Incident with bridge keeper-Licence suspended

[Orwellian]

1 minute ago, Markblox said:

Pay attention, the licence is currently suspended but IF they revoke, that is the next step.

No I'm bored now and you don't deserve any help for being offensive.

[nb Innisfree]

Sounds like Canal & River Gestapo 

[Markblox]

1 minute ago, Orwellian said:

No I'm bored now and you don't deserve any help for being offensive.

That was after you said make your mind up.  Thanks for your input.

[agg221]

8 minutes ago, Markblox said:

Tried to do that but the file is too big.

Assuming you have an iPhone, the quickest way I have found is to open the picture on your phone, then screenshot it (hold the power button and press the button on the front once). Save the photo of the photo, use 'edit' (top right) and the crop function to remove everything you don't want shown and you should have a suitable resolution image to post.

 

Alec

 

(no, I am not that tech savvy, but I have 14yr old daughter who showed me how to do this...)

[Markblox]

7 minutes ago, Markblox said:

t say if the licence is revoked:

If you do not remove your boat these 28 days, the trust will either:

a) remove your boat from its waterways (where you do not live on your boat); or

b) start court proceedings to obtain an order that enables us to remove your boat from its waterways (where the boat is your home).

Tried to do that but the file is too big.

[nicknorman]

Are the bridge keepers on the G&S employees or volunteers?

 

Folk may remember that I was assaulted by a volunteer lock keeper - he hit me with his windlass - so I don’t have a lot of faith in CRT pitting officious poorly trained volunteers against boaters. It is a recipe for confrontation.

[Markblox]

3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Are the bridge keepers on the G&S employees or volunteers?

 

Folk may remember that I was assaulted by a volunteer lock keeper - he hit me with his windlass - so I don’t have a lot of faith in CRT pitting officious poorly trained volunteers against boaters. It is a recipe for confrontation.

I thought he is a volunteer but asked the question and was told he's an employee.

[haggis]

As has been said already, the fact that a C&RT employee has been murdered when carrying out is duties will make C&RT more protective of their employees and in my opinion, the OP comes over as a bit  aggressive in his actions and this thread. I think as has also been said that the OP should eat humble pie and apologise and hopefully that will see an end to the matter and he can move his boat wherever he wants, subject to stoppages, of course 🙂 

[Markblox]

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Markblox said:

Tried to do that but the file is too big.

 

If you take a screen shot of the image rather than try to upload the actual image it normally reduces the image to below the forum image size restriction. I find that is easier and quicker than using image editing software.

 

Edit - Missed that this had already been suggested.

Edited November 11, 2023 by M_JG
Edit - Missed that this had already been suggested.

[tree monkey]

1 hour ago, Markblox said:

Yes thank you, If anyone replies can you just read my carefully worded questions and if you can offer advice please do. Appreciated.

Yes, I have also found them good in the main too.  

I have been told the police were called and the CRT has said they will talk to me but I haven't heard from them.

The allegations are against the T&C's

If you are in need of services and food I would be inclined to speak to the police explain what you need to do and tell them where you will be and how to contact you.

 

I would do the same for CRT, email them tell them you need to move for basic services and tell them where you are going and when you expect to be there, tell being the important bit here, be polite but don't give them wriggle room

 

 

[Markblox]

4 minutes ago, haggis said:

As has been said already, the fact that a C&RT employee has been murdered when carrying out is duties will make C&RT more protective of their employees and in my opinion, the OP comes over as a bit  aggressive in his actions and this thread. I think as has also been said that the OP should eat humble pie and apologise and hopefully that will see an end to the matter and he can move his boat wherever he wants, subject to stoppages, of course 🙂 

I do agree that the CRT should be protective to their employees but obviously I'm  not going to go into song and verse especially as they could use anything I post against me.  Neither of us behaved in the proper way and I responded to the initiall abuse for the other party.  If you could go back to my original post you might see why I might appear a little agitated because I have beed replying to posts that are irrelevant to my questions.  Please all of you just go back to the beginning and  re read it rather than taking sides.

3 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

If you are in need of services and food I would be inclined to speak to the police explain what you need to do and tell them where you will be and how to contact you.

