Do I have to replace all 3 of my leisure batteries

[Wiggywormcake]

This year my leisure batteries don’t seem to be keeping up. They are charged from a pair of solar panels and from running. They act as a series of 3 and don’t appear to be holding their charge. If I test them independently and only one is dragging the others down do I have to change all 3?

[GUMPY]

Remove the duff one and carry on without it.

 

 

[Wiggywormcake]

Thanks….now the boat won’t start so something is draining both the leisure batteries and the starter battery…I haven’t had anything running overnight so I’m stumped. The starter battery was new tail end of last year 🤷‍♀️

[David Mack]

How is your starter battery charged?

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Wiggywormcake said:

Thanks….now the boat won’t start so something is draining both the leisure batteries and the starter battery…I haven’t had anything running overnight so I’m stumped. The starter battery was new tail end of last year 🤷‍♀️

 

50 minutes ago, Wiggywormcake said:

This year my leisure batteries don’t seem to be keeping up. They are charged from a pair of solar panels and from running. They act as a series of 3 and don’t appear to be holding their charge. If I test them independently and only one is dragging the others down do I have to change all 3?

 

1. Yes, you can change just one battery from the three BUT as one has already failed (probably a shorting cell due to "old age") another may fail very soon. If it does, then that one will drain the bank and help destroy the others, including the new one. So you would need to keep a close eye on the remaining batteries.

 

2. Typically, most solar setups on canal boats only charge the domestic bank, there are exceptions on large and expensive setups. So if you have been relying on solar over the last month or so with no/little engine running, then the start battery may well just be flat.  As David asks, how is the engine battery charged? How many alternators on the engine? if one, then how is the charger split between banks? Do you use shoreline charging?

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Wiggywormcake said:

Thanks….now the boat won’t start so something is draining both the leisure batteries and the starter battery…I haven’t had anything running overnight so I’m stumped. The starter battery was new tail end of last year 🤷‍♀️

 

Then there is something wrong with the way the batteries are wired.

There should be no link between the starter and domestics such that anything can drain both.

 

The only possible way would be if the VSR had gone 'open circuit' and had dircetly connected both batteries together, or suddenly bith domestic and starter batteries were flattened by undercharging.

[rusty69]

1 hour ago, Wiggywormcake said:

Thanks….now the boat won’t start so something is draining both the leisure batteries and the starter battery…I haven’t had anything running overnight so I’m stumped. The starter battery was new tail end of last year 🤷‍♀️

Before you go much further, if you have access to a voltmeter, measure the voltage at the terminals of the starter battery and the domestic batteries independently to verify this is a battery problem.

Edited June 8, 2023 by rusty69

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Also, is your battery master switch of the four way variety, like this? If so, are you leaving the starter battery disconnected when the engine isn't running? Another possibility; is the bilge pump connected to the starter batt? If the engine hasn't been run for a while and solar is being relied on for charging the house batts, then the pump, or any other item connected to the starter batt will be discharging it, if it is running regularly.

[Wiggywormcake]

Thanks all…I’m well out of my depth with this one…I have strictly basic knowledge…the house batteries do have a line to the starter battery….we’ve never had a problem before so my other half who is more practical than I ….turned the house batteries off and then tried the engine…there was no power to the engine at all…when he turned the house battery back on the engine light came on and the thing started 1st time! We’ve had the boat 7yrs and never had this kind of problem…so…is it fair to say..that a) the starter battery needs to be configured so that it is separate from the house battery b) If left as it is we obviously have had something recent that has loosened or become faulty 🤷‍♀️ 

Thank you everyone we deffo have food for thought!

This boating lark is enough to make you bite your own bum…at times 🤣🤣🤣

 

Ps we did measure with the voltmeter house batteries 11.4 each and starter 12.5 this morning when problem started for 2nd time in 3 days after overnight.

 

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, Wiggywormcake said:

Thanks all…I’m well out of my depth with this one…I have strictly basic knowledge…the house batteries do have a line to the starter battery….we’ve never had a problem before so my other half who is more practical than I ….turned the house batteries off and then tried the engine…there was no power to the engine at all…when he turned the house battery back on the engine light came on and the thing started 1st time! We’ve had the boat 7yrs and never had this kind of problem…so…is it fair to say..that a) the starter battery needs to be configured so that it is separate from the house battery b) If left as it is we obviously have had something recent that has loosened or become faulty 🤷‍♀️ 

Thank you everyone we deffo have food for thought!

