Starter battery question

[nicknorman]

What is the oil being squirted into the little hole about? Does that lead to the air intake to raise the compression ratio? Or what?

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

What is the oil being squirted into the little hole about? Does that lead to the air intake to raise the compression ratio? Or what?

Valve rocker gear. It has to be manually oiled occasionally, like every time its started

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

What is the oil being squirted into the little hole about? Does that lead to the air intake to raise the compression ratio? Or what?

 

From reading some of the linked manuals I got the impression that the oil went into the cylinder to help "seal"  the rings. It said you could also put it into the "cigarette" hole.

[MtB]

31 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Valve rocker gear. It has to be manually oiled occasionally, like every time its started

 

Hmmm. 

 

i wonder if the OP has run the engine for dozens of hours on end  with no lube and the rocker bearings have worn excessively, and opened up too big a valve clearance. 

[john.k]

Might also have an excess fuel position ...some motors wont start without the excess fuel whatsit being set.....................most euro motors have all sorts of clever  gizmo s like valve lifters that ratchet down to full compression as the motor is turned 

[Tracy D'arth]

13 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Hmmm. 

 

i wonder if the OP has run the engine for dozens of hours on end  with no lube and the rocker bearings have worn excessively, and opened up too big a valve clearance. 

Usually lack of lube here wears the pushrod ends away on  "G" Sabb.

 

They are pretty bomb prove being designed for lifeboats, left unused for years and to run upside down for a while.

[john.k]

Takes a very long time to wear  as there is  oil misting from crankcase  lubricating the rockers ..

[magnetman]

The starters are called "Zundfix" and come in a tin. I had a 2G which had heater plugs but the singles don't so it might want the starter. It's a small explosive which discharges into the combustion chamber. 

 

One assumes there is adequate clean fuel to the engine. Day tank or main tank? 

 

 

Is it a Barney boat?

Edited December 31, 2022 by magnetman

[PaulJ]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

What is the oil being squirted into the little hole about? Does that lead to the air intake to raise the compression ratio? Or what?

You are correct-Its just to raise the compression ratio temporarily.My Sabb 2j is fitted with two and no other method of cold starting. Never needed to try it though to be fair.

[ditchcrawler]

18 hours ago, Rob-M said:

Instructions here, https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/change-your-default-search-engine-in-microsoft-edge-cccaf51c-a4df-a43e-8036-d4d2c527a791#:~:text=Select Settings and more > Settings,in the address bar menu.

Make it easy to find, don't they? Thanks for that, we will soon see if I have done it right

[lxs602]

  

It didn't turn over with the old starter battery, and I left it in place. The engine then jump started from the new one (55Ah 520CCA)!

 

Voltage (V) readings:
 .......................................Before................During (1).........During (2)................Afternoon next day (engine off all day)

New starter battery.......12.66..................12.66................12.51........................12.66

Old starter battery.........12.3....................12.10................12.51........................12.3

Leisure batteries.......................................12.3..................12.51........................12.3

 

 

Someone helpfully pointed out that the ignition light was still lit while the engine was running. If the alternator was working, it would go out and the batteries would then be charging. After a couple of hours the ignition light then went out and stayed out for a while, and I presume the batteries were then charging.

 

In the early evening, I took the revolutions too low and the engine stopped. The engine didn't jump start this time. I took a second set of readings, and all the batteries were at 12.51V, as above, including the new starter battery, which had been totally disconnected from everything else after the jump start. Thankfully I then succeeded in getting it going by hand, and I think that the engine was warm helped.

I didn't use the engine the next day, and by early afternoon, the new starter battery had risen to 12.66V, and the old one and the leisure batteries fallen back to 12.3V. I hadn't used any lights or appliances at all.

 

I don't know why the engine wouldn't start with the batteries at 12.51V in the evening that day. I also don't know why the readings changed back again on the next day. It also seems something must be wrong with the alternator?

 

I have attached a few pictures but I forgot to take a video. On the old leisure battery, someone has used a black wire on the positive terminal and a red wire on the negative.

 

 

On 31/12/2022 at 10:06, Tony Brooks said:

 

I suppose it is even possible that he is trying to start it with the decompressor set to decompress.

 

 

Correct. The hand crank hadn't been turning as the decompressor was not in the right position.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by lxs602

[Tony Brooks]

Well, as you do not seem to have given the voltage with the engine revving rather higher than tick over or any idea of the actual revs I can't comment about the alternator, but if the light did not go out it probably was not charging. This tends to be confirmed by there being no rise to well in excess of 13 volts once running.

