Insurance question

[Phoenix_V]

6 minutes ago, Slim said:

 

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Phoenix_V

[Tracy D'arth]

2 hours ago, PeterCr said:

Thanks Helen, I'm beginning to get a little worried. I've rung IRCM and they tell me the rules have changed and they too now only insure British residents. He wasn't sure what had changed but the changes mean that they can only insure British residents

Sell me the boat for £10 and I'll insure it for you at full value.  Seriously, it may be the best way to get good insurance.

[Slim]

So, who changed the rules and why?  I know several UK citizen/residents who own property abroad, France, Eire and the US. I wonder what their situation is? 

[Arthur Marshall]

Just now, Slim said:

So, who changed the rules and why?  I know several UK citizen/residents who own property abroad, France, Eire and the US. I wonder what their situation is? 

Someone on the cruiser forum who asked his insurance company was told it's a result of Brexit. Presumably prior we came under European insurance rules and now the UK has imposed it's own, improved version. Much the same appears to apply to car insurance. 

Probably part of the Home Office culture of intolerance, I forget it's official name.

[Alan de Enfield]

50 minutes ago, Slim said:

So, who changed the rules and why?  I know several UK citizen/residents who own property abroad, France, Eire and the US. I wonder what their situation is? 

 

 

I posted last year about the whole shake up that Lloyds was demanding from their Syndicates that do marine insurance.

The Syndicates / Underwriters are now only allowed to trade after their business plans have been accepted and approved by Lloyds.

Wholesale changes were demanded as to what they could offer and many underwriters and brokes have had their licence to trade revoked.

 

Maybe the insurers feel that an unattended boat (by long term absentee owners) is at a higher risk than one that is regularly in use. ?

 

Here is part of a previous post I made :

 

 

I have mentioned this a time or two in the last couple of months, the marine insurance industry is going thru turmoil at present, with the instruction from Lloyds of London that the industry is unsustainable at present levels and folowing some huge claims Lloyds are changing the requirements from brokers offering marine insurance.

 

They have told each 'provider' that they must produce a business plan showing that their business is sustainable and profitable, the Business plan must be approved by Lloyds before they are allowed to trade.

 

Several providers have already had their licence to trade rescinded.

 

As one example It now seems that all business will be only accepted on a 'market value' instead of 'agreed value'.

I have had agreed value insurance for many years and this all came to light when I noticed that my renewal said 'market value' only, on the instruction of Lloyds.

 

I have previously posted extracts from the letters explaining all the wherefores.

 

"For the first time in over 200 years in the history of Lloyds, special measure have been imposed demanding that all Syndicates writing Yacht insurance submit a sustainable business plan, in the absence of which they would be precluded from writing this class of business. This is because the market has spiralled down to a fundamentally unsustainable level of rates resulting in consistent attritional underwriting losses compounded by catastrophic (storm) claims. ........................................

............................. we continue to write yacht business but we are now instructed to increase rates. All insurers are following suit except those who are now precluded from writing yacht insurance ...............................

 

[Arthur Marshall]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I posted last year about the whole shake up that Lloyds was demanding from their Syndicates that do marine insurance.

The Syndicates / Underwriters are now only allowed to trade after their business plans have been accepted and approved by Lloyds.

Wholesale changes were demanded as to what they could offer and many underwriters and brokes have had their licence to trade revoked.

 

Maybe the insurers feel that an unattended boat (by long term absentee owners) is at a higher risk than one that is regularly in use. ?

 

Here is part of a previous post I made :

 

 

I have mentioned this a time or two in the last couple of months, the marine insurance industry is going thru turmoil at present, with the instruction from Lloyds of London that the industry is unsustainable at present levels and folowing some huge claims Lloyds are changing the requirements from brokers offering marine insurance.

 

They have told each 'provider' that they must produce a business plan showing that their business is sustainable and profitable, the Business plan must be approved by Lloyds before they are allowed to trade.

 

Several providers have already had their licence to trade rescinded.

 

As one example It now seems that all business will be only accepted on a 'market value' instead of 'agreed value'.

I have had agreed value insurance for many years and this all came to light when I noticed that my renewal said 'market value' only, on the instruction of Lloyds.

 

I have previously posted extracts from the letters explaining all the wherefores.

 

"For the first time in over 200 years in the history of Lloyds, special measure have been imposed demanding that all Syndicates writing Yacht insurance submit a sustainable business plan, in the absence of which they would be precluded from writing this class of business. This is because the market has spiralled down to a fundamentally unsustainable level of rates resulting in consistent attritional underwriting losses compounded by catastrophic (storm) claims. ........................................

............................. we continue to write yacht business but we are now instructed to increase rates. All insurers are following suit except those who are now precluded from writing yacht insurance ...............................

 

You have to remember that insurance companies are not in business to pay out insurance claims, but to collect premiums. To succeed in business, they really need to insure only people who don't ever claim, which is why the small print is so important as it means that hardly anyone can, anyway.

In order to maximise their returns, therefore, they need a complicit system which will make it compulsory for people to insure stuff. Otherwise, only those who thought they might need it would buy the product, and there aint no profit in that.