 

I would do the same for CRT, email them tell them you need to move for basic services and tell them where you are going and when you expect to be there, tell being the important bit here, be polite but don't give them wriggle room

 

 

Thanks very much.  Good advice and I have already told them (CRT) of the situation but they don't really want to go there.  They would be looking for any excuse I'm sure.

[MtB]

50 minutes ago, Markblox said:

If they revoke a licence you have 28 days to remove the boat from their waters unless you live aboard in which case they need a court order.

 

I don't think they need a court order.

 

With liveaboards it has been their usual practice but AIUI they are under no obligation to. They are just bending over backwards to be fair. 

 

Where violence towards CRT staff is involved, dispensing with the court order application seems entirely reasonable. 

[Markblox]

Just now, MtB said:

 

I don't think they need a court order.

 

With liveaboards it has been their usual practice but AIUI they are under no obligation to. They are just bending over backwards to be fair. 

 

Where violence towards CRT staff is involved, dispensing with the court order application seems entirely reasonable. 

According to their own letter they do need a court order.  Their allegation is that I  was violent towards their staff but I refute that and allege that he was violent towards me.  I have never dotted on here that I was initiated violence but it has been assumed many times.

[churchward]

3 hours ago, Markblox said:

I had an altercation with a bridge keeper recently, one where I received abuse, sent some back and moored up to ask why etc and then was assaulted and defended myself.  It was six of one and half a dozen of the other TBH.  That's all the details that are needed but the accusation in the suspension letter is partly accurate and partly incorrect.  They allege that it was all my fault.

Anyway, I reported this to the CRT within minutes  and heard nothing from them for eleven days until they pinned a letter to the mooring lines and in the letter said they had to investigate.  I sent them an account of what happened at that point and asked them why they hadn't contacted me.  They say I can't move the boat whilst the licence is suspended and was told by phone it would be suspended until next Tuesday the 14/11/23.  In a recent Email they now say the suspension is until 23/11/23.  I am a proper continuous cruiser and live aboard.  I am trapped on the Gloucester and Sharpness so can't even get to EA waterways as an option.  I now no longer want to be on the CRT waters tbh.  

 

It seems they have pre judged the situation because they never contacted me for my side of the story before suspending me.

 

My questions to you:

Can I move the boat to get food, water gas, diesel black tank etc, possibly under the ECHR article 8 because I don't intend to die of thirst, starvation or hypothermia?

In the event of having my licence revoked, what would be the timeline of them getting a court order and what might it cost me?

Would I have the option of leaving the network under my own steam or would it be overland transportation?

I want to avoid EA waterways until the spring.

I intend buying a house and selling the boat in two years time, when I receive my state pension and I can't wait!

Do the CRT exchange info with the EA?

 

 

 

I am sorry to hear of the incident.  It is normal in many situations to suspend things while the incident is investigated. It is not necessarily a judgment to suspend your license but as has been said above they can under the license conditions act as they have done.

 

If you can get food, water, and fuel on foot it would be best if you can do that and not move the boat. If your location means you cannot access food or water without moving then if I were in your position I would do so but make sure the boat returns to the mooring where you are now. I would also inform CRT if you need to move the boat and your reasons why.

 

As for the rest of your questions, I can't help you as I do not know what could happen next or what they may demand of you.

Edited November 11, 2023 by churchward

[Arthur Marshall]

2 minutes ago, Markblox said:

According to their own letter they do need a court order.  Their allegation is that I  was violent towards their staff but I refute that and allege that he was violent towards me.  I have never dotted on here that I was initiated violence but it has been assumed many times.

They choose to apply for a court order for liveaboard boats, but it seems there is no legal necessity for them to do so. I suspect it's partly due to them making someone homeless, and the CO then imposes obligations on other organisations to help. Possibly trying to equate with a landlord getting an eviction order and to avoid challenges under human rights legislation.

[nicknorman]

Just now, churchward said:

I am sorry to hear of the incident.  It is normal in many situations to suspend things while the incident is investigated. It is not necessarily a judgment to suspend your license but as has been said above they can under the license conditions act as they have done.

 

If you can get food, water, and fuel on foot it would be best if you can do that and not move the boat. If your location means you cannot access food or water without moving then if I were in your position I would do so but make sure the boat returns to the mooring where you are now. I would also inform CRT if you need to move the boat and your reasons why.

