Boat shell advice

[Mark R]

Hi guys,

 

I wonder if you experienced folk might offer your opinions on a narrow boat I’m interested in. I’m new to narrow boats and was looking for a restoration project as a hobby. Having searched for a project boat I’ve really not found anything that stood out to me, those that were of interest appeared that they might just be too far gone.

 

For this reason I decided to look at the possibility of a new build. I saw an advert on Marketplace for a 52ft shell produced by Dave Clarke boatbuilders in Nottinghamshire.

Having enquired about the boat I have learned the following information:

 

Steel is 10 mm floor, 6mm hull,4 mm cabin and roof 

Test certificates for the steel supplied.

Front and rear steel doors 

Diesel tank 

Keel cooler 

Engine beds

Anodes 

Finished in primer and blacked 

Engine can be installed at an extra cost 

 

Here is the link to the boat, https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1092693024753465/

 

I’m under no illusions about the cost of fitting out the shell, however I don’t believe that I know enough about quality of build to make the decision by myself. I’ve spent time looking into Dave Clarke boatbuilders but don’t really find much information (good or bad) on them. It appears Dave has been building boats for many years, first for Hancock & Lane, then in a partnership with Roy Denton, before going it alone.

 

During my time looking for a boat I have come across many thread on here and spoke to people who have a variety of differing opinions. Some say modern shells aren’t of great quality, others say be wary of new shells that are available to purchase without a waiting period.

 

It was my intention to go and have a look at the boat and get a feel for Dave and his son Craig (who seems very happy to provide information). Prior to this I was hoping you might be able to share your opinions and experiences when it comes to purchasing a shell.

 

Mark

[MtB]

I suspect it hasn't sold because of the horrible bow design.

 

Done that way to make it much cheaper to build than a 'normal' bow shape. Far less work. 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

Personally, I would be more concerned about having the money required to complete the job to the half decent standard and getting fed up long before the job is done, then there are the complications of the Recreational Craft Regulations (UK RCD). Trying to fit out afloat while keeping CaRT happy ads even more difficulties like getting a host of 8' x 4' sheets delivers and aboard, space for cutting etc. This is not a problem if you have the boat ashore with dry secure storage for materials.

 

It is often said that this sort of project takes about five times more money and time than originally estimated.

 

Anyone who says modern shells are no good are not well-informed. Some hull builders produce top quality shells, whiles others cut costs to provide a cheaper product. Comparing the price you quote with Collingwood's price list shows yours is several thousand pounds cheaper. I have heard of Dave Clarke and not heard anything bad.

 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

I have heard of Dave Clarke and not heard anything bad.

 

Same here, which is why I'm surprised he's built a hull with that odd bow shape (so hostile to the canal infrastructure).

 

A cancelled order, perhaps. 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Dave is a much better boat builder than a drummer.

 

He has been building a long while, look at some of his older, and more shapely, boats that are being sold.

I don't do social media so cannot see the picture but the bow from all accounts is ugly.

If you are going to be spending around £80k on a shell and fitting out, to me it makes more sense to spend £70k on a second hand boat and go boating straight away rather than spend 2 years building.

[Higgs]

From the photos, it looks like a fairly clean and competent build. The bow is not the best looking style, for sure, but for a craft that doesn't need to go very fast, it's adequate. It probably would meet the cill of a lock, for longer, before the fenders touch the lock gate, before the water has risen enough.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Higgs

[Stroudwater1]

Two years is possibly an underestimate. Met a professional boat fitter (not narrowboat tbf) who took three years 6 months. He had bought the shell aged 60 at retirement. By the time he was now 70 and with aged limbs he had effectively lost 33% of his available boating. 
 

Sadly his children weren’t interested in helping out so it was heading for brokerage where it seems owner fit outs sell for  a little less money.
 

It all sounds great but the realities are often not so.
 

Sorry to sound a bit down on the idea. 
 

[MtB]

17 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I don't do social media so cannot see the picture but the bow from all accounts is ugly.

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

Its ugly.

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Its ugly.

 

Yes. Well executed, but horrible! 

 

I can only guess he built it that way for a specific client who wanted it like that, who then went bust/cancelled/died or was otherwise unable to complete the purchase, leaving Dave holding the baby so to speak. 

