told.

 

According to the OP in an earlier post in this thread his batts are Leoch "12V 110AH Xtreme AGM Leisure Battery (XR1750) NCC Class A

12V 110Ah fit-and-forget AGM lead-acid battery for multiple applications (LOW-FIT). "

 

These are, according to the listing he gives, "maintenance free" but he reckons there are removable caps which expose the glass mat. The mat seemed dry so he squirted some water in. Here is a pic of it:

 

see

One would imagine having removed those caps the batts are no longer sealed, and having added water to the gel they are probably totally goosed. 

 

I've never seen an AGM battery with removable caps. As the electrolyte is not a free liquid (it is recombined from the oxygen and hydrogen evolved during charging) what would be the point?

 

I think @Tony Brooks has sussed it. Although the case says AGM they are not and it is marketing bolleax.

[rusty69]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

I've never seen an AGM battery with removable caps. As the electrolyte is not a free liquid (it is recombined from the oxygen and hydrogen evolved during charging) what would be the point?

 

I think @Tony Brooks has sussed it. Although the case says AGM they are not and it is marketing bolleax.

Or do they just use the same enlosure as their wet cell batteries?

 

Out of interest, what do the valves look like on these things? Do they look anything like a removable cap?

[magnetman]

On 27/11/2023 at 15:53, magnetman said:

That is the general idea yes.

 

I wonder if these are actually wet lead acid which have been labeled as AGM either erroneously or out of devilment.

Not sure which flavour I prefer.

 

There is 'stackexchange' which may come across as a valid site where someone has written this. 

 

Spot the obvious error

 

 

 

 

I think the fact they got the first whole word completely wrong is not a good sign. 

 

It reminds me a bit of when someone very knowledgeably told me that LPG stands for Liquefied Paraffin Gas

[Slim]

On 27/11/2023 at 15:44, rusty69 said:

Not on my leoch there isn't. At least I haven't seen one. 

 

Happy to learn though 

Well, my Leoch AGMs didn't have a sign of a valve or anything similar either. From memory the only way I would have been able to get to the plates etc would have been with a hammer and chisel. 

[TheBiscuits]

4 hours ago, rusty69 said:

it might have been nice to detail the procedure here, in these hallowed pages. 

 

It's in the special section, next to the lift bridge documents ...

 

[Bod]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

It's in the special section, next to the lift bridge documents ...

 

Now that is going back!

 

Bod

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Or do they just use the same enlosure as their wet cell batteries?

 

Out of interest, what do the valves look like on these things? Do they look anything like a removable cap?

 

They look like the one on this image  nothing like a removable cap.

 

3 hours ago, rusty69 said:

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by cuthound
Better image found

[sueanddaren]

At the very cheap end of the market some manufacturers have always used screw in caps on VRLA batteries, it allows them to get away with using standard lids and boxes. That said it does allow for the vent pressure to be pre tested before fitting. As for adding water to AGM, it can be done but you need a vacuum pump and a swap over filling head otherwise the water just sits on the top of the element. 

Without taking the whole battery apart and squeezing a sep between my fingers even I can't tell if the sep is too dry or not.

Back in the early 1980's Exide tried to get into the AGM telecoms market without really knowing what they were doing and got the alloys all wrong. The cells gassed too much and dried out in less than a year, they had teams going round to all the AT &  T sites adding water. Cost them a fortune and gave us (Chloride) an open market.

These days everyone knows how to make AGM, but I have still seen the odd Chinese company get it wrong.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, sueanddaren said:

At the very cheap end of the market some manufacturers have always used screw in caps on VRLA batteries, it allows them to get away with using standard lids and boxes. That said it does allow for the vent pressure to be pre tested before fitting. As for adding water to AGM, it can be done but you need a vacuum pump and a swap over filling head otherwise the water just sits on the top of the element. 

Without taking the whole battery apart and squeezing a sep between my fingers even I can't tell if the sep is too dry or not.

Back in the early 1980's Exide tried to get into the AGM telecoms market without really knowing what they were doing and got the alloys all wrong. The cells gassed too much and dried out in less than a year, they had teams going round to all the AT &  T sites adding water. Cost them a fortune and gave us (Chloride) an open market.

These days everyone knows how to make AGM, but I have still seen the odd Chinese company get it wrong.

 

Yes BT initially took VRSLA's from Chloride, Tungstone and Gates (Hawker Energy). All had a predicted 10 year life.

 

Only the Gates batteries achieved this, the others failing after as little as two years. It turned out that only Gates used pure lead plates and group bars and the other manufacturers used alloyed group bars and plates. The alloyed batteries were failing because group bar corrosion was causing the plates to fall off in extreme cases. This was exacerbated by the average temperature of the batteries being above 25 degrees C, which reduced battery life.

 

The only problem with the Gates batteries was the cost being twice that of their competitors. Eventually Tungstone went bust and Chloride guaranteed their batteries for seven years, and gave BT a rebate when they failed before that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sueanddaren]

7 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Yes BT initially took VRSLA's from Chloride, Tungstone and Gates (Hawker Energy). All had a predicted 10 year life.