 

As for the rest of your questions, I can't help you as I do not know what could happen next or what they demand of you.

The licence conditions have no standing in law.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Markblox said:

According to their own letter they do need a court order.  Their allegation is that I  was violent towards their staff but I refute that and allege that he was violent towards me.  I have never dotted on here that I was initiated violence but it has been assumed many times.

 

Long shot - is there likely to be any form of CCTV at the site?? (not being familiar with that bit of the system)

[churchward]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

The licence conditions have no standing in law.

That is not true.  Any contractual terms and conditions have a standing in law but that does not mean there are other legal standing/laws that may take precedence over them.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

The licence conditions have no standing in law.

 

Not quite right AIUI. 

 

In a contract (which we enter into when applying for a licence) either party can sue the other for their losses and/or expenses resulting from breach of contract. 

 

 

[nicknorman]

Just now, Arthur Marshall said:

They choose to apply for a court order for liveaboard boats, but it seems there is no legal necessity for them to do so. I suspect it's partly due to them making someone homeless, and the CO then imposes obligations on other organisations to help. Possibly trying to equate with a landlord getting an eviction order and to avoid challenges under human rights legislation.

However I think the issue is that court order or not, CRT are not legally empowered to seize a boat that is licensed. They are only empowered to rescind a licence if one of the three terms of getting the licence is not present, and these of course are insurance, BSS, and in the case of a CCer, “satisfying the board that the boat will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period”. CRT are acting unlawfully if they rescind a licence because of one alleged inappropriate behaviour. There is no requirement in law to comply with any terms and conditions that CRT might like to make up, n order to have a licence.
 

Of course CRT will refute this and try to pretend that they do have such powers, right up until there is a risk it might go to court, at which point they will back down because they know they will lose.

[LadyG]

16 minutes ago, Markblox said:

I do agree that the CRT should be protective to their employees but obviously I'm  not going to go into song and verse especially as they could use anything I post against me.  Neither of us behaved in the proper way and I responded to the initiall abuse for the other party.  If you could go back to my original post you might see why I might appear a little agitated because I have beed replying to posts that are irrelevant to my questions.  Please all of you just go back to the beginning and  re read it rather than taking sides.

Thanks very much.  Good advice and I have already told them (CRT) of the situation but they don't really want to go there.  They would be looking for any excuse I'm sure.

You see, I think you are wrong, the CRT don't want to involve police, take court action etc etc. Its a bloody nuisance, it's  expensive and unpleasant 

Why don't you just accept the immediate current situation, carry fuel water and food, and your casette if necessary. 

Calm down and look at your options.

There is a  Waterways Chaplain who may assist in negotiations.

 

 

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, churchward said:

That is not true.  Any contractual terms and conditions have a standing in law but that does not mean there are other legal standing/laws that may take precedence over them.

It is not a contract, it is a statutory provision. Contract law doesn’t enter into it.

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, Orwellian said:

12.3.1. immediately suspend Your Licence. We will investigate to decide whether the breach can be put right. Whilst Your Licence is suspended You may not use the Boat to navigate on Our Waterways. The Boat must remain moored where We tell You whilst We investigate.

Whosoever is right or wrong here, the above course of action seems reasonable as a standard precaution whilst CRT investigate. If you had allegedly assaulted an official in most walks of life it is likely, and again probably reasonable, that there would be an immediate sanction placed upon you whilst the incident was investigated. Hearing your side of the story should be part of that forthcoming investigation, not in deciding the initial immediate action.

The investigation timescale doesn't seem unrealistic and CRT may yet find in your favour, so I'd say the correct action is to comply with their instructions. Actually, if you don't, then it's likely to totally undermine your own defence and the employee, if he is at fault, will not be held to account. 

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Not quite right AIUI. 

 

In a contract (which we enter into when applying for a licence) either party can sue the other for their losses and/or expenses resulting from breach of contract. 

 

There is no contract involved in obtaining a CRT licence. It is a statutory provision in the 1995 act. If the terms of the statute are complied with, CRT cannot refuse a licence. In the same way, you cannot be refused a TV licence just because OFCOM don’t like you.