Is there much of a difference between LPWS and LPW Lister Engine

[SiFi]

I'm being offered a LPWS4 or LPW4 Lister engine. Both have been reconditioned but the LPW4 is considerably cheaper.

[Tracy D'arth]

LPWS is indirect injection, LPW is direct injection

[Tony Brooks]

Do they both have hydraulic valve lifters, do you know? That would be the decider for me - not to have the one with hydraulic lifters.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[Eeyore]

You may need to consider who reconditioned them. There are Lister experts, and then there are ........

[RLWP]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Do they both have hydraulic valve lifters, do you know? That would be the decider for me - not to have the one with hydraulic lifters.

 

The difference is direct and indirect injection, so different heads and injectors. The rest of the engine is the same

 

The lifters are the same as in Fords and the Rover V8

 

Richard

[Tracy D'arth]

38 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Do they both have hydraulic valve lifters, do you know? That would be the decider for me - not to have the one with hydraulic lifters.

All the Alpha engines have hydraulic lifters. There is nothing much to worry about them, many engines use them and the Yanks have used them for over 80 years I believe.

[Peugeot 106]

Why don’t you ask the Technical Manager at Lister Petter. I’m not sure who owns them at the moment. Failing that ask Beta who always seem most down to earth and helpful. ( I heard that Beta was started by ex Lister personnel)

 

I think but might be wrong that the head and injection pressures are higher on the indirect LPWS. I also heard that the LPW was slightly more powerful but needed more cooling if this might be an issue. Also with the LPWS and it’s 100hour oil changes versus 250 hours for LPW you will need to carry a fair amount of replacement oil and filters if you are away from base for any length of time with a big 4 cylinder engine.

 

PS they are all generically called Alpha or Canalstar engines and all have hydraulic lifters. Guess where I’ve heard the Beta name came from…..

 

seem to be a lot more industrial LPW engines around for spares

sincerely sorry about your old engine

[Tonka]

24 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Why don’t you ask the Technical Manager at Lister Petter. I’m not sure who owns them at the moment. Failing that ask Beta who always seem most down to earth and helpful. ( I heard that Beta was started by ex Lister personnel)

 

I think but might be wrong that the head and injection pressures are higher on the indirect LPWS. I also heard that the LPW was slightly more powerful but needed more cooling if this might be an issue. Also with the LPWS and it’s 100hour oil changes versus 250 hours for LPW you will need to carry a fair amount of replacement oil and filters if you are away from base for any length of time with a big 4 cylinder engine.

 

PS they are all generically called Alpha or Canalstar engines and all have hydraulic lifters. Guess where I’ve heard the Beta name came from…..

 

seem to be a lot more industrial LPW engines around for spares

sincerely sorry about your old engine

I think Sleeman and Hawken own Lister Petter

https://www.sleeman-hawken.com/

[Tracy D'arth]

I have never understood the 100 hour oil change routine for the LPWS engines when the only difference is a precombustion chamber in the head.

The old BMC engines were indirect and they will tolerate much longer oil change intervals, 250 to 400 hours by some without problems.

There is some merit in only changing oil filters every other change, I and many others do and have no problems.

[Peugeot 106]

17 minutes ago, Tonka said:

I think Sleeman and Hawken own Lister Petter

https://www.sleeman-hawken.com/

No longer according to Keith Mason the  MD and anyway they are excellent at spares but deny any knowledge of the workings of the engines. How about contacting Lister Petter USA. 

[Tonka]

6 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

No longer according to Keith Mason the  MD and anyway they are excellent at spares but deny any knowledge of the workings of the engines. How about contacting Lister Petter USA. 

Sold last year to Lister Petter Co Ltd.

Not sure who provided the money.

Found this info on the luster Petter websitr

[Peugeot 106]

38 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I have never understood the 100 hour oil change routine for the LPWS engines when the only difference is a precombustion chamber in the head.

The old BMC engines were indirect and they will tolerate much longer oil change intervals, 250 to 400 hours by some without problems.

There is some merit in only changing oil filters every other change, I and many others do and have no problems.

I don’t understand either but I still change every 100 hours oil and filter. But mines only 2 cylinder so half the oil needed.

I’ve said before it’s due to oil contamination on start up which isn’t so bad on the LPW so I’m told. Is it more and dirtier combustion gasses getting into crankcase  of LPWS before it settles down due to increased combustion pressure?  I can’t remember!

 

Also correct oil is important

10 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Sold last year to Lister Petter Co Ltd.

Not sure who provided the money.

Found this info on the luster Petter websitr

Good luck finding anyone helpful. I think they concentrate on selling gen sets etc to third world country’s. Lister Petter seem to promote their engines for leisure marine through agentsnetc and not get involved themselves. Beta seem much more proactive in keeping their home market happy 

For engine rebuilds can I suggest GEM engineering Dorset, Cotswold Diesel Engines, Stationary Engine Parts, there is another company in Hull. Nothing against Real Diesels and I’m assuming as always RLWP has a massive waiting list 

PS if you have the time it would be very instructive to be able to watch “help” the reassembly and test. Most of the engineers are one man bands and it should be possible for a consideration. You could become one of our LPW experts!

