Workshop to fix folding tiller.

[magnetman]

18 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

So you get up from being  head and shoulders doe the weed hatch to that in the back of your head

Removing the bar after each use does have its advantages

 

12 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

So just use something to hide the cut edge. Dip it into a bit of paint or use some tape. If a 1mm cutting disc is going to trash the chrome finish then so will the cutting tool on a lathe. It's a boat, personally I just wouldn't be that precious about it. 

Also worth considering how the hinge part is going to be fastened to the bar. I have not looked at these closely but presumably they are mechanically fastened rather than being glued. Maybe they are glued? If not then there must be some drilling required which would cause similar problems for the chrome plating. 

 

@Tigerrthere is a chance the thing is 316 stainless and therefore not magnetic, or aluminium. 

 

If it were polished stainless steel then it would be quite difficult to tell it apart from chromed brass. 

 

 

 

Aluminium can also be chrome plated successfully. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by magnetman

[gatekrash]

15 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

So you get up from being  head and shoulders doe the weed hatch to that in the back of your head

Been there, done exactly that with ours. It bloody hurts. Also managed to trap the fleshy edge of my finger in the joint when I was taking the tiller off and it unfolded onto it, which caused a huge blood blister and also bloody hurt.

 

However the Mrs loves the tiller so it's staying ! I just remember to check it's not folded up if I'm down the weed hatch.

[magnetman]

I wonder if one could cover it with something like a length of bicycle innertube which would flex as it moved. Maybe it wouldn't work with a 'sheath'. I'd be tempted to try it.

 

 

[Tigerr]

We had one for 10 yrs and nobody lost an eye, no fingers lost, nobody scalped, no disembowelling either.

Anyway - follow up question. 

The helm on the boat has a long (20cm) protrusion for mounting the tiller, with a pinhole at 10cm. Is there any reason not so shorten this back, (say to 15cm) so that the folded hinge is a tad less projected?

It's 1.25 inch solid steel - is that going to yield to a hacksaw and file chamfer or is that the way madness lies? 

[magnetman]

I think given it isn't usually a very tight fit that might make the tiller bar move more than would be desirable and possibly more likely to rattle. 

 

 

If you do cut it a slitting disc in the angle grinder is the right thing to use. 

[BEngo]

1 hour ago, Tigerr said:

It's 1.25 inch solid steel - is that going to yield to a hacksaw and file chamfer or is that the way madness lies? 

Your hacksaw technique will be top line by the time you get through that size bar! You will want the coarsest blade you can find, not the usual 18 or 24 tpi blade. File should chamfer it OK.

 

Use an angle grinder with a cutting disc if you *have* to cut it, but if you shorten the spigot much I expect the tiller will go rattly. Watch where the sparks go.

 

N

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Tigerr said:

We had one for 10 yrs and nobody lost an eye, no fingers lost, nobody scalped, no disembowelling either.

Anyway - follow up question. 

The helm on the boat has a long (20cm) protrusion for mounting the tiller, with a pinhole at 10cm. Is there any reason not so shorten this back, (say to 15cm) so that the folded hinge is a tad less projected?

It's 1.25 inch solid steel - is that going to yield to a hacksaw and file chamfer or is that the way madness lies? 

 

Every swan neck I have seen is tubular steel with a solid bar welded into.it.

 

If yours is like this then shortening the solid bar won't make the tiller shorter because the end of the tiller is up against the tube, not the solid bar welded into it.

 

If you want to shorten the tiller bar, cut the end off and drill a new hole to match the one in the solid bar.

Edited July 30, 2023 by cuthound
To remove a full stop masquerading as a space.

[magnetman]

Older boats have solid steel or in the case of actual old boats forged iron tiller swan necks. My 1986 Wednesbury built narrow boat had a solid steel bar the reduced size end having been machined down before the bending process. 

I also had a Les Allen boat once from the 70s which had an all solid arrangement.

It helps with steering if it is solid and there is less vibration. 

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Older boats have solid steel or in the case of actual old boats forged iron tiller swan necks. My 1986 Wednesbury built narrow boat had a solid steel bar the reduced size end having been machined down before the bending process. 

