Boat shell advice

[alan_fincher]

5 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Im no expert but I wonder how well a square sterned narrowboat handles compared to a more traditional rounded one. 

 

Probably not a significant problem once underway, away from the bank, although it is possible that it might lead to more of a breaking wave forming from the squared corners.

 

To me the issue is more when moving away from the side, or leaving lock aprons.  A rounded stern will not steer into the bank as you attempt to get going.  A square one probably will, at least to some degree.

[LadyG]

7 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

Probably not a significant problem once underway, away from the bank, although it is possible that it might lead to more of a breaking wave forming from the squared corners.

 

To me the issue is more when moving away from the side, or leaving lock aprons.  A rounded stern will not steer into the bank as you attempt to get going.  A square one probably will, at least to some degree.

To me it's aesthetic, plug ugly, but that's just my opinion. More room for deck chairs.

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

Further to my last post re electrics.

 

Another thing that catches land based trades people out is that spirit levels are no use on a boat because they move as you do if afloat. If on land and trued up they may work, but I would prefer a roofing square and work off the floor. Fitting out with the boat on land may well end up with doors and draws jambing when afloat as the hull twists to take up its preferred shape.

[Captain Pegg]

6 hours ago, Mark R said:

Maybe there are advancements in design in this time?

 

Unfortunately not. I share @Tony Brooks view that any notion that modern shells aren't as good as old shells has no basis from a technological point of view but it is clear that the art of canal boat building - as opposed to the ability to fabricate steelwork - has been eroded or perhaps diluted by newcomers to the world of canals.

 

My one piece of advice would be to never buy a hull that has a prow rather than a rounded stem post. This is a point of safety and not of aesthetics. As I posted in the parallel thread on hull recognition traditional narrowboat shapes were never done for purely aesthetic reasons. In this case it is about not getting the bow of the boat caught on any part of the canal infrastructure, mostly top gates or cills when ascending locks. It can have disasterous consequences for the boat or the gate. I'd like to think that if I reeled off the names of a handful of the boatbuilders that have continued boat building traditions through the leisure era they have never - and would never - build a boat with such a feature. 

 

Nor am I a fan of square sterns as they make the boat more difficult to manoeuvre. Tehcnically when leaving the bank the taught procedure is to reverse or spring away rather than try and drive off the side (but 99% of folk do the latter anyway) but when leaving confined chanels such as narrow locks the ability to swing the back end as early as possible is advantageous. A square stern needs more room for manoevreing than a rounded stern overall and is more likely to get you pinned to the bank.

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[magnetman]

This is a result of a steel boat fabricator who allows a degree of customer input.

 

It isn't complex and a lot of steel boat fabricators do not allow this to happen.

 

I remember the boat builders hand book from yars ago. There was a useful list of the prices of new shells by several fabricators.

 

Out of interest Dave Clarke was quite a long way down the list. This doesn't mean the boats are bad but they were generally on the low cost side.

 

 

I don't know if anyone has the book these days. I think it was either narrow boat builders book or Rome wasn't built in a day which was about a Les Allen shell being fitted out.

 

Someone usefully collected all the prices for something like a 50ft bare shell and put them in a list.

 

 

[Bod]

My 2 penny's worth.

When actually viewing a hull in person, look at the way the "D" shaped rubbing strips are fitted.

They should be continously welded for the full length, including the ends, both top and bottom.

This is to keep out the water, thus preventing a rust trap to form, which will damage the hull and cannot without huge effort be fixed.

This almost alone will the difference between a good and not so good build quality.

 

Bod

 

[magnetman]

Continuous welded strakes were optional with an extra cost on some shells so someone not understanding the importance might not have realised it was money worth spending.

 

Similar thing is full length underwater rubbing strakes. These are something a good boat should have but few do.

 

 

Stitch welded strakes on older boats are a real can of worms. I've seen them rust out behind causing the strake to eventually pop off. All for the sake of a few (quite a few) feet of weld. The pitting behind them is amazing as it is a moisture trap.

 

Definitely a very good place to be looking to get an idea of build quality. Apart from anything else you can see the welds.

[rusty69]

23 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Continuous welded strakes were optional with an extra cost on some shells so someone not understanding the importance might not have realised it was money worth spending.

 

Similar thing is full length underwater rubbing strakes. These are something a good boat should have but few do.

 

 

Stitch welded strakes on older boats are a real can of worms. I've seen them rust out behind causing the strake to eventually pop off. All for the sake of a few (quite a few) feet of weld. The pitting behind them is amazing as it is a moisture trap.

 

Definitely a very good place to be looking to get an idea of build quality. Apart from anything else you can see the welds.

I agree. Them Allen boys knew how to build a boat. But then, I am a bit biased. 

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Mark R said:

I’m a plumber/heating engineer by trade

 

Never mind, we all have our crosses to bear...

 

Your self-description pretty much describes me too, except I trod the 'new shell and self-build' path back in the mid 1980s. Having top-to-bottom renovated many, many Victorian terraced houses (which you probably have too, so you have a handle on the work involved) I'd suggest a new shell fit-out is about the same work as perhaps three whole house renovations, but much more enjoyable obviously. 

