Richard Parry Responds to my Email About Tarmacking Over the Towpaths

[magnetman]

There is that. 

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

Or someone doesn't like messy outdoor work so spends the Dosh on signs instead of a tub of paddle gear grease or whatever else would make life better ON water. 

 

Or somebody who runs the canals has KPIs imposed on them by the government to encourage towpath use by "millions of people" -- things like better surfaces and signage -- with the threat of a reduced block grant if these aren't met, meaning boaters would have to pay more as a result *and* probably get poorer service than now -- if that's possible... 😞

 

What would you do in that case -- stand up to the government and say "I want to spend the money on fixing locks for 35000 boaters not signs for X million people" even if this means less money to spend on boaters as a result, or take the money and put more blue signs up? 😉

 

In an ideal world there would be enough money to maintain the canals properly for everyone, boaters included. In the real world, according to the government a few boaters are lower priority than a large number of walkers and cyclists -- and they can afford to pay a bigger license fee... 😞

Edited June 26, 2023 by IanD

[Tonka]

Isn't Tarmac a brand name and misused like Hoover

[Mike Todd]

What is this surface called? (Ufton to Aldermaston unfinished project)

 

As a non-specialist, I'd call this tarmac but perhaps someone with more knowledge can correct me. 

[IanD]

Just now, Tonka said:

Isn't Tarmac a brand name and misused like Hoover

Capitalised like that, yes it's a brand name/company name/trademark. But "tarmacadam" (or "tarmac" for short) is the recognised engineering term for the surface named after its inventor, like macadam (the same without the tar) or concrete (not named after anyone).

Just now, Mike Todd said:

What is this surface called? (Ufton to Aldermaston unfinished project)

 

As a non-specialist, I'd call this tarmac but perhaps someone with more knowledge can correct me. 

That *is* tarmac 🙂

[magnetman]

Also the word used was 'tarmacking' which is actually a verb. It is generic and can apply to other similar surfaces. 

 

'Blessèd are the cheesemakers' does not only apply to people who make cheese. 

5 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

What is this surface called? (Ufton to Aldermaston unfinished project)

 

As a non-specialist, I'd call this tarmac but perhaps someone with more knowledge can correct me. 

Unfinished? 

 

Does it need a little white line down the middle with gaps? 

 

What about double yellows and duck lanes.

Or maybe they need some signage 

 

That should sort it. 

 

 

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Also the word used was 'tarmacking' which is actually a verb. It is generic and can apply to other similar surfaces. 

 

'Blessèd are the cheesemakers' does not only apply to people who make cheese. 

Unfinished? 

 

Does it need a little white line down the middle with gaps? 

 

What about double yellows and duck lanes.

Or maybe they need some signage 

 

That should sort it. 

 

 

I said that the project is unfinished - this is from the Ufton end. Soon after it is part complete, without the top surface. Further on they have not started. The stoppage notice for the towpath implies that the project has been suspended for some  unstated reason. At the beginning of the month I posted some photos which concentrated on what was my main concern at the time, the quality of the work, especially in relation to holding up the path where it comes perilously close to the edge. This thread had not started then and the focus has been more on the appearance not the substance of the scheme. In any event, it might behove Richard parry to take a closer look at it - although it may be that he suspension of work indicates that someone already has!

[Ronaldo47]

3 hours ago, magnetman said:

Or maybe they need some signage 

 

That should sort it. 

 

 

As has previously been pointed out on this forum, speed limits on public roads only apply to motor vehicles. Speeding cyclists can only be prosecuted for riding furiously.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Ronaldo47

[Allan(nb Albert)]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Or somebody who runs the canals has KPIs imposed on them by the government to encourage towpath use by "millions of people" -- things like better surfaces and signage -- with the threat of a reduced block grant if these aren't met, meaning boaters would have to pay more as a result *and* probably get poorer service than now -- if that's possible... 😞

 

What would you do in that case -- stand up to the government and say "I want to spend the money on fixing locks for 35000 boaters not signs for X million people" even if this means less money to spend on boaters as a result, or take the money and put more blue signs up? 😉

 

In an ideal world there would be enough money to maintain the canals properly for everyone, boaters included. In the real world, according to the government a few boaters are lower priority than a large number of walkers and cyclists -- and they can afford to pay a bigger license fee... 😞

Despite overwelming evidence to the contrary, you still cling to the view that government somehow imposed charitable status on an unwilling British Waterways.

 

It takes two to tango. BW (Hales and Evans), had been pushing for this since 2003.

[harleyj]

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

Also the word used was 'tarmacking' which is actually a verb. It is generic and can apply to other similar surfaces. 

 

'Blessèd are the cheesemakers' does not only apply to people who make cheese. 

Unfinished? 

 

Does it need a little white line down the middle with gaps? 

 

What about double yellows and duck lanes.

Or maybe they need some signage 

 

That should sort it. 

 

 

Surely you jest, suggesting that cyclists can read is just a step too far. Also maybe 15 mph is still too fast. They won't take any notice as I said they can't read.

[magnetman]

My point was that display of signs gradually moves the use of the surface towards wheeled vehicles and the mentality of users changes due to the presence of signage. 

 

Once these surfaced towpaths get onto mapping apps as fast cycleways it isn't impossible there may be a large increase in the number of people using them as commuter routes.  People with one objective which is to minimise journey times. 

 

 

[IanD]

49 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Despite overwelming evidence to the contrary, you still cling to the view that government somehow imposed charitable status on an unwilling British Waterways.

 

It takes two to tango. BW (Hales and Evans), had been pushing for this since 2003.