I also had a Les Allen boat once from the 70s which had an all solid arrangement.

It helps with steering if it is solid and there is less vibration. 

 

Every day is a school day. However if you cut off a part of the machined down end, the tiller bar will still be in the same position unless you machine down a part of the unmachined end - not easy once the bar has been formed into a swan neck.

[magnetman]

True. 

It seems that in this scenario the best thing is a fixed tiller bar which you remove when not in use and store somewhere sensible. Sometimes the old ways are in fact the best ways. 

 

The hinge part is further forward than a bare tiller and it is sharper. I personally think this is a seriously flawed design especially if there are two people with non identical behaviours. 

 

 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Older boats have solid steel or in the case of actual old boats forged iron tiller swan necks. My 1986 Wednesbury built narrow boat had a solid steel bar the reduced size end having been machined down before the bending process. 

I also had a Les Allen boat once from the 70s which had an all solid arrangement.

It helps with steering if it is solid and there is less vibration. 

 

I reckon the swan neck on my year 2000 Orion tug is solid bar too, from the sheer weight of it when the rudder stock came out of the bottom (cup) bearing. I could barely lift the tiller assembly using all my strength to put it back in. Getting it back in about 6th try was very lucky. I was about to give up and get the boat docked.

 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

Hand forged Z iron on NB YARMOUTH. 

 

Looks like it anyway. 

 

 

(Screenshot from the appalling duck advert)

Edited July 30, 2023 by magnetman

[Tigerr]

19 hours ago, magnetman said:

Removing the bar after each use does have its advantages

 

Also worth considering how the hinge part is going to be fastened to the bar. I have not looked at these closely but presumably they are mechanically fastened rather than being glued. Maybe they are glued? If not then there must be some drilling required which would cause similar problems for the chrome plating. 

 

@Tigerrthere is a chance the thing is 316 stainless and therefore not magnetic, or aluminium. 

 

If it were polished stainless steel then it would be quite difficult to tell it apart from chromed brass. 

 

 

 

Aluminium can also be chrome plated successfully. 

Turns out you are right it is polished stainless steel. 

 

The fix is a mallet driven push - at least that's what I am hoping! 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Tigerr

[magnetman]

Slitting disc is the right thing for stainless, and a round file to tidy up. 

 

Drilling is hard work. I used a carbide drill once in 316 stainless it was amazing but they are very brittle and can snap off. There is part of a carbide drill bit residing in the prop nut thread on a boat I used to own. Couldn't get it out. Other option is a Cobalt drill. Thats assuming you have to drill it for fastenings. 

 

 

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

Every day is a school day. However if you cut off a part of the machined down end, the tiller bar will still be in the same position unless you machine down a part of the unmachined end - not easy once the bar has been formed into a swan neck.

 

As the hinge part appears to have not yet been fitted I think the point was that it (hinge) could be moved further back in the tiller bar tube if the end of the thin part of the tiller was cut shorter.

It would not make any difference if the hinged tiller bar already existed but it seems that the hinged tiller bar is not yet made and customisation is allowed. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Tigerr said:

Turns out you are right it is polished stainless steel. 

 

The fix is a mallet driven push - at least that's what I am hoping! 

Before you chop anything you have checked the diameters haven't you, at least three times? Also will the plug bight in stainless steel, its a lot harder than brass.

[Tigerr]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

True. 

It seems that in this scenario the best thing is a fixed tiller bar which you remove when not in use and store somewhere sensible. Sometimes the old ways are in fact the best ways. 

 

The hinge part is further forward than a bare tiller and it is sharper. I personally think this is a seriously flawed design especially if there are two people with non identical behaviours. 

 

 

The misconception held by those with fixed tillers seems to be 'storage' is the reason for a hinge.

Nothing to do with that. Unless you take your tiller off at every lock. 

It's about 'cruising', and effective managegment of the boat and crew in movement.

Ten years with a lifting tiller has led us to expect instant easy crew access to the limited space of the stern for boarding crew.  No obstructions. Hop aboard with confidence that no barrier will suddenly present.