 

Don't overlook the significant amount of work involved in painting the outside of your new shell! (Something rarely raised in discussions about self-fit-outs.) 

 

Also there is a massive amount of work in fitting windows, making the doors, ballasting, insulating, laying the floor and lining the shell if you really do buy a bare shell. And fitting/installing the engine. If you buy a 'sail-away' rather than a bare shell, all this is done for you and you're at least half way to a finished boat. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

This is a result of a steel boat fabricator who allows a degree of customer input.

 

It isn't complex and a lot of steel boat fabricators do not allow this to happen.

 

I remember the boat builders hand book from yars ago. There was a useful list of the prices of new shells by several fabricators.

 

Out of interest Dave Clarke was quite a long way down the list. This doesn't mean the boats are bad but they were generally on the low cost side.

 

 

I don't know if anyone has the book these days. I think it was either narrow boat builders book or Rome wasn't built in a day which was about a Les Allen shell being fitted out.

 

Someone usefully collected all the prices for something like a 50ft bare shell and put them in a list.

 

 

It was the original Narrow Boat Builders book 3rd edition about the building of "Rome" by Graham Booth.

[rusty69]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

I don't know if anyone has the book these days. I think it was either narrow boat builders book or Rome wasn't built in a day which was about a Les Allen shell being fitted out.

Yes, I have a copy on the bookshelf. Wanna buy it?

 

I also have the 'The New Inland boat owner's book' by Andy Burnett.

 

His book interestingly names his preferred builders as:

 

Five town boat building

Doug Moore

Les Allen and sons

Colecraft

Warble Narrowboats

Ballilol Fowden and associates

Sagar Marine

Stowe Hill Marine

Peter Nicholls

Stoke on Trent boat builders

David Piper

Stephen Goldsborough

 

He mentions the general elite builders as:

Doug Moore

Stowe Hill Marine

Steve Hudson.

 

However, the book is over 20 years old.

Edited April 28, 2023 by rusty69

[magnetman]

Yes if it is 2p.

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Yes if it is 2p.

 

I'll bid 3p 

Why the 'shocked' emogies?

 

It's amazing how much a rare book can be worth these days.

 

 

 

[rusty69]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I'll bid 3p 

Why the 'shocked' emogies?

 

It's amazing how much a rare book can be worth these days.

 

 

 

I paid at least £7.50 for it in the 90's. Thats like 1000 pound in todays money

Edited April 28, 2023 by rusty69

[MtB]

I bought a copy of that in the shop at Braunston Marina about 20 years ago. 

 

Couldn't find it in the car when we got home. I think we left it on the counter in there, grrrr...

 

 

 

[magnetman]

How much for a scan of the list of shell fabricators? 

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I paid at least £7.50 for it in the 90's. Thats like 1000 pound in todays money

Actually, I have the copy after he ditched Mr Burnett 

[magnetman]

Who was at the top? 

 

Steve priest, simon wain or similar. 

 

At the bottom end there was maybe Evans / Heywood? 

 

This was a number of yars ago and things change. 

[rusty69]

Just now, magnetman said:

How much for a scan of the list of shell fabricators? 

I have 2 copies of each. Yours for £1800 for all 4.

[Captain Pegg]

19 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Yes, I have a copy on the bookshelf. Wanna buy it?

 

I also have the 'The New Inland boat owner's book' by Andy Burnett.

 

His book interestingly names his preferred builders as:

 

Five town boat building

Doug Moore

Les Allen and sons

Colecraft

Warble Narrowboats

Ballilol Fowden and associates

Sagar Marine

Stowe Hill Marine

Peter Nicholls

Stoke on Trent boat builders

David Piper

Stephen Goldsborough

 

He mentions the general elite builders as:

Doug Moore

Stowe Hill Marine

Steve Hudson.

 

However, the book is over 20 years old.

 

Does he give reasons for those choices?

 

Did they all fabricate their own hulls or did some of them only fit out shells bought from others?

 

It's always a bit of issue as to what exactly constitutes a boatbuilder.

 

 

[magnetman]

Is a Gold Britannia alright for this? 

 

 

 

 

I like the Sagar boats. They seemed to know what to do with wide and narrow. 

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Does he give reasons for those choices?

 

Did they all fabricate their own hulls or did some of them only fit out shells bought from others?

 

It's always a bit of issue as to what exactly constitutes a boatbuilder.

 

 

Personal opinion. 

[magnetman]

I almost bought a Five Towns (Roger Fuller) boat called Leopard about 25 yars ago. It was built as an open hold workboat but I think has since had a cabin. Nice item. 

Just now, rusty69 said:

Personal opinion. 

Or Marketing. 

 

Still the list does include some alright ones. 

 

 

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Who was at the top? 

 

Steve priest, simon wain or similar. 

 

At the bottom end there was maybe Evans / Heywood? 

 

This was a number of yars ago and things change. 

These images will self delete at noon today. 

[magnetman]

One of the books had a list with prices for a 50ft shell.