Making it virtually impossible to buy ordinary insurance if you're not resident is a marvelous idea, as it means that those who do can sell exactly the same product as a "special" for ten times the price with no increase in risk.

Politicians need boards to sit on when they get kicked out of office.

[Slim]

I accept that a long term unattended boat presents a greater risk than one checked up on regularly. I would have thought this could be addressed by an increased premium to reflect the greater risk and / or a requirement for it to be kept in a staffed marina. But maybe that's too sensible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Slim]

44 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

You have to remember that insurance companies are not in business to pay out insurance claims, but to collect premiums. To succeed in business, they really need to insure only people who don't ever claim, which is why the small print is so important as it means that hardly anyone can, anyway.

In order to maximise their returns, therefore, they need a complicit system which will make it compulsory for people to insure stuff. Otherwise, only those who thought they might need it would buy the product, and there aint no profit in that.

Making it virtually impossible to buy ordinary insurance if you're not resident is a marvelous idea, as it means that those who do can sell exactly the same product as a "special" for ten times the price with no increase in risk.

Politicians need boards to sit on when they get kicked out of office.

Oh dear. There's me thinking that insurance companies were a service industry🤩

[harleyj]

We insure with insurance-4-boats and would thoroughly recommend them. Had a large claim with them in 2020(new motor) and were very impressed. 

We are also from the land of more sunlight like yourself, although if I remember correctly you are from bleak city, Melbourne. 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, harleyj said:

We insure with insurance-4-boats and would thoroughly recommend them. Had a large claim with them in 2020(new motor) and were very impressed. 

We are also from the land of more sunlight like yourself, although if I remember correctly you are from bleak city, Melbourne. 

 

Have you renewed your policy recently ?

[PeterCr]

I did get a quote from Haven Knox Johnson finally, and in the quote it states that I am from Australia. So despite it being 3 times the price of the Craftinsure quote at least I can insure now.

 

However if this is the situation now there are I suspect thousands of people like me from countries all over the world who own a boat in the UK and who now potentially have real difficulty getting insurance, and therefore potentially can't use their boat. I suspect that those with an existing policy can just keep paying and nothing will change though, I doubt they will start going through policies to see where people live.

 

Just rang compare-boat-insurance and they too will only insure residents. They are a broker.

[harleyj]

Due in August so watch this space!

[David Mack]

From their Ts and Cs at https://www.insure4boats.co.uk/terms-of-business

"Residency Limitation

You and anyone on whose behalf You purchase Our insurance must be a permanent resident of the United Kingdom, unless otherwise agreed.  This means You must be a resident in the United Kingdom for a minimum of 6 months in a 12-month period."

[David Mack]

 

With so many companies now limiting cover to UK residents this must be affecting more than just narrowboaters. Anyone know if the RYA has anything to say on the subject?

[PeterCr]

Same for Craftinsure. They don't say anything when you get a quote online but it's in the terms. And of course I'm sure that if you buy their insurance and make a claim they will look for evidence of residence and will decline to pay whether or not they advised you of this in the quote. I've found a few online that just give you an online quote not mentioning this.

[ditchcrawler]

12 minutes ago, PeterCr said:

I did get a quote from Haven Knox Johnson finally, and in the quote it states that I am from Australia. So despite it being 3 times the price of the Craftinsure quote at least I can insure now.

 

However if this is the situation now there are I suspect thousands of people like me from countries all over the world who own a boat in the UK and who now potentially have real difficulty getting insurance, and therefore potentially can't use their boat. I suspect that those with an existing policy can just keep paying and nothing will change though, I doubt they will start going through policies to see where people live.

 

Just rang compare-boat-insurance and they too will only insure residents. They are a broker.

Did you try Michael Stimpson (I have probably spelt that wrong)

[David Mack]

Peter,

Can you look at it from the other side and see if an Australian insurer will cover a boat in the UK?

[PeterCr]

 

17 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Did you try Michael Stimpson (I have probably spelt that wrong)

I rang Circle Marine and couldn't get anyone to answer the phone. Then noticed a phone number for their Nottingham branch who told me they don't do narrowboat insurance and referred me to a broker at Mercia Marina. My wife is British (and Australian) and they asked me if she has an address she can use in the UK. We do, where she grew up and her parents live, so he asked me to send in a form using those details for a quote. 

 

It's an interesting aside. We can use a name and address of a British citizen and I doubt they would even bother to try and find out if that British citizen is a resident or not. But I suspect that they might try and find out if there is a claim. And she doesn't live there when in the UK she lives on the boat.

 

Also interesting, who qualifies as a British resident? What is the definition of a British resident? I looked online and it said 183 days (6 months) in the UK in a year. We can easily spend 6 months on our boat, does that qualify us/her as a British resident? And as David Mack points out it says "you and anyone else". If we insure in her name does the anyone else mean we don't qualify as I am not a British resident?

 

Can of worms really.

[roland elsdon]

40 minutes ago, harleyj said:

We insure with insurance-4-boats and would thoroughly recommend them. Had a large claim with them in 2020(new motor) and were very impressed. 