Nobody ever got hurt by it. In fact I'd suggest a fixed tiller is a bad (unsafe) design on a narrowboat withe a semi or trad stern and crew because it can sweep people off. I think there's a number of accidents that point to that, some fatal. 

Two weeks with a fixed 'boom' in the way has ben a pain the butt. Always in the way. Plus it whacks back on reverse like a weapon, and the end is far away. These things just didn't exist with a folder. Much better control. 

Frankly, we'd rather just lift it up and get on with boating. If that's OK with the traditionalists! 

Which is why I'm converting it. Stainless steel and all. 

But I didn't start this thread to debate, I just wanted some advice. Thanks for advice. 

16 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Slitting disc is the right thing for stainless, and a round file to tidy up. 

 

Drilling is hard work. I used a carbide drill once in 316 stainless it was amazing but they are very brittle and can snap off. There is part of a carbide drill bit residing in the prop nut thread on a boat I used to own. Couldn't get it out. Other option is a Cobalt drill. Thats assuming you have to drill it for fastenings. 

 

 

 

As the hinge part appears to have not yet been fitted I think the point was that it (hinge) could be moved further back in the tiller bar tube if the end of the thin part of the tiller was cut shorter.

It would not make any difference if the hinged tiller bar already existed but it seems that the hinged tiller bar is not yet made and customisation is allowed. 

 

 

You have understood my post. 

So, are DIY pipe cutters OK for the tiller? I see I can pay £200 or £29 on the internet. I'd buy £29 because Im only going to use it once. 

Jeez, I already sunk £100 for the hinge, and I'd really hope the £29 would work. 

I confess hacksaw hasn't gone well on this thick stainless. 

I'm up for the full Alcatraz experience with the tiller plug shortening on the helm. I have an angle grinder. 

Just got to remember not to wear specs as the last time I did that it destroyed my specs too. 

[magnetman]

Slitting discs are amazing. I destroyed a pair of Raybans once doing grinding. Didn't have anything else and had to do it. Terrible in a way. 

 

 

 

I see your point if you have crew who use the stern doors. I have never had any crew on my boats. 

I don't think a pipe cutter will go through if it is 316 (not magnetic at all) stainless. 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

Slitting discs are amazing. I destroyed a pair of Raybans once doing grinding. Didn't have anything else and had to do it. Terrible in a way. 

 

 

 

I see your point if you have crew who use the stern doors. I have never had any crew on my boats. 

I don't think a pipe cutter will go through if it is 316 (not magnetic at all) stainless. 

We use to cut smaller 316 with pipe cutters, about three quarters of an inch diameter but probably less wall thickness, but you did end up with a big inside burr to remove. 

[BEngo]

304 or 316 stainless is tough stuff.  Use a pipe cutter or masking tape to mark the cut line.  Then strike with a 1.0 mm stainless cutting disc in an angel grinder.  Go steady and don't force it.

Clear the burr with a round or half-round file.

 

If you fancy a day out, bring it to Somerset and I will fettle it for you.

 

N

[Tigerr]

So, finally established its brass and chrome plated, it was soft to the hacksaw, and after a bit I could see the filings were not bright silver. 

Cut it down OK with slitter and tape, filed flat end and internally chamfered. Neat job. Those thin slitters are a secret power aren't they. I was pretty pleased with myself. 

Now, fitting the hinge stubs into the tubes - blimey what a job! According to supplier it should be a 'snug push fit tapped in with a mallet, with a bit of grease'. 

It's very tight. Like rigid tight. Micrometer measures both components at 1.250(1) inches - with grip bands on the stubs. I can see bearing tolerances like that are valuable for mounting 16 inch guns but honestly - a tiller tube? 

Set up a rig with oak blocks and a channel to protect the hinge, and using a heavy oak beam block to knock it in. like a 15kg mallet.

Managing about a cm a day - and now down to the final inch. 

Going to have to get the blowtorch out, and risk the chrome delaminating, as it's set so solid with a further inch to go. 

I'd wondered if I could push it in using a heavy webbing strap loop and pulley ratchet but I don't think I can get enough pressure on it. Needs tons, not pounds. A hydraulic jack might work but I dont have a solid point to push against. 

If i'd known I'd just have bought a complete new unit. 