 

We have yet to see a photo of the starter motors and alternator, some Saabs used a dynostart so until we identify what you have anything I say is very tentative.

 

I agree, the engine should start at 12.5V or more so see comments below.

 

1. If that red key master switch is for the whole boat or the engine battery put all the cables on it onto just one stud and then try to start. If it starts throw the idiot switch away and get a quality one. Those are well known for causing such problems. Put the cables back as they should be. Disconnect the negative on the battery before doing any of this.

 

2. There seems to be a fuse in one of the start battery cables, inside a plastic box, if this is undersized or has a poor connection it might cause problems for the instruments, but more importantly, the starter solenoid. This supposes it is just for the engine electrics.

 

3. The starter motor (if that is what it has) usually has two pairs of two brush sets. If the brushes are badly worn one set may not make contact and that gives symptoms similar to a well discharged battery.

 

I have no idea why the alternator suddenly put its warning lamp out unless there is a bad connection somewhere, including internally.

 

If this turns out to be a Dynostart then its control box has contacts that might cause such problems but don't go messing until we know what you have.

 

 

Drawing current off a battery will lower the voltage for a while, that is lower than what the rested voltage would be, then while doing nothing the voltage gradually recovers. This is normal.

 

You say you have looked at my website. Have you methodically done the voltage checks shown in the electrical notes, starter circuit testing? If so please list the results. I am particularly interested in the battery pos to starter main terminal while cranking, and the same for battery neg to starter case, because they should identify any excess volt drop.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[MtB]

50 minutes ago, lxs602 said:

In the early evening, I took the revolutions too low and the engine stopped. The engine didn't jump start this time.

 

It still isn't clear to me whether the engine fails to start because the starter won't spin it over in a lively manner, or because when being spun over in a lively manner, it fails to fire.

 

You may not have "took the revolutions too low", the underlying intermittent fault preventing the enging starting may have simply returned and stopped it.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, MtB said:

 

It still isn't clear to me whether the engine fails to start because the starter won't spin it over in a lively manner, or because when being spun over in a lively manner, it fails to fire.

 

You may not have "took the revolutions too low", the underlying intermittent fault preventing the enging starting may have simply returned and stopped it.

 

or it is such a dire state it can no longer power itself at idle so just stops. There is so much we and I suspect the OP do not know.

[David Mack]

That spaghetti wiring all over the place with chocblock and spade connectors hanging in midair doesn't give a lot of confidence that the electrics are reliable!

[Tony Brooks]

Just noticed that what looks like the dip stick does not appear to be fully pushed home, I wonder if excess back pressure in the crankcase pops it up. If so a suggestion that the engine may not be in the best of condition.

[magnetman]

If the holder for the starter "cigarette" were to become loose for some reason the engine would lose compression and either not run or run badly. It would be blowing exhaust past the fitting. If it is only very slightly loose it might not be obvious. 

 

May be worth checking ? It seems to be the hexagonal nut just above the alternator in this picture. 

 

 

 

I haven't played with one of these but it seems that this obviously removable fitting must communicate directly with the combustion chamber. So there must be a risk of it coming loose. 

Edited January 2, 2023 by magnetman

[MtB]

21 minutes ago, David Mack said:

That spaghetti wiring all over the place with chocblock and spade connectors hanging in midair doesn't give a lot of confidence that the electrics are reliable!

 

Yes it looks a right mess, but I've seen worse...

 

Only slightly worse tho!

[magnetman]

This video shows the cigarette holder being removed and refitted. 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by magnetman

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

If the holder for the starter "cigarette" were to become loose for some reason the engine would lose compression and either not run or run badly. It would be blowing exhaust past the fitting. If it is only very slightly loose it might not be obvious. 

 

May be worth checking ? It seems to be the hexagonal nut just above the alternator in this picture. 

 

 

 

Anything is worth checking but as it seems that at times it will not spin over (I think that is what the OP suggests) and the charge light seems to spend a long time illuminated with the engine running it seems to indicate more than one problem.

[lxs602]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Well, as you do not seem to have given the voltage with the engine revving rather higher than tick over or any idea of the actual revs I can't comment about the alternator, but if the light did not go out it probably was not charging. This tends to be confirmed by there being no rise to well in excess of 13 volts once running.