This boating lark is enough to make you bite your own bum…at times 🤣🤣🤣

 

Ps we did measure with the voltmeter house batteries 11.4 each and starter 12.5 this morning when problem started for 2nd time in 3 days after overnight.

 

 

There will be a NEGATIVE line between the start and domestic batteries, that is normal. There should be no POSITIVE connection between the two apart from some form of charge splitter if you have one (you won't if you have two alternators.

 

If you have 12.5V on the start battery, then it should at least try to start. I would expect it to spin freely. The fact, it does not suggest something other than the battery being faulty. I need the battery voltage from lead post to lead post (not clamp to clamp) while you are trying to start it, to be surer.

 

If you have a master switch for the start battery with a red plastic key then they are known to be unreliable, so that would be my first suspect. Just put all the connections onto one stud. If it starts, then the switch is faulty. Alternatively, screw up a ball of paper and put it down the hole under the plastic key. If it starts then the switch is faulty so don't think you have a long term cure.

[Richard10002]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Then there is something wrong with the way the batteries are wired.

There should be no link between the starter and domestics such that anything can drain both.

I think you are wrong to suggest that there should be NO LINK between starter and domestics, in the way that you do.

 

I think I know what you mean, but it is confusing for those with little knowledge.

 

For clarity, there is a link between the negatives of the starter and the domestics on mine. There is no link between the positives. My guess is that most will be wired similarly.

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I think you are wrong to suggest that there should be NO LINK between starter and domestics, in the way that you do.

 

I think I know what you mean, but it is confusing for those with little knowledge.

 

For clarity, there is a link between the negatives of the starter and the domestics on mine. There is no link between the positives. My guess is that most will be wired similarly.

 

For once, I think Alan has also got the VSR thing wrong as written. If it had gone open circuit, the two banks would not connect, so one could not discharge the other. You would also not get 11.x V on one bank and 12.5V on the other.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Then there is something wrong with the way the batteries are wired.

There should be no link between the starter and domestics such that anything can drain both.

 

The only possible way would be if the VSR had gone 'open circuit' and had dircetly connected both batteries together, or suddenly bith domestic and starter batteries were flattened by undercharging.

or a 1,2 both and operator error 

[Tony Brooks]

32 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

or a 1,2 both and operator error 

 

That is why I asked how many alternators and how the charge is split if only one. Until the questions posed are answered, any reply is likely to just be a random guess.

[Wiggywormcake]

Thanks Tony 😀 We only have the one alternator.
What you say is really helpful as last year we had a problem where the engine wouldn’t stop..we called someone out and they twiddled but didn’t replace anything…at the same time as it wouldn’t stop, the rev counter died and the key turning made no difference nothing would light up there was no connection…I think maybe it could be all part of one and the same thing? 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Wiggywormcake said:

Thanks Tony 😀 We only have the one alternator.
What you say is really helpful as last year we had a problem where the engine wouldn’t stop..we called someone out and they twiddled but didn’t replace anything…at the same time as it wouldn’t stop, the rev counter died and the key turning made no difference nothing would light up there was no connection…I think maybe it could be all part of one and the same thing? 

 

So do I, it could well be the master switch, but it also could be a problem in the multi-plug that most boats have in the main wiring harness between the engine and the battery/control panel. These are another known problem spot.

 

Which you check/test first should be based on ease of access. As the multi-plug, if you have one, is often low down next to the engine, it might be easier to put all the engine master switch cables on one stud first. Otherwise, get hold of the multi-plug, peel back the "rubber" boot, manipulate the two halves and pull apart and refit and test. If it then works, clean the pins and holes the pins go into and see if it is possible to very, very slightly squeeze the holes up a little. Some pack the holes with Vaseline to try to keep any water out.

 

I don't think in this case, so far, you have a charge splitting problem, but it would be good to know what system you have for future reference. Photos will get it identified.

 

[Wiggywormcake]

Thanks Tony..I’m actually beginning to recognise what I’m looking for..I think..below is the picture of the battery bank..3 together house batteries, single in front engine battery. Can’t see the master Switch..but is that the red rubber thing that I pressed to stop the engine when the key and rev counter display stopped? If it is that is right under the engine and you can barely reach it. 

39 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

it might be easier to put all the engine master switch cables on one stud first

I’m being totally thick I’m not quite sure what you mean.😬

 

We will test the charge in the batteries tonight..it’s been lovely and sunny and we’ve run the engine..and will see where we are up to in the morning. 

