Today's new newbie - barge houseboat

[PabloC]

Hi all, here's today's new post of newbie questions - hope you can provide advice.

 

I'm looking at an opportunity to move onto the water on a unpowered barge conversion - it has a residential mooring at a marina, unable to be moved due to size. 

I'm seeing this as a stepping stone to a complete move to cc and self employment from the water in perhaps 2-3 years. With it being bank holiday I'm waiting to hear back from the broker with more info and the marina about costs.

 

I've spent the last couple of weeks scanning the forum, so have a fair idea of the general approach I need to take but does anyone have any thoughts on the following? - 

 

Safety certificate - I'll still need one but with the license - does it qualify for a 50% discount being over 50ft and unpowered? It's moored on the canal but as part of the marina, does this make any difference? 

I need to check the last time it was out the water, but I know its a steel structure, is there anything I should be looking for in regards to this? Does this type/size of house boat come out the water?

If I were to organise a survey - would you suggest I do (if I can) get it out the water?

 

In regards to costs, on the forum there seems to be many different opinions on what to expect to pay each year, and of course I need to get the mooring fee (which may kill this idea before I've even started) - I'm presuming electric and water are within the mooring fee. There are three large solar panels which I'm hoping will go along way if not - I'll be looking to downside the 240v fridge/freezer, remove/not use the washing machine, limit use of the large oven, no TV for me anyway. Theres an electric water heater.

It doesn't look like any need for gas, diesel, petrol - unless theres a generator? I guess I really should wait to get info from the broker before I ask these questions. 

My general lifestyle costs will remain the same, slightly less as I'll walk to work rather than drive. 

 

What most concerns me - I'm reading people talk about 10K in maintenance costs each year, the need to have a financial reserve of the same amount as the purchase price and to expect high cost problems. I'm hoping the lack of engine and some level of reassurance through an independent survey would reduce this significantly, but am I wrong? 

 

I'm really keen to get your thoughts, either encouraging or discouraging.

 

Any opinions on if this is a good transition from land to water?

Thanks in advance! Pablo

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by PabloC

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, PabloC said:

I'm presuming electric and water are within the mooring fee.

 

Ok, heres a starter ..........

 

Very very unlikely that your mooring fees will include electricity, gas or any toilet emptying cost. The mooring fee would normally cover water (a tap which you will need to connect a hose pipe to and fill your onboard tank - NOT a permanently connected water supply) and waste disposal (bins).

 

Unless you state which marina it is it is impossible to be 100% sure as each marina owner has different 'rules and charges'.

 

There are some boats that are registered as 'house boats' which are registered differently to 'liveaboard boats'. A house boat has to be permanently attached to the land and is NORMALLY directly connected to the electric and water utilities and usually will have the toilet connected to the mains sewage system.

 

Really without more informationwe can only give you examples of 'what normally happens'

[David Mack]

If its too big to be moved how do you get it out of the water for a hull survey? Does the marina have a suitable dry dock or crane on site?

[dmr]

I think I know which boat this is, don't do it, don't. If you want a boat to cc/go cruising/go boating then get that boat now, don't get a white elephant as some sort a stepping stone. If its trapped in the marina then you are at the whim and mercy of the marina owner, if you fall out then the boat will have almost zero value.

You mention self employment, are you sucessfully self employed now? or do you think (dream) that living on a boat will somehow make the very difficult transition to self employment easier? (it makes it much much harder for most, but  easier for a few).

 

Costs and BSS etc are mere details, get the concept sorted out first.

[LadyG]

@dmr is respected, walk away, quickly.

You will usually find water is free, as in included in marina cost, but electricity will always be on a meter, for obvious reasons.

Depending on your self employment, be aware that if you are cc, there may be practical difficulties not found in marina life.

Costs of your boat, yes you need a thick wad of cash left over, but not normally £10K.

General advice for a single person might be to go for good boat, fifty plus foot, maybe ten years old but not over twenty five. That's obviously a generalisation. 

Avoid cold damp boats, living aboard, you need foam insulation, good stove mid boat, plus webasto type heating. Unless you are highly skilled avoid a project, there is enough to do day to day maintenance,

Not sure how to advise, but have a look on broker websites and visit a few that look OK.

The cost of gas for cooking depends on how much you use, naturally, maybe two to four bottles per year, £45 each.

Coal is twenty five to thirty weeks per year, £25-35 per week, roughly, very roughly. Only the more extreme boater will harvest his own fuel.

Look on youtube for costings, £1k plus mooring costs, plus boat licence £1k, costs are unpredictable in one sense, ie maintenance is ongoing for most, some folks do emergency repairs only. You must buy something that you can sell,

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, PabloC said:

.....but with the license - does it qualify for a 50% discount being over 50ft and unpowered?