 

We have yet to see a photo of the starter motors and alternator, some Saabs used a dynostart so until we identify what you have anything I say is very tentative.

 

I will go back on Saturday and get details and pictures.

 

Another picture is below. The starter motor is just visible behind the arm of the hand crank, to the right of a paint pot with black paint drips, and with a blue wire. The seller told me the starter motor had just been replaced.

 

It is a fuse in a box on the cable from the starter battery. I accidentally blew the fuse when I took out the old starter battery and dropped the cable, before putting the battery back in again. It now has a short piece of 30A fuse wire between the two points. This was before jump starting from the new battery.

 

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

You say you have looked at my website. Have you methodically done the voltage checks shown in the electrical notes, starter circuit testing? If so please list the results. I am particularly interested in the battery pos to starter main terminal while cranking, and the same for battery neg to starter case, because they should identify any excess volt drop.

 

 

I will do some reading and try testing on the return visit. I hope to be in Birmingham by the end of that day.

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, lxs602 said:

 

I will go back on Saturday and get details and pictures.

 

Another picture is below. The starter motor is just visible behind the arm of the hand crank, to the right of a paint pot with black paint drips, and with a blue wire. The seller told me the starter motor had just been replaced.

 

It is a fuse in a box on the cable from the starter battery. I accidentally blew the fuse when I took out the old starter battery and dropped the cable, before putting the battery back in again. It now has a short piece of 30A fuse wire between the two points. This was before jump starting from the new battery.

 

 

I will do some reading and try testing on the return visit. I hope to be in Birmingham by the end of that day.

 

 

I think that I can just about discern the solenoid of an ordinary diesel type starter so that is one thing now confirmed.

 

To be sure. You blew that fuse by dropping the cable before it was reconnected, and the engine was stationary? If one battery cable is disconnected the circuit should be dead, let alone two cables and the battery not in pace.  If I have this right then there is no way you should be able to blow that fuse on a twin battery bank boat UNLESS the charge splitting is by a big red switch marked off, 1, 2, both with it is set to both. In all other cases I think it indicates that the domestic and engine batteries are in some way linked, which was mentioned as a possibility early in the topic.

 

The 30 amp fuse wire should suffice for now.

 

Now the way the fuse blew has been revealed it seems to indicate some serious fault-finding and remedial work might be required. I am not sure if we can help much now unless a knowledgeable member local to you is willing to have a poke about and report back.

 

[lxs602]

On 31/12/2022 at 11:34, magnetman said:

The starters are called "Zundfix" and come in a tin. I had a 2G which had heater plugs but the singles don't so it might want the starter. It's a small explosive which discharges into the combustion chamber. 

 

One assumes there is adequate clean fuel to the engine. Day tank or main tank? 

 

 

Is it a Barney boat?

 

I will look at starters. I am out of funds until late January, hopefully no additional purchase might not be necessary, or else, it has been suggested an actual cigarette butt...

https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/zundfix-starting-cigarettes.157164/

 

It is a David Piper, so not a Barney boat. I don't believe there is a day tank.

[lxs602]

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

To be sure. You blew that fuse by dropping the cable before it was reconnected, and the engine was stationary? If one battery cable is disconnected the circuit should be dead, let alone two cables and the battery not in pace.

 

 

Correct, the engine was stationary, and leisure batteries were still connected. The negative cable from the starter was connected, and the positive cable was dropped.

 

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

1. If that red key master switch is for the whole boat or the engine battery put all the cables on it onto just one stud and then try to start. If it starts throw the idiot switch away and get a quality one. Those are well known for causing such problems. Put the cables back as they should be. Disconnect the negative on the battery before doing any of this.
 

 

The label over the red key read Engine battery key or similar, from memory. I will find out.

 

11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Now the way the fuse blew has been revealed it seems to indicate some serious fault-finding and remedial work might be required. I am not sure if we can help much now unless a knowledgeable member local to you is willing to have a poke about and report back.

 

 

If anyone knows an electrician in or around Birmingham familiar with boats, or who would like a day's pay themselves, I would be glad to hear.

Edited January 2, 2023 by lxs602

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, lxs602 said:

 

Correct, the engine was stationary, and leisure batteries were still connected. The negative cable from the starter was connected, and the positive cable was dropped.

 

Thanks, all bets are off now. It should have been impossible, that cable got fed electricity from somewhere, and the only place when out on the cut with a stationary engine, is the domestic bank.