 

Edit to add:

I think my point is if the OP is going to the mahoosive effort and expense of fitting out his first shell, he might as well fit out a nice, elegant shell as the effort and expense will be the same but the end result so much nicer to own and more valuable. 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by MtB

[Tigerr]

You need to consider the real-world logistics of doing your own fit out. It's a huge job. Ideally you'd want to have the boat on land to do it, with a suitable area for materials storage, workshop, power etc. And lots of time - it might be 5 years before the job's finished. 

Doing it on the water, you'd want similar space. 

Doing it on the cut is not ideal - lots of logistical issues that make it difficult - which is why one sees so many half-completed or eventually bodged self-fitouts.

It's possible but quite a challenge. 

It's going to cost a lot more than your estimated budget, and doing it to a level of quality that doesn't look like an obvious DIY project is going to cost a lot more than that. A handyman-level domestic DIY level of woodwork and fittings will age very badly on a boat - you need to use marine quality materials. Working in solid hardwood though is expensive and requires high levels of woodworking skill. 

But if it's the doing of it that is your aim, not the finished boat as a goal - go for it. 

If on the other hand you want a boat - go and buy a boat, get out on the cut now not in 5 years. 

[ditchcrawler]

I fitted my boat, never again. That was with the hull on hard standing 200 yards from my home. I don't know your boating experience, but do you know what you are trying to achieve 

[Mark R]

Morning all,

 

Thanks for all your replies, I’m blown away by the response. As it happens the photo of the boat aren’t the one that would be produced. The stern and bow can be built to my specification. I was curious about the makers and build quality. I've attached some other pictures of boats they have built.  From what I can gather the overall view appears to be favourable?

 

I’m really looking for something to get my teeth into, the idea of having a finished boat doesn’t appeal to me, I want something to get my hands dirty on. I’m a plumber/heating engineer by trade and am pretty multi-skilled, while I’m no joinery expert I would certainly be way beyond DIY level, I’m also lucky to know people in other trades (although no marine specific tradespeople). Tools and storage space aren’t an issue.

 

Both time and cost aren’t so important, again it’s a hobby (albeit probably an expensive one), I’m sure I’ll lean plenty along the way!

 

My initial idea of purchasing a secondhand boat seemed the way to go at the time, however as I research more and watch videos of YouTube of people doing the same I see the additional work required in stripping the boat back to a blank canvas.

 

Once again I really appreciate all your feedback and advice, I’ll try and reply to some of the messages individually that discuss specific points.

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Mark R said:

I’m also lucky to know people in other trades (although no marine specific tradespeople)

 

Unless they know the relevant BS/ISO regulations for boat electrics, you would be well advised not to let a house/industrial electrician or even an autoelectrician with no boat experience anywhere near the boat. If you do it is likely to fail the RCR (if you build to that) and the BSS inspection. This is related to choice of cable types, conductor size, and the long, low voltage cable runs involved.

[LadyG]

17 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I fitted my boat, never again. That was with the hull on hard standing 200 yards from my home. I don't know your boating experience, but do you know what you are trying to achieve 

He needs to know the floor is not 10 mm, likely that's the baseplate....

The capacity of water tank, and diesel tank are relevant, more so, than the steel certificate at this stage .

PS It looks awful, but that's just my opinion.

PPS if you don't know how to fit out a boat before you start, well you are in for a shock!

Edited April 28, 2023 by LadyG

[magnetman]

I've seen a few Dave Clarke boats. My mum had one of his normal narrows for about 12 yars. I've also helmed his unusual dutch barge style narrow and the custom wide bean at Henley.

 

He is one of those shell fabricators that allows a certain amount of input from the customer around the design of the boat. A lot of fabricators do not allow this because it can sometimes result in a bad boat and their reputation could suffer as a result. You have to be careful because most people are not boat designers. Having said that it can result in interesting boats which is never a bad thing.

 

Personally having handled my mother's boat (55ft standard narrow boat) quite a lot I was not a fan but this is a personal thing to do with liking boats which handle well. The steel work was good and they are okay. We did a lot of cruising over a decade and the boat was alright. I had a Wednesbury built 55 footer (Tony Gregory GM Engineering) which was a different thing altogether and (for me) handled a lot better.