Compression ratio LOW 16:1 LPWS 22:1 hence dirtier oil because of more blowby before cylinder warms up and rings bed in

 

[john.k]

Id think it likely that a swirl chamber motor would be better for light running ,less  or no white smoke.

[Jess--]

14 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I have never understood the 100 hour oil change routine for the LPWS engines when the only difference is a precombustion chamber in the head.

The old BMC engines were indirect and they will tolerate much longer oil change intervals, 250 to 400 hours by some without problems.

There is some merit in only changing oil filters every other change, I and many others do and have no problems.

we always found that consistently between 80-85 hours our lpws4 would start to hunt slightly at our usual cruising speed (slightly faster or slower was rock solid), we always took it as a sign that we needed to change the oil in 2 days time (presumably it was because we had wear on the rack at the most used position).

With practice we got the oil change down to around 30 mins.

[SiFi]

It sounds that there is little difference between the LPW and the LPWS. Maybe there are many more LPWs around, this might explain why a LPW reconditioned engine does not command the higher price of a Lister LPWS.

 

Here is the link to RealDiesels's reconditioned engine spec. https://www.realdiesels.co.uk/enginespecification.html

[Tony Brooks]

A direct injection engine will normally be far easier to start in cold weather than an indirect injection one and if it runs at higher speeds use a bit less fuel, but against that you have to set the direct injection diesel's propensity to smoke at low speeds and powers, and in the case of these Listers the low oil change intervals.

[Peugeot 106]

Oil change isn’t such a big deal. I use a pela and cut up milk bottle to catch the filter.

Steve56 who posts on here is helpful. I think he used to work for Listers and knows about Narrowboats (he may even have one?)

By the way the reconditioning companies I gave you are all Lister “specialists” what do Real diesels say? They have been helpful when I have spoken to them.

 

one difficulty is there are many ex lister employees around some with their own business and I really wouldn’t know how to sort out the wheat from the chaff

[john.k]

A recondition can run from a valve grind and new rings all the way to discarding everything bar the block and covers ,and making an engine to new standards......and anything in between......Obviously cost is going to be very different................One time Perkins used to sell what they claimed was a  remanufactured long engine ,but was actually all new ....it was .called the "Perkins Perpetuity Plan".........used was a big tax saving on new.

[RLWP]

On 04/07/2023 at 19:20, Peugeot 106 said:

and I’m assuming as always RLWP has a massive waiting list 

 

 

 

You can always ask! We do lots of work with Alphas, I'd be up for having a look at this one

 

Richard

[SiFi]

Hi Richard, if you can make it to the GUC Slough Arm I would really appreciate your help.  I'll email you my email address and phone number.

 

I'm going to have another go with my troublesome alpha in the morning. Remove the exhaust manifold to get at the injection pumps, to soak them clean and if it goes well then maybe see if I can remove the head. This is all a bit scary but the forum has given me some confidence about the pitfalls and the people I can call upon if it all goes belly-up. Thanks, Simon

Edited July 5, 2023 by SiFi

[Peugeot 106]

19 minutes ago, SiFi said:

Hi Richard, if you can make it to the GUC Slough Arm I would really appreciate your help.  I'll email you my email address and phone number.

 

I'm going to have another go with my troublesome alpha in the morning. Remove the exhaust manifold to get at the injection pumps, to soak them clean and if it goes well then maybe see if I can remove the head. This is all a bit scary but the forum has given me some confidence about the pitfalls and the people I can call upon if it all goes belly-up. Thanks, Simon

When you take injection pumps keep the shims with each pump. I think it may be wise to leave one in then when you replace them you twist anti-clockwise ( or clockwise I can’t remember) to retain the setting. Maybe worth asking Richard about this if you are ringing him, Don’t worry about taking the head off it’s not so bad and you know about draining the oil down for the hydraulic tappets. Interested to know what Richard thinks about reusing the head bolts and skimming the head? Some people say you can’t skim LPWS and others say they have skimmed hundreds !

there’s an awful lot of urban myth surrounding these engines probably caused by Lister Petter not being interested in supporting their own product. Must have been easy for Beta to take the market……..but maybe it makes good financial sense to ignore leisure customers (For lister petter)

 

good luck. They are a decent little engine do let us know how you get on. Last tip as an amateur mechanic I am rigouroys about using correct torque and wrenches as per the manual. They are all specified in the manual and I just don’t have the “feel” to do without although I’m sure mechanics don’t feel

the need. Tools are cheap compared to the cost of  marine engineer

All very best 

[Steve56]

5 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

When you take injection pumps keep the shims with each pump. I think it may be wise to leave one in then when you replace them you twist anti-clockwise ( or clockwise I can’t remember) to retain the setting. Maybe worth asking Richard about this if you are ringing him, Don’t worry about taking the head off it’s not so bad and you know about draining the oil down for the hydraulic tappets. Interested to know what Richard thinks about reusing the head bolts and skimming the head? Some people say you can’t skim LPWS and others say they have skimmed hundreds !

