Not looking good for us

[Orwellian]

2 minutes ago, MartynG said:

C&RT are guardians.

I don't think they own the canals or property.

It does appear property under C&RT guardianship can be sold but what happens to the money raised from the sale I wouldn't know.

 

 

They do own their property. Just check with the Land Registry.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

37 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

By reserves do you mean the Protected Assets? If so I don't think the word 'reserves' correctly defines what they really are.

I mean both protectected an unprotectected assets. Are you suggesting that some of these can not

 be sold?

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Orwellian]

No I'm not but the Protected Assets are there to provide an income that helps to pay for the upkeep of the waterways. If large parts of these capital assets were sold to pay for revenue spend it will diminish future long term income. 

[peterboat]

Just now, Orwellian said:

No I'm not but the Protected Assets are there to provide an income that helps to pay for the upkeep of the waterways. If large parts of these capital assets were sold to pay for revenue spend it will diminish future long term income. 

True, but it would make the waterways minister very aware of the financial trouble they are in?

[Orwellian]

I'm pretty sure CRT has made this very clear to DEFRA as part of the grant review discussions.

 

The report if the Protector is worth reading and can be found here https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/search?q=Report+of+the+Protector

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

Presumably the cost to hire boat companies will also be going up. The canals need people to take holidays on boats and also companies building, selling and hiring along the routes otherwise the system will become moribund. From time to time we look at the possibility of hiring a boat, out of season, even then it has become, frankly, shockingly expensive and if you get a week of solid rain it is just not worth the money. Owning or hiring a boat has become far too expensive. It is irrelevant whether it is 'fair' and we should pay more or 'unfair' and people complain and think about selling up and leaving. The fact is that CRT are being forced to kill the goose that lays the golden egg. The canal system needs government funding and the chances of getting more are just about nil. The government holds the key to the future of the waterways and it is not looking good.

If hiring a boat is so unaffordably expensive, why do all the decent hire boats get booked up long in advance?

 

If owning a boat is so unaffordably expensive, why do all the decent boats for sale get snapped up almost immediately?

 

Hiring or buying boats isn't cheap, but it seems that demand -- for good ones -- exceeds supply, which isn't usually a sign that they're unaffordable as far as the market for either is concerned.

 

Just like houses, either to buy or rent... 😉

[Arthur Marshall]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

If hiring a boat is so unaffordably expensive, why do all the decent hire boats get booked up long in advance?

 

If owning a boat is so unaffordably expensive, why do all the decent boats for sale get snapped up almost immediately?

 

Hiring or buying boats isn't cheap, but it seems that demand -- for good ones -- exceeds supply, which isn't usually a sign that they're unaffordable as far as the market for either is concerned.

 

Just like houses, either to buy or rent... 😉

A few hire companies have gone out of business over the past few years, which would imply that supply exceeded demand. I suspect a few more are teetering on the brink and another year of closures and emergency stoppages will finish off some more. Demand doesn't hold up well when you can't guarantee that a holiday will start and finish as planned. A lot of disgruntled people last year won't be back.

Much the same for the boat market - once people realise they're going to either be stuck in the marina all summer  or have to leave their expensive toy at risk of vandalism on the towpath for months, it's going to plummet.

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A few hire companies have gone out of business over the past few years, which would imply that supply exceeded demand. I suspect a few more are teetering on the brink and another year of closures and emergency stoppages will finish off some more. Demand doesn't hold up well when you can't guarantee that a holiday will start and finish as planned. A lot of disgruntled people last year won't be back.

Much the same for the boat market - once people realise they're going to either be stuck in the marina all summer  or have to leave their expensive toy at risk of vandalism on the towpath for months, it's going to plummet.

Arthur I seem to be agreeing with everything you post very strange 

[Momac]

Holidaying at home remains popular.

Holidaying abroad is not cheap, flights are not cheap.

So I see plenty of scope for hire boats.

But agree its no good if the hire boats are impeded by stoppages.

 

[Momac]

9 hours ago, Orwellian said:

They do own their property. Just check with the Land Registry.

Okay

 

I dare say some of that property is for their own use so incurs cost and cannot  generate income. 

It doesn't seem like C&RT make best use of  any other property to generate income but the problem is probably down to lack of funds sufficient to do more than maintenance.

 

[Higgs]

13 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Mine costs me over a thousand quid a year. If that's your definition of free, I'd be interested in what you think is expensive.