 

The one in the picture looks like trouble with lock gates.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by magnetman

[Mark R]

23 hours ago, Tigerr said:

You need to consider the real-world logistics of doing your own fit out. It's a huge job. Ideally you'd want to have the boat on land to do it, with a suitable area for materials storage, workshop, power etc. And lots of time - it might be 5 years before the job's finished. 

Doing it on the water, you'd want similar space. 

Doing it on the cut is not ideal - lots of logistical issues that make it difficult - which is why one sees so many half-completed or eventually bodged self-fitouts.

It's possible but quite a challenge. 

It's going to cost a lot more than your estimated budget, and doing it to a level of quality that doesn't look like an obvious DIY project is going to cost a lot more than that. A handyman-level domestic DIY level of woodwork and fittings will age very badly on a boat - you need to use marine quality materials. Working in solid hardwood though is expensive and requires high levels of woodworking skill. 

But if it's the doing of it that is your aim, not the finished boat as a goal - go for it. 

If on the other hand you want a boat - go and buy a boat, get out on the cut now not in 5 years. 

 

17 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I fitted my boat, never again. That was with the hull on hard standing 200 yards from my home. I don't know your boating experience, but do you know what you are trying to achieve 

 

It sounds like you both have the experience of fitting a narrow boat out. I would be doing the work on a hard standing.

 

Tigerr, you raise some interesting points, it would likely be that some of the work would be contracted out to specialists where I do not hold the skills to achieve the finish required. You are spot on with your comment about doing it being the aim. The idea of having a finished boat and just getting out there doesn't appeal to me.

 

Ditchcrawler, how long did it take you to complete your fit out? Did you keep records on the hours spent on it?

[magnetman]

RSJ as a stem might be good for ramming.

[Mark R]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I've seen a few Dave Clarke boats. My mum had one of his normal narrows for about 12 yars. I've also helmed his unusual dutch barge style narrow and the custom wide bean at Henley.

 

He is one of those shell fabricators that allows a certain amount of input from the customer around the design of the boat. A lot of fabricators do not allow this because it can sometimes result in a bad boat and their reputation could suffer as a result. You have to be careful because most people are not boat designers. Having said that it can result in interesting boats which is never a bad thing.

 

Personally having handled my mother's boat (55ft standard narrow boat) quite a lot I was not a fan but this is a personal thing to do with liking boats which handle well. The steel work was good and they are okay. We did a lot of cruising over a decade and the boat was alright. I had a Wednesbury built 55 footer (Tony Gregory GM Engineering) which was a different thing altogether and (for me) handled a lot better.

 

The one in the picture looks like trouble with lock gates.

 

Thanks magnetman, Craig at Dave Clarke has asked for a little input, more to do with preference as opposed to design. Totally agree with your comments about the bow. Was there anything specifically about the handling of the boat that you feel was down to the build or was it more the design?

 

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

Rudder and stern swim design were not very good . The boat needed power for manoovering rather than being able to glide around out of gear. 

 

At the time my boat was more old fashioned with a heavy balanced rudder so it would steer without the prop turning. My mum's Clarke boat which was the same length had a completely different feel. Take the power off and it didn't handle well at all. You couldn't glide in to a mooring without using the engine. 

 

It was lighter to steer but remarkably different to my boat for close quarters slow movement. 

[Mark R]

I really appreciate your input, do you know what year your mum's narrow boat was built?

 

[magnetman]

1995. 

[Mark R]

Maybe there are advancements in design in this time?

[alan_fincher]

Dave Clareke has produced many a perfectly reasonable boat, so gawd knows why he has now progressed into some of the aberrations shown in this thread!

 

Beware not just that horrible bow, but also things like that squared off transom stern or that bow cabin that has displaced the T stud so far forward it is in a daft place on top of the stem.

 

The aptly named "Glad All Over" used to be a Dave Clark boat local to us - much better looking than most of what you have posted.

[Stroudwater1]

16 minutes ago, Mark R said:

Maybe there are advancements in design in this time?

 

I suspect not. Designing a boat that handles well makes for quite a bit more work on the hull and thus cost. 

 

Many competitors are  banging out many boxy boats at (relatively) low cost and swim design/ handling well will generally be very low down on priorities for a person buying a new boat
 

Im no expert but I wonder how well a square sterned narrowboat handles compared to a more traditional rounded one.