there’s an awful lot of urban myth surrounding these engines probably caused by Lister Petter not being interested in supporting their own product. Must have been easy for Beta to take the market……..but maybe it makes good financial sense to ignore leisure customers (For lister petter)

 

good luck. They are a decent little engine do let us know how you get on. Last tip as an amateur mechanic I am rigouroys about using correct torque and wrenches as per the manual. They are all specified in the manual and I just don’t have the “feel” to do without although I’m sure mechanics don’t feel

the need. Tools are cheap compared to the cost of  marine engineer

All very best 

When injection pumps are removed from these engines the shims stay with the block, not the pump. The reason for this is that the pumps are pre shimmed on manufacture, so every pump will be the same. Any differences will be with the tolerances on the crankcase and fuel pump tappets. As you say it is possible to always leave on pump in to keep the setting. If done this way it is important to wind the stop lever back so it is the pump, not the stop lever holding the rack in position.

The problem with support is that when the engine was originally built it was built by Lister Petter themselves who would give all the support needed. When Lister Petter shut down many years ago the name was sold on and there have been a number of owners over the years. I suppose another thing is that when the original engine was built it was all built in house at Dursley. This would include all the casting in there own foundry, all machining in there own machine shop. So Lister had total control of the quality. After the shut down of the factory and when made elsewhere it was more just an assembly operation with parts being supplied by outside contactors, and not all of them UK based. Going back there were a number of the ex Lister engineers, including myself that started working for themselves. Unfortunately as far as I am aware most of us have now retired.

[RLWP]

3 hours ago, Steve56 said:

When injection pumps are removed from these engines the shims stay with the block, not the pump. The reason for this is that the pumps are pre shimmed on manufacture, so every pump will be the same.

 

Shims are available, and the shimming instructions are in the manual

 

9 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

When you take injection pumps keep the shims with each pump. I think it may be wise to leave one in then when you replace them you twist anti-clockwise ( or clockwise I can’t remember) to retain the setting. Maybe worth asking Richard about this if you are ringing him, Don’t worry about taking the head off it’s not so bad and you know about draining the oil down for the hydraulic tappets. Interested to know what Richard thinks about reusing the head bolts and skimming the head? Some people say you can’t skim LPWS and others say they have skimmed hundreds !

 

 

We always skim heads

 

To remove the pumps, push the stop lever across to the stop position, that aligns the lever with the hole in the casting to remove them. Unless you want to reset them which needs a special tool, best to remove them one at at time and put the pump back when you've finished with it. Stop lever to stop, put the pup in and twist anticlockwise before clamping down. It often isn't that easy...

 

10 hours ago, SiFi said:

Hi Richard, if you can make it to the GUC Slough Arm I would really appreciate your help.  I'll email you my email address and phone number.

 

Email received, I'll get Sue to call you

 

Richard

[Tonka]

9 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

When you take injection pumps keep the shims with each pump. I think it may be wise to leave one in then when you replace them you twist anti-clockwise ( or clockwise I can’t remember) to retain the setting. Maybe worth asking Richard about this if you are ringing him, Don’t worry about taking the head off it’s not so bad and you know about draining the oil down for the hydraulic tappets. Interested to know what Richard thinks about reusing the head bolts and skimming the head? Some people say you can’t skim LPWS and others say they have skimmed hundreds !

there’s an awful lot of urban myth surrounding these engines probably caused by Lister Petter not being interested in supporting their own product. Must have been easy for Beta to take the market……..but maybe it makes good financial sense to ignore leisure customers (For lister petter)

 

good luck. They are a decent little engine do let us know how you get on. Last tip as an amateur mechanic I am rigouroys about using correct torque and wrenches as per the manual. They are all specified in the manual and I just don’t have the “feel” to do without although I’m sure mechanics don’t feel

the need. Tools are cheap compared to the cost of  marine engineer

All very best 

And your torque wrench was calibrated when?

[Peugeot 106]

59 minutes ago, Tonka said:

And your torque wrench was calibrated when?

I have three. None was expensive but all claim to have been calibrated. I have checked them and they are all pretty good  when compared with the ones at my local agricultural engineer or a weight in a vice.

Anyway my arm or wrist has never been calibrated, or had much practice and is as fallible as the rest of my elderly body. It has stripped more threads in its younger days on old cars and motorbikes than I care to remember. One time I had to ask a passer by to get a click on the wrench for the gear end nut!   The Lister manual specifies the torque for almost every fastening so it may as well be used. 

There are a lot of aluminium covers with low torque requirements on Alphas

I’m just trying to offer suggestions as to how to reduce the risk of errors (in this case stripped threads and oil leaks )for amateur mechanics like me. I’m certainly not telling professionals which maybe you are what to do

 

I would suggest to anybody that if you feel the need check torque wrenches by comparing them against those at their local garage or engineers for critical items. The other way that I know of is by hanging weights.