We are also from the land of more sunlight like yourself, although if I remember correctly you are from bleak city, Melbourne. 

We had the double whammy of australian residence and historic boat (open hold) for a while.

we had no trouble getting insurance in 2012 but with stipulations rechecking and maintaining.

That has now changed and we have to be british residents, fortunately due to covid this occured by default, we were unable to go home.

In 2 years we will sell up and pick up our australian residence, ending our ownership of boats that started in 1980.

Without this particular carp we would have kept the boat, but that and the rest of the uk garbage have mean we are taking the only sensible choice.

[roland elsdon]

Peter dont start on 183, and residency.

You end up with huge tax issues, believe me i know. 
As a brit resident you have worldwide income liabilities, even if the recipriocal system applies.

After declaring all to the Ato and paying all taxes we still had to fill in uk forms.

Its a cesspit.

[PeterCr]

22 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

Peter dont start on 183, and residency.

You end up with huge tax issues, believe me i know. 
As a brit resident you have worldwide income liabilities, even if the recipriocal system applies.

After declaring all to the Ato and paying all taxes we still had to fill in uk forms.

Its a cesspit.

I don't think trying to become a resident is a possibility or option Roland. When you take out the insurance you must be a resident, in other words have already spent 6 months in the country just to become a resident. Then you can get your insurance and use your boat. So if you want to cruise for, say, 4 months you in effect need to spend 10 months in the UK - every year. And as I am not a British passport holder for me to do that (even if we wanted to) would require visitor visas. Each is only 6 months and so I would need ongoing visitor visas to do this.

 

And of course as my wife is a British passport holder I am entitled to apply for British citizenship, but even that doesn't qualify. Even though she is a British citizen she still isn't a British resident. She too must spend 6 months in the UK to qualify for insurance as a resident.

[Ronaldo47]

23 hours ago, David Mack said:

From their Ts and Cs at https://www.insure4boats.co.uk/terms-of-business

"Residency Limitation

You and anyone on whose behalf You purchase Our insurance must be a permanent resident of the United Kingdom, unless otherwise agreed.  This means You must be a resident in the United Kingdom for a minimum of 6 months in a 12-month period."

The bold italicised text seems to offer a let-out, otherwise why is it there? 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Ronaldo47

[PeterCr]

 

8 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

The bold italicised text seems to offer a let-out, otherwise why is it there? 

Brilliant point Ronaldo. I'm planning to start ringing around on Monday to see if I can convince an insurer to insure us, I'll ask that exact question. Thanks

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

The bold italicised text seems to offer a let-out, otherwise why is it there? 

 

27 minutes ago, PeterCr said:

 

Brilliant point Ronaldo. I'm planning to start ringing around on Monday to see if I can convince an insurer to insure us, I'll ask that exact question. Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

Just be aware that you can only insure something if you have an 'insurable interest' in it - this means that if there was a loss that it would financially impact you directly.

 

The official wording :

 

 

What Is Insurable Interest?

Insurable interest is a type of investment that protects anything subject to a financial loss. A person or entity has an insurable interest in an item, event, or action when the damage or loss of the object would cause a financial loss or other hardships.

 

To have an insurable interest a person or entity would take out an insurance policy protecting the person, item, or event in question. The insurance policy would mitigate the risk of loss if something happens to the asset—like becoming damaged or lost.

 

 

Do I Have an Insurable Interest?

Created by FindLaw's team of legal writers and editors | Last updated June 02, 2017

With so many types of insurance out there, you might wonder if there’s anything you can’t insure. For example, you can insure your pet, boat, crops, and life, so could you also take out an insurance policy on your best friend’s car? As it turns out, you can only insure those items for which you have an insurable interest. Read on to learn more about insurable interests and how they affect the types of insurance policies you can buy and enforce.

What Is an Insurable Interest?

So, you have to have an insurable interest in something in order to buy insurance for it. But what does that mean? You have an insurable interest in a person or thing if you would suffer a direct financial loss upon the destruction of the property or the death of the person. Put another way, you have an insurable interest if you benefit from the continued well-being and existence of the property or person.

Under this rule, you can’t take out an insurance policy on your neighbor’s car because you don’t stand to lose anything if the car is damaged or totaled. Similarly, you can’t buy a life insurance policy on your distant third cousin because his death wouldn’t directly affect your finances. On the other hand, you have an insurable interest in your spouse because their death would cause severe hardship on your family. Similarly, you have an insurable interest in your home because the destruction from something like a fire or earthquake would significantly decrease your home’s value.

 

 

 

Maybe you'd be able to do it if (say) 25% of the boat was sold to someone else..

 

I know someone who sold his car to someone for £1 trying to get around some aspect of ownership - however it was investigated and determined that as it was not sold at 'market value' it was fraud.

 

Be careful

Edited June 11, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Arthur Marshall]

It may be worth checking what the companies mean by resident, and getting that in writing. Residence for tax purposes is a specific ruling and there's no reason why insurers should use the same definition.