Diesel Engines

[ditchcrawler]

Anyone with an interest in diesel engines this is worth watching on BBCiPlayer 

[BilgePump]

Putting that on the Watch list. Cheers. He's a good presenter, did a couple of series where he built a kit car and then a little plane.

[IanD]

11 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Anyone with an interest in diesel engines this is worth watching on BBCiPlayer 

Saw it some time ago, it's well worth a watch -- as are lots of other programmes in the Timeshift series... 🙂

[jonathanA]

and of course as we all know the compression ignition engine was first invented by an englishman called ackroyd and not Herr Diesel...  

 

https://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/articles/it-s-an-akroyd-not-a-diesel/#:~:text=However%2C when it comes to,to a brilliant British engineer.

[dmr]

9 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

and of course as we all know the compression ignition engine was first invented by an englishman called ackroyd and not Herr Diesel...  

 

https://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/articles/it-s-an-akroyd-not-a-diesel/#:~:text=However%2C when it comes to,to a brilliant British engineer.

 

I believe Ackroyd only invented the semi-diesel, his compression ratio was lower so extra heat was needed to start the engine. So, our modern "diesel" engines should really be called the "High Compression Ackroyd Engine" 😀

[Tonka]

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I believe Ackroyd only invented the semi-diesel, his compression ratio was lower so extra heat was needed to start the engine. So, our modern "diesel" engines should really be called the "High Compression Ackroyd Engine" 😀

Who are you going to call?

Diesel busters

 

 

 

Oh that was Dan Akroyd

[john.k]

Its claimed an engineer working for R.Hornsby &Son built the first compression ignition engine in 1892..........however it was of no interest to Hornsbys ,as their engines ran on tar ,and the provision of a refined fuel was considered outside their interests........Its also notable that Ackroyd Stuart claimed he was cheated  by Hornsbys,and had nothing further to do with them.

[Jon57]

44 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I believe Ackroyd only invented the semi-diesel, his compression ratio was lower so extra heat was needed to start the engine. So, our modern "diesel" engines should really be called the "High Compression Ackroyd Engine" 😀

Mines called a bitch when it's playing up. 😁

[robtheplod]

46 minutes ago, john.k said:

Its claimed an engineer working for R.Hornsby &Son built the first compression ignition engine in 1892..........however it was of no interest to Hornsbys ,as their engines ran on tar ,and the provision of a refined fuel was considered outside their interests........Its also notable that Ackroyd Stuart claimed he was cheated  by Hornsbys,and had nothing further to do with them.

'just stop oil' would wet themselves if this was about.......

 

thinking here, how long before they turn their attentions to dirty narrowboat engines..... would we notice their slow march? 

[john.k]

The many  gas works would dispose of tar by dumping in the nearest river ......however ,people who had to drink the water didnt like the tar ,and one of the earliest environmental orders was to stop dumping tar in rivers.

My first job was over the road from a gas works,a steam railway yard ,and an asbestos factory..........In those days you could wander around looking inside the gas works ,and the steam locos ,get a bucket of coal off the ground where it was spilt ,or up at the retorts where red hot coke was pushed out with streams of water hosed onto it ,and get a bucket full for the stove. at home.............never forget the smell of the gasworks .

[dmr]

4 hours ago, robtheplod said:

'just stop oil' would wet themselves if this was about.......

 

thinking here, how long before they turn their attentions to dirty narrowboat engines..... would we notice their slow march? 

 

I think its a very big potential problem. As more people adopt the "just stop oil" and "no wood burning stoves" way of thinking narrowboats and steam railways will be top of the hit list as they are much softer targets that air travel. I wonder how many "just stop oil" folk take overseas holidays?

 

Ideally we need to sort out the conundrum that government thinking has caused and start running on HVO even though its a lot more expensive. We could maybe agree to fly a little green flag or something to advertise this.

 

A lot of canal boats make a lot of smoke which is not good.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I think its a very big potential problem. As more people adopt the "just stop oil" and "no wood burning stoves" way of thinking narrowboats and steam railways will be top of the hit list as they are much softer targets that air travel. I wonder how many "just stop oil" folk take overseas holidays?

 

Ideally we need to sort out the conundrum that government thinking has caused and start running on HVO even though its a lot more expensive. We could maybe agree to fly a little green flag or something to advertise this.

 

A lot of canal boats make a lot of smoke which is not good.

 

Like classic/vintage/veteran cars, I doubt that heritage steam railways will be targeted from an emissions point of view, since the numbers and usage (total emissions) are tiny compared to cars/trucks/ships/planes/heating. Might get NIMBYs objecting to smuts on their washing lines, but that's no different to today.

 

Same issue with canal boats, either propulsion or heating -- the numbers and total emissions are tiny (about 1% compared to cars or woodburning stoves in houses?), but there are likely to be local objections e.g. from canalside flatowners objecting to smoke/noise/diesel fumes.

 

HVO is a much better solution than diesel for the canals -- or electric boats, in the short term -- but distribution and pricing and taxation needs to be sorted out before it could be widely adopted.

Edited July 5, 2023 by IanD

[Tonka]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Like classic/vintage/veteran cars, I doubt that heritage steam railways will be targeted from an emissions point of view, since the numbers and usage (total emissions) are tiny compared to cars/trucks/ships/planes/heating. Might get NIMBYs objecting to smuts on their washing lines, but that's no different to today.

 

Same issue with canal boats, either propulsion or heating -- the numbers and total emissions are tiny (about 1% compared to cars or woodburning stoves in houses?), but there are likely to be local objections e.g. from canalside flatowners objecting to smoke/noise/diesel fumes.