 

Hopefully we at least have a small clue as to what we should be looking at..if it happens again.

 

Thanks to everyone!
 

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Wiggywormcake said:

Thanks Tony..I’m actually beginning to recognise what I’m looking for..I think..below is the picture of the battery bank..3 together house batteries, single in front engine battery. Can’t see the master Switch..but is that the red rubber thing that I pressed to stop the engine when the key and rev counter display stopped? If it is that is right under the engine and you can barely reach it. 

I’m being totally thick I’m not quite sure what you mean.😬

 

We will test the charge in the batteries tonight..it’s been lovely and sunny and we’ve run the engine..and will see where we are up to in the morning. 

 

Hopefully we at least have a small clue as to what we should be looking at..if it happens again.

 

Thanks to everyone!
 

You should see the voltage rise when you run the engine

[David Mack]

This is the 'red key' type master switch Tony refers to. But I can't quite work out how it is wired. 

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, Wiggywormcake said:

Thanks Tony..I’m actually beginning to recognise what I’m looking for..I think..below is the picture of the battery bank..3 together house batteries, single in front engine battery. Can’t see the master Switch..but is that the red rubber thing that I pressed to stop the engine when the key and rev counter display stopped? If it is that is right under the engine and you can barely reach it. 

I’m being totally thick I’m not quite sure what you mean.😬

 

We will test the charge in the batteries tonight..it’s been lovely and sunny and we’ve run the engine..and will see where we are up to in the morning. 

 

Hopefully we at least have a small clue as to what we should be looking at..if it happens again.

 

Thanks to everyone!
 

 

 

No, it is not the rubber thing you press to stop the engine. That sounds like the cover on a stop solenoid that is normally connected to a push switch on the control and instrument panel. If I am correct, pushing it will just stop the engine by mechanical means, no electricity is required.

 

Somewhere along the battery leads you will find one or two fairly large switches in most cases. One in the thick positive lead from the engine battery and one in the thick positive lead from the domestic bank. Note I said n most cases. Older boats may have just one switch in the negative lead that serves both batteries. There are a number of different designs, but this is a fairly common one:

 

You can see one like this in the bottom photo and there is another with a bent metal silver key.

 

The wiring looks a mess to me and I can't work out what cable goes where. it almost looks as if the engine and domestic battery positives are joined on the master switch with the silver key, but I can't see it properly. You also seem you have an unexpected pair of red cables connecting to the engine battery terminals. I have no idea where they go. Remember, I can only see what is clear on the photo.

 

I have had problems with the type of switch with the metal key as well as the one with the red key.
 

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

This is the 'red key' type master switch Tony refers to. But I can't quite work out how it is wired.

 

Me neither, but I think the engine one is the one with the bent steel handle below (in the photo) the red one.

[David Mack]

11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The wiring looks a mess to me and I can't work out what cable goes where.

Exactly! And it doesn't help having both red and black cables connected to the battery positive and negative terminals.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

They’re proper Big Boy’s batteries. 
Worth saving if possible??

 

[Wiggywormcake]

Lol Goliath..thank you 🤣🤣🤣🤣

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

Exactly! And it doesn't help having both red and black cables connected to the battery positive and negative terminals.

Uh oh…if you and Tony think it’s a mess I don’t stand a chance..having said that things have settled down this afternoon but I think they’ll maybe bite us on the bum in the morning! From what you and Tony have both said maybe we need to get somebody in if it all goes pear shaped again🤷‍♀️

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

You can see one like this in the bottom photo and there is another with a bent metal silver key.

I recognise the red one but I haven’t seen the silver one….We put the floor back down for overnight..will see if it rights itself tomorrow. I think probably we are going to need professional help…on several fronts 🤣🤣

[Tony Brooks]

The silver one is about 3" to the side of the on with the red key, so looking at the battery box side it is on the left.

 

If it doesn't start tomorrow, before you call someone, please screw up too small balls of paper, remove both keys, pop the paper down the hole revealed, refit the keys and try to start. Less than 5 minutes work and it might save you a lot of money.

 

The problem is that we can't see the connections on those switches and are going by cable position"down the hole". That can be very confusing. If you want to persevere and probably learn more, see if you can get a good photo straight down on the back of the switches. Use flash if needed to illuminate the bottom of the "hole" so the wiring and terminals are clear to see.

[Wiggywormcake]

Thank you for your patience…will do…to be continued……