How you get that from what I wrote beats me, I never mentioned it or even thought it... 😞

 

What I said ties up with what Richard Parry said, which is that the government is placing requirements on CART -- KPIs -- which are prioritising non-boating users of the canals over boaters. Which is what lots of people are saying and blaming CART for, when they don't really have any say in the matter... 😞

30 minutes ago, magnetman said:

My point was that display of signs gradually moves the use of the surface towards wheeled vehicles and the mentality of users changes due to the presence of signage. 

 

Once these surfaced towpaths get onto mapping apps as fast cycleways it isn't impossible there may be a large increase in the number of people using them as commuter routes.  People with one objective which is to minimise journey times. 

 

 

So like I asked but you ignored, what's your suggested solution/surface/signage to stop high-speed traffic but allow slower-speed use (including walkers etc) all year round?

 

I don't think there is one, but maybe you know better... 🙂

Edited June 26, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

I didn't notice the question.

 

I don't think there is a lot wrong with a natural path. If people can't handle it in winter then maybe they shouldn't be out there in the first place. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lots of the Thames path, which is a national trail of some sort, has just normal surfaces. Yes it gets muddy so wear boots. No-one died. 

[matty40s]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

 

Lots of the Thames path, which is a national trail of some sort, has just normal surfaces. Yes it gets muddy so wear boots. No-one died. 

Well, if they did, they didn't bang on about it afterwards on soshal meeja.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I didn't notice the question.

 

I don't think there is a lot wrong with a natural path. If people can't handle it in winter then maybe they shouldn't be out there in the first place. 

 

Lots of the Thames path, which is a national trail of some sort, has just normal surfaces. Yes it gets muddy so wear boots. No-one died. 

 

That's all fine, but it goes directly against government pressure on CART to make the canals easily accessible to more people -- meaning, non-boaters.

 

If you disagree with that, maybe you need to vote for a different government, not blame CART? 😉

[magnetman]

13 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

That's all fine, but it goes directly against government pressure on CART to make the canals easily accessible to more people -- meaning, non-boaters.

 

If you disagree with that, maybe you need to vote for a different government, not blame CART? 😉

I'm not 'blaming' anyone. I think it is an interesting topic thats all. 

 

 

Also I didn't vote for the current government. 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

How you get that from what I wrote beats me, I never mentioned it or even thought it... 😞

 

What I said ties up with what Richard Parry said, which is that the government is placing requirements on CART -- KPIs -- which are prioritising non-boating users of the canals over boaters. Which is what lots of people are saying and blaming CART for, when they don't really have any say in the matter... 😞

 

Absolute nonsense.  Publication Data KPI's were not imposed by government but agreed by CRT's transition trustees as part of the grant agreement.

 

Edited to add a link to the agreement - 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/canal-river-trust-grant-agreement-with-defra

Edited June 26, 2023 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Ronaldo47]

I get the impression that, where the government is concerned, agreements tend to be arrived at with a metaphorical shotgun at the other party's back. Like the supposedly-independant pay review bodies for public service workers such as teachers and the police, where the government specifies maximum.levels of award. 

[Barneyp]

6 hours ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Absolute nonsense.  Publication Data KPI's were not imposed by government but agreed by CRT's transition trustees as part of the grant agreement.

 

Edited to add a link to the agreement - 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/canal-river-trust-grant-agreement-with-defra

That doesn't change the overall point that in order to secure funding from the government CRT need to demonstrate that a significant number of people are benefitting from (i.e. using) the canals and towpaths.

There are not enough boaters to justify the amount CRT need from the government.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

7 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I get the impression that, where the government is concerned, agreements tend to be arrived at with a metaphorical shotgun at the other party's back. Like the supposedly-independant pay review bodies for public service workers such as teachers and the police, where the government specifies maximum.levels of award. 

A generalisation that does not hold for the grant agreement. It is a matter of record that British Waterways were very willing participants.

[Higgs]

There's a stretch of towpath from Swarkestone, down to bridge 11, on the Trent and Mersey. For some reason, they covered the tarmac with some fine gravel. Presumably to make it look less urban. But at bridge 11, it does connect with a cycle route. 

 

 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

2 hours ago, Barneyp said:

That doesn't change the overall point that in order to secure funding from the government CRT need to demonstrate that a significant number of people are benefitting from (i.e. using) the canals and towpaths.

There are not enough boaters to justify the amount CRT need from the government.

Government has accepted the wider benefits of waterways for decades. It's long term objective is to deliver those benefits without cost to the taxpayer.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

22 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Government has accepted the wider benefits of waterways for decades. It's long term objective is to deliver those benefits without cost to the taxpayer.

Which is a definite improvement on 60 years ago, when the general consensus was to fill in the fetid stagnant ditches and build over them. If the current government can look at an organisation that takes a grant and has lots of valuable land in city areas and think it is worth keeping as is, rather than closing and selling off to their chums, then they must be convinced of its benefits.

[John Brightley]

1 hour ago, Higgs said:

There's a stretch of towpath from Swarkestone, down to bridge 11, on the Trent and Mersey. For some reason, they covered the tarmac with some fine gravel. Presumably to make it look less urban. But at bridge 11, it does connect with a cycle route. 

That will probably be what is called 'resin-bonded gravel'. You are correct in saying that it's used (in heavily used areas usually) to give a softer and more rural-looking surface which still has most of the durability of tarmac. It's expensive though.

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

A generalisation that does not hold for the grant agreement. It is a matter of record that British Waterways were very willing participants.

They might have been then, but I doubt the same is true now that the funding chickens have come home to roost... 😞

 

It's quite clear from both CART and government statements that the interests of millions of non-boaters are now being placed above those of ~100x fewer boaters, because the canals are being seen as a safe low-pollution linear park for recreation.

 

Arguing about who agreed to this when and why is irrelevant, what matters is where we are today -- which for boaters, is not in a good place... 😞

Edited June 27, 2023 by IanD