 

HVO is a much better solution than diesel for the canals -- or electric boats, in the short term -- but distribution and pricing and taxation needs to be sorted out before it could be widely adopted.

Why does HVO need to be taxed?

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Why does HVO need to be taxed?

 

Logically the fuel duty should be lower on HVO than diesel to encourage its use by closing the price gap, because it's much better environmentally.

 

That could/should be done by a government which actually cares about the environment and acts on it, rather than making impressive-sounding announcements with no real thought about how to make change actually happen... 😞

Edited July 5, 2023 by IanD

[Tonka]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Logically the fuel duty should be lower on HVO than diesel to encourage its use by closing the price gap, because it's much better environmentally.

 

That could/should be done by a government which actually cares about the environment and acts on it, rather than making impressive-sounding announcements with no real thought about how to make change actually happen... 😞

So why tax it at all

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, Tonka said:

So why tax it at all

Because with no tax it would be cheaper than diesel, which would encourage diesel car drivers to use it, and even if this was legal there isn't enough supply to cope with this?

 

The reason boaters won't use it right now is it's a lot more expensive than diesel, always assuming you can get hold of any. If it was the same price than there's no reason not to shift to HVO, in fact the opposite since all the reports say that it burns cleaner and smells less than diesel fuel.

Edited July 5, 2023 by IanD

[dmr]

40 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Why does HVO need to be taxed?

 

Good question

At the moment HVO is 58p per litre more expensive than deisel so only the dedicated eco types are going to use it (if they can get it at all).

Initially a 20p difference was suggested so things have gone badly wrong.

If it was too cheap then everybody would use it and there would not be enough to go round.

In an ideal world the government would control the price so that it is just a bit more expensive, and control its use to give priority to users (like us boaters 😀) who don't really have an option to go electric.

I believe that somewhere, possibly Sweden, did remove the tax and it became very popular, I don't know if and how they got enough of the stuff to meet the demand.

[Tonka]

6 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Good question

At the moment HVO is 58p per litre more expensive than deisel so only the dedicated eco types are going to use it (if they can get it at all).

Initially a 20p difference was suggested so things have gone badly wrong.

If it was too cheap then everybody would use it and there would not be enough to go round.

In an ideal world the government would control the price so that it is just a bit more expensive, and control its use to give priority to users (like us boaters 😀) who don't really have an option to go electric.

I believe that somewhere, possibly Sweden, did remove the tax and it became very popular, I don't know if and how they got enough of the stuff to meet the demand.

Because I now see Boiler Juice are talking about HVO being used in Oil Boilers

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Because I now see Boiler Juice are talking about HVO being used in Oil Boilers

 

Yes, I saw this. I thought HVO could not be used for heating, or maybe it just has a different subsidy or whatever.

However as far as I can see BoilerJuice are selling very expensive boxes of white HVO so this must be intended for road use.

 

I would like to know what the maximum quantity of HVO the world could produce in a sustainable way is, and how close we are to that now.

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

 

Yes, I saw this. I thought HVO could not be used for heating, or maybe it just has a different subsidy or whatever.

However as far as I can see BoilerJuice are selling very expensive boxes of white HVO so this must be intended for road use.

 

I would like to know what the maximum quantity of HVO the world could produce in a sustainable way is, and how close we are to that now.

Well the new oil burners that are fitted to new Worcester Bosch and Grant oil boilers are HVO compatible 

[dmr]

11 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Well the new oil burners that are fitted to new Worcester Bosch and Grant oil boilers are HVO compatible 

 

I assume this means they can burn diesel as well as Kerosine as HVO is the same as diesel. I am not aware of "HVO Kerosine" though I have not really looked.

If I were to get a delivery of HVO then I believe that I would have to sign a declaration stating that I will not use it for heating. Again this might be a subsidy thing but I have not seen "HVO for heating" for sale.

[Tonka]

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I assume this means they can burn diesel as well as Kerosine as HVO is the same as diesel. I am not aware of "HVO Kerosine" though I have not really looked.

If I were to get a delivery of HVO then I believe that I would have to sign a declaration stating that I will not use it for heating. Again this might be a subsidy thing but I have not seen "HVO for heating" for sale.

 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Like classic/vintage/veteran cars, I doubt that heritage steam railways will be targeted from an emissions point of view, since the numbers and usage (total emissions) are tiny compared to cars/trucks/ships/planes/heating. Might get NIMBYs objecting to smuts on their washing lines, but that's no different to today.

 

 

They already struggle for fuel

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

 

 

I think the question mark is the key thing here and I read somewhere that there is a pressure group pressing for HVO to be allowed for heating. Except for a few totally off grid properties the chosen direction appears to be heat pumps and this is the way to go as long as we can generate and transmit enough reliable electricity.

6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

They already struggle for fuel

 

Yes, I don't think the government will intentionally outlaw canal boats or steam railways but we might suffer from collateral damage. I suspect public opinion (and the Guardian 😀) will be the bigger problem. I have already read reports of right on members of the public shouting at "polluting" boats.

As we both have exhaust chimneys sticking out of the roof we will be in big trouble 😀.

[alan_fincher]

An interesting video - thanks for the link.

 

I was intrigued to see one Alan Vessey interviewed in the topic of the Deltic engine.  As a youth I enjoyed invites to Alan's O gauge garden railway, mostly clockwork but with some live steam.   Since then I'm aware of Alan's long term involvement at  the Quainton Road railway preservation site, (now rebranded as Buckinghamshire Railway Centre.  Various "steam" publications have also shown his major involvement in restoring Great Western express locomotives.

My last face to face contact with Alan was at my mother's funeral.

Great to see he is still with us - an interesting man indeed.