 

Only the Gates batteries achieved this, the others failing after as little as two years. It turned out that only Gates used pure lead plates and group bars and the other manufacturers used alloyed group bars and plates. The alloyed batteries were failing because group bar corrosion was causing the plates to fall off in extreme cases. This was exacerbated by the average temperature of the batteries being above 25 degrees C, which reduced battery life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not quite, it was the Tungstone product that had the group bar corrosion, they put them down their automotive lines and used antimony in the neg group casting. The Chloride product was fine in most cases unless the temp of the exchange went too high, as the telecoms industry boomed they crammed more and more equipment into the exchanges this gave off allot of heat and that speeded up the pos grid corrosion. Ive been in one central London exchange that was at 37 deg C even in mid January. Even the Gates cells couldn't take that sort of temp for too long, nor could some of the exchange equipment, so they put air con eventually.

  

[cuthound]

17 hours ago, sueanddaren said:

Not quite, it was the Tungstone product that had the group bar corrosion, they put them down their automotive lines and used antimony in the neg group casting. The Chloride product was fine in most cases unless the temp of the exchange went too high, as the telecoms industry boomed they crammed more and more equipment into the exchanges this gave off allot of heat and that speeded up the pos grid corrosion. Ive been in one central London exchange that was at 37 deg C even in mid January. Even the Gates cells couldn't take that sort of temp for too long, nor could some of the exchange equipment, so they put air con eventually.

  

 

The Chloride product suffered group bar corrosion too, I dismantled many of these batteries from the mid 80's until the mid 20's when BT changed its sole supplier of VRSLA's to Yuasa, who made thin plate pure lead VRSLA's.

 

The high temperatures in the exchanges resulted from decisions made in the 70's to change from wet cells to VRSLA's and house them with the switch and transmission equipment rather than in their own dedicated battery rooms and to cool the equipment areas using fresh air cooling for up 85% of the year (the Air Handling Units contained a small compressor refrigeration unit as well as fans).  This was based on the outside temperature only being 35 degrees C or more once in a hundred years at the time of the decision, but by the mid 2000's it had became something that occurred most summers in the UK. As you say, the increasing equipment room temperatures resulted in the installation of full time air conditioning for the hotter exchanges. I have seen temperatures in excess of 50 degrees C in exchanges where the high summer ambient temperatures coincided with a mains failure.

 

I witnessed some "System X" tests at Plessey in the very early 80's where the switch and transmission equipment was still working at 70 degrees C, however the rate of change of temperature had to be closely managed to get the equipment up to that temperature and back down to normal again, and the batteries were useless after being subjected to that temperature for a few hours.

[sueanddaren]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

The Chloride product suffered group bar corrosion too, I dismantled many of these batteries from the mid 80's until the mid 20's when BT changed its sole supplier of VRSLA's to Yuasa, who made thin plate pure lead VRSLA's.

 

The high temperatures in the exchanges resulted from decisions made in the 70's to change from wet cells to VRSLA's and house them with the switch and transmission equipment rather than in their own dedicated battery rooms and to cool the equipment areas using fresh air cooling for up 85% of the year (the Air Handling Units contained a small compressor refrigeration unit as well as fans).  This was based on the outside temperature only being 35 degrees C or more once in a hundred years at the time of the decision, but by the mid 2000's it had became something that occurred most summers in the UK. As you say, the increasing equipment room temperatures resulted in the installation of full time air conditioning for the hotter exchanges. I have seen temperatures in excess of 50 degrees C in exchanges where the high summer ambient temperatures coincided with a mains failure.

 

I witnessed some "System X" tests at Plessey in the very early 80's where the switch and transmission equipment was still working at 70 degrees C, however the rate of change of temperature had to be closely managed to get the equipment up to that temperature and back down to normal again, and the batteries were useless after being subjected to that temperature for a few hours.

Sorry BT used the Yuasa EN100-6 which is a lead tin calcium product they don't have a thin plate pure lead product, only Gates (then called Hawker, now called Enersys) Northstar (again now part of Enersys) and Leoch had or have TPPL.

[cuthound]

9 minutes ago, sueanddaren said:

Sorry BT used the Yuasa EN100-6 which is a lead tin calcium product they don't have a thin plate pure lead product, only Gates (then called Hawker, now called Enersys) Northstar (again now part of Enersys) and Leoch had or have TPPL.

 

No, my colleague in headquarters liaised with Yuasa from 2000 to get their pure lead thin plate VRLSA's specifically to reduce the number of early life VRSLA failures. I left BT at the end of 2007, so they may have changed the specification since then. The Gates pure lead acid VRSLSA's used in the 80's certainly had much thicker plates than their competitors.

[sueanddaren]

8 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

No, my colleague in headquarters liaised with Yuasa from 2000 to get their pure lead thin plate VRLSA's specifically to reduce the number of early life VRSLA failures. I left BT at the end of 2007, so they may have changed the specification since then. The Gates pure lead acid VRSLSA's used in the 80's certainly had much thicker plates than their competitors.

Sorry Yuasa don't have or have ever had TPPL. You can't make TPPL on ordinary grid casters, you first have to roll the Lead to the thickness you want (normally around 1.4mm) then punch the grid. Around 2010 Enersys Newport managed to modify a concast machine to cast in pure and it took Leoch 5 years to copy that.