Update - giving up trying to push fit. Heated but no discernible movement on knocking.

It's stuck - going nowhere.

The last inch is going to need so much force it will break the hinge I think. So... fashion a thick leather stitched band to infil the gap as if it were a design feature, and file down the stub on the other side so it's more manageable. 

Sod it. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Tigerr

[Stilllearning]

When I read the start of this thread my first thought was along the lines of a) get a whole new one made, and b) learn to love the old one.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Tigerr said:

So, finally established its brass and chrome plated, it was soft to the hacksaw, and after a bit I could see the filings were not bright silver. 

Cut it down OK with slitter and tape, filed flat end and internally chamfered. Neat job. Those thin slitters are a secret power aren't they. I was pretty pleased with myself. 

Now, fitting the hinge stubs into the tubes - blimey what a job! According to supplier it should be a 'snug push fit tapped in with a mallet, with a bit of grease'. 

It's very tight. Like rigid tight. Micrometer measures both components at 1.250(1) inches - with grip bands on the stubs. I can see bearing tolerances like that are valuable for mounting 16 inch guns but honestly - a tiller tube? 

Set up a rig with oak blocks and a channel to protect the hinge, and using a heavy oak beam block to knock it in. like a 15kg mallet.

Managing about a cm a day - and now down to the final inch. 

Going to have to get the blowtorch out, and risk the chrome delaminating, as it's set so solid with a further inch to go. 

I'd wondered if I could push it in using a heavy webbing strap loop and pulley ratchet but I don't think I can get enough pressure on it. Needs tons, not pounds. A hydraulic jack might work but I dont have a solid point to push against. 

If i'd known I'd just have bought a complete new unit. 

Update - giving up trying to push fit. Heated but no discernible movement on knocking.

It's stuck - going nowhere.

The last inch is going to need so much force it will break the hinge I think. So... fashion a thick leather stitched band to infil the gap as if it were a design feature, and file down the stub on the other side so it's more manageable. 

Sod it. 

 

Ask some local second line garages to see if they have a hydraulic press. If they have they may be able to press it in. Such presses often sit on a heavy angle iron frame with an adjustable bed to sit the shaft on for pressing.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Tigerr said:

Update - giving up trying to push fit. Heated but no discernible movement on knocking.

By now the outer tube and inner hinge stub will be in such intimate contact that any heat in the outer tube is conducted into the inner stub, so they both expand together. Would have been better if you had heated the tube before knocking the hinge in.

[Hudds Lad]

Good luck with the tiller pin hole, i found this the worst bit when i was tasked with sorting a new longer tiller bar for the old shareboat.

Mr Reeves had not drilled the hole in the tiller arm central, so i had to drill a starter hole then mount the new one and line up and drill through using the arm as a drill guide for the second hole. Always in the back of my mind that if i muffed it, it was another trip to Midland Chandlers and £80 out of me own pocket (no way was the handle coming out again)  

[Tigerr]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

By now the outer tube and inner hinge stub will be in such intimate contact that any heat in the outer tube is conducted into the inner stub, so they both expand together. Would have been better if you had heated the tube before knocking the hinge in.

I did as it happens. The first half inch went in OK. The next half inch very hard. 

Maybe I should have gone further but cracking off the chrome is a risk. I've a surface thermometer and the tube has been at ^300c. 

But thanks for the 'after the event' advice. If you could be more specific and suggest how hot to take the outer chromed tube, now that would really be helpful! Even better if you'd done it yourself. 

I always love the 'I wouldn't start from here' advice of forum experts, but to be honest I prefer the ones that are actually helpful, and I will always respond positively to such assistance.

 No disrespect intended but I am sure you understand the irritation that arises from unhelpful smartarse comments! 

As it happens the heat transfer rate from the tiller tube to the stub will not be constant. The tube will heat much more than the 1.25 inch stub, faster because its thinner at the point of heating.  The stub is a larger thicker element and will heat slower, and expand slower.  So theoretically heat, ought to ease the piston grip. Up to the point where one cracks the chrome on the tube which basically fucks the job up. 

As it happens, that's not working. I suspect that the grip milling has indeed gripped so the friction effect is stronger.