 

I think you missed the bit about it being a butty.

(A butty is an unpowered 'trailer' that is towed by a powered boat)

 

Unless you have a licence for a 'powered boat' you cannot get the 50% reduction on the butty.

 

 

From the licence T&Cs :

 

Unpowered Butty : 50% discount for a butty boat more than 50ft long that never travels separately from its motor boat. The motor boat must be licensed and licences for motor and butty must be concurrent with the same start and end date. To claim this discount, you must declare the name and index number of the motor boat.

[Tracy D'arth]

Electric heating is a no-no long term, will cost you plenty and impossible unless you are on a permanent shore line.

If its a residential mooring you will pay council tax, full wide beam canal licence, BSS fees, electricity, gas, insurance, marina fees, waste disposal, hull maintenance,  and any other fees that the marina feels like charging to  a captive "customer".

 

Not a sound idea. Do you seriously think you could sell the "boat"  on to another? I would doubt it.

 

No engine and a big hull, where are you going to get it to for blacking it and how? Where do you live whilst any work is being done on the boat?

[blackrose]

10 hours ago, PabloC said:

I'm looking at an opportunity to move onto the water on a unpowered barge conversion - it has a residential mooring at a marina, unable to be moved due to size. 

I'm seeing this as a stepping stone to a complete move to cc and self employment from the water in perhaps 2-3 years. 

 

I don't understand how moving onto an unpowered static barge could be viewed as any kind of stepping stone to CCing on a boat that moves?

 

The fact that the barge is on the water might make you think it's a stepping stone, but that's irrelevant.

 

If you buy the barge you'll spend the 2-3 years fixing things, getting everything to work and worrying about how to get it out the water for hull repairs. Meanwhile as others have said, because you can't move it you're at the mercy of the marina. They may increase mooring charges or even tell you they don't want it at their marina any longer. Then what would you do? You might find you're not be able to sell it.

 

It isn't a stepping stone, it's actually a retrograde step away from your goal of boat ownership.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by blackrose

[MtB]

9 hours ago, PabloC said:

I'm seeing this as a stepping stone to a complete move to cc and self employment from the water in perhaps 2-3 years.

 

 

I'm with DMR on this. I'm seeing buying this boat as a major step backwards, a distraction and an impediment to reaching your goal of CCing and being self-employed "from the water" in 2-3 years. But without knowing what you mean by "self employment from the water" it's hard to see how how this boat might help or hinder you in reaching your goal or to put forward any practical advice.

 

I've been self-employed (both on and off the water!) for over 40 years now so might be able to give you some suggestions if you can outline what self employment from the water means to you in a bit of detail. 

 

 

[mrsmelly]

Go and rent a flat in Chelsea, it will end up a cheaper option.

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, MtB said:

..........self employment from the water...........

 

 

[PabloC]

11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Very very unlikely that your mooring fees will include electricity, gas or any toilet emptying cost. The mooring fee would normally cover water (a tap which you will need to connect a hose pipe to and fill your onboard tank - NOT a permanently connected water supply) and waste disposal (bins).

 

There are some boats that are registered as 'house boats' which are registered differently to 'liveaboard boats'. A house boat has to be permanently attached to the land and is NORMALLY directly connected to the electric and water utilities and usually will have the toilet connected to the mains sewage system.

Thanks for this. I didn't realise the difference here - definitely not connected directly to the utilities. 

 

9 hours ago, dmr said:

I think I know which boat this is, don't do it, don't. If you want a boat to cc/go cruising/go boating then get that boat now, don't get a white elephant as some sort a stepping stone. If its trapped in the marina then you are at the whim and mercy of the marina owner, if you fall out then the boat will have almost zero value.

You mention self employment, are you sucessfully self employed now? or do you think (dream) that living on a boat will somehow make the very difficult transition to self employment easier? (it makes it much much harder for most, but  easier for a few).

 

Costs and BSS etc are mere details, get the concept sorted out first.

Thanks, this is the boat in question - https://www.aquavista.com/buy-or-sell-a-boat/boats-for-sale/bambi

I didn't think of it as being trapped in the marina but that does make sense. I guess I'm thinking of it as similar to a flat, which is effect is trapped in its location too. Already very helpful responses - especially about the white elephant/stepping stone idea. 

 

My self-employment is consultancy and journalism and all web based, bringing in a steady income, however I'm currently part time lecturing which locks me into West London and surrounding counties. 

 

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

Costs of your boat, yes you need a thick wad of cash left over, but not normally £10K.

General advice for a single person might be to go for good boat, fifty plus foot, maybe ten years old but not over twenty five. That's obviously a generalisation. 

Avoid cold damp boats, living aboard, you need foam insulation, good stove mid boat, plus webasto type heating. Unless you are highly skilled avoid a project, there is enough