The legal requirement for a home mooring went out, as you say. The requirement for somewhere to moor your boat, however, didn't, unless you're the Flying Dutchman.

 

If you have a paid mooring, that is your choice. It is a choice not forced to be required. And for CCers, it is not fair to suggest they get their moorings for free, and that it's worthy of criticism for being free.

 

Anyone with a licence is entitled to use the waterway. It could not be used practically, if mooring was not included as an essential part of the use of the canal.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Higgs

[Allan(nb Albert)]

9 hours ago, Orwellian said:

No I'm not but the Protected Assets are there to provide an income that helps to pay for the upkeep of the waterways. If large parts of these capital assets were sold to pay for revenue spend it will diminish future long term income. 

As I am sure you are aware, CRT's grant agreement with Defra allows the sale of capital assets to further its charitable objectives.

Indeed, up until about six months ago they intended to do just that following the failure to get £160m extra funding from the  Treasury.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Allan(nb Albert)

[George and Dragon]

35 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Holidaying at home remains popular.

Holidaying abroad is not cheap, flights are not cheap.

So I see plenty of scope for hire boats.

But agree its no good if the hire boats are impeded by stoppages.

 

Holidaying in the UK is generally at least as expensive as a similar holiday elsewhere with the added bonus of a British summer .

Depends where you want to go, of course. If you're heading outside Europe then costs can be eyewatering but they don't have to be.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

9 hours ago, Orwellian said:

I'm pretty sure CRT has made this very clear to DEFRA as part of the grant review discussions.

 

The report if the Protector is worth reading and can be found here https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/search?q=Report+of+the+Protector

The latest yearly report of the protector (for 2021-22) has yet to be published.  

 

[Momac]

17 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

Holidaying in the UK is generally at least as expensive as a similar holiday elsewhere

That has been so for some decades but holidaying abroad has increased in cost.

Flights and accommodation abroad are not the bargain they used to be .

 

[peterboat]

43 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

Holidaying in the UK is generally at least as expensive as a similar holiday elsewhere with the added bonus of a British summer .

Depends where you want to go, of course. If you're heading outside Europe then costs can be eyewatering but they don't have to be.

To be honest holidays in Europe are the most expensive, other countries outside Europe are way cheaper with better weather 

[Bee]

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

To be honest holidays in Europe are the most expensive, other countries outside Europe are way cheaper with better weather 

There is certainly some truth in this, the £ and Euro exchange rate has something to do with it and the cost of living in Europe, including the UK has risen too but there seems to be something unique about Britain that means we always get much more stick than carrot. I fear it comes down to rigid political ideology again.

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Higgs said:

 

If you have a paid mooring, that is your choice. It is a choice not forced to be required. And for CCers, it is not fair to suggest they get their moorings for free, and that it's worthy of criticism for being free.

 

Anyone with a licence is entitled to use the waterway. It could not be used practically, if mooring was not included as an essential part of the use of the canal.

 

Of course CCers get their moorings for free. Everybody has to moor. Why is it suddenly "not fair" to state something which is true? Remove the shoulder chip. Stating a fact is not criticism. Adding a value to it (which I didn't) is opinion, which is different, though admittedly the difference gets a bit blurred on social media.

CRT sell moorings, and mooring permits as well as licences. One option would be to update their "roving mooring permit" concept to cover the whole network apart from time limited or restricted places. Everyone would have to have either a home mooring permit or a roving one. We already know they can charge for any bit of the towpath they want (that they own). In effect, it's just widening the catchment.

And, as you say, it's impractical to run a boat without mooring it, so it includes everyone. Whether there are enough continuous cruisers to make it worthwhile, I dunno. Once, there wouldn't have been. Now,  with the sheer number of fifteen-times-a-year-moving boats masquerading as on a cruise, maybe.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Arthur Marshall

[Higgs]

40 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Of course CCers get their moorings for free. Everybody has to moor. Why is it suddenly "not fair" to state something which is true

 

It sounded like a criticism. If I was wrong, i apologise. 

 

 

[Mad Harold]

On 08/02/2023 at 09:28, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You misread the sentence :

 

CRT has begun another boat licence consultation, warning that boat licence fees – currently 11% of income – may need to rise by far more than the rate of inflation. 

 

C&RTs total income is £214.6 million

Income from boat LICENCES is £24 million (Source : C&RT published accounts 2021-22)

I don't know how much CRT spend on maintaining the navigation only, apart from bridges and other stuff, but the navigation only.

The canals local to me are the ones with the most stoppages, The Huddersfield Narrow and Broad,The Calder and Hebble, The Rochdale, The Peak Forest, and The Macclesfield.

These are surely among the most picturesque canals in the country and I guess the most expensive to maintain.

Being a rather frugal Yorkshireman, I would still be prepared to pay a substantial increase in the licence fee if it was "Ringfenced" for maintainance of the navigation.

Don't know if this would be practical,but if an increase in licence fee just goes 'into the pot' then things will not improve.

[Higgs]

54 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

And, as you say, it's impractical to run a boat without mooring it, so it includes everyone. Whether there are enough continuous cruisers to make it worthwhile, I dunno. Once, there wouldn't have been. Now,  with the sheer number of fifteen-times-a-year-moving boats masquerading as on a cruise, maybe.

 

I think it's quite enough to maintain the costs within the licence fee. They already charge, in places they have no authority. 

 

 

[IanD]

11 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A few hire companies have gone out of business over the past few years, which would imply that supply exceeded demand. I suspect a few more are teetering on the brink and another year of closures and emergency stoppages will finish off some more. Demand doesn't hold up well when you can't guarantee that a holiday will start and finish as planned. A lot of disgruntled people last year won't be back.

Much the same for the boat market - once people realise they're going to either be stuck in the marina all summer  or have to leave their expensive toy at risk of vandalism on the towpath for months, it's going to plummet.

 

There have always been hire boat companies going out of business as long as I've been hiring boats, often the ones with lower boat and maintenance standards, but sometimes triggered by stoppages -- like Rosewood who I posted about being killed off by the L&L stoppages in 2010. I've certainly seen far more stoppages in recent years and have had to change plans sometimes, but nevertheless every time I've hired a boat (including last year) it's been difficult to find good-quality ones except by early booking -- yes there are often plenty of boats with late availability, but they're often the less desirable ones, which suggests that the "good" hire companies are still doing fine.

 

I'm sure that some disgruntled people won't be back after bad experiences, but against this holidays abroad are now more expensive and more hassle than they used to be thanks to a certain event -- and the weather here in summer is hotter thanks to another one -- so more people are looking for UK holidays.

 

Having said all that, the high Northern canals (L&L, Rochdale, HNC, Macclesfield, Peak Forest...) have been suffering from a *lot* of stoppages, usually as a result of poor maintenance, and many also have relatively low usage levels and lots of expensive locks, so are prime targets for closures if this comes to pass. Which would be a great shame and I really hope doesn't happen, but I fear might happen sooner or later unless CART get more money from somewhere... 😞

Edited February 13, 2023 by IanD

[Mike Todd]

19 hours ago, IanD said:

So you didn't read what I wrote, then?

 

Which in case you can't find it was 50% increase on average, with zero at the bottom end of the scale for those who can't afford it, and 100% or more at the top end for those who can almost certainly afford it -- and payable by area, so wideboats pay more than today.

 

Having a price or fee per square foot (or square metre) of space is very common all over the world for buying/renting houses/boats and also taxes/fees on land/houses/boats, because the benefit to the owner is space so it's seen as fair that it should be used to work out prices and fees.

 

It's not perfect but -- with allowances for less well-off people like pensioners -- it's probably the best that can be done.

And you just *have* to keep it going, don't you? How about taking your veiled insult hat off and putting your useful contribution hat back on again? Then we can go back to the subject under discussion instead of throwing excrement... 😉

But ability to pay is also correlated to purchase price - which will depend significantly on age and also other factors. eg does it have an engine? a BSSC? etc

[Mike Todd]

12 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A few hire companies have gone out of business over the past few years, which would imply that supply exceeded demand. I suspect a few more are teetering on the brink and another year of closures and emergency stoppages will finish off some more. Demand doesn't hold up well when you can't guarantee that a holiday will start and finish as planned. A lot of disgruntled people last year won't be back.

Much the same for the boat market - once people realise they're going to either be stuck in the marina all summer  or have to leave their expensive toy at risk of vandalism on the towpath for months, it's going to plummet.

Business can go bust for all sorts of reasons, not just a lack of demand.

 

Some just run out of motivation.

 

some fail to provide adequately for depreciation, thinking that they can get a higher immediate rate of return until all their boats fall apart

 

Some fail because their boats are out of fashion

 

etc

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

Business can go bust for all sorts of reasons, not just a lack of demand.

 

Some fail because extended closure(s) in their local area completely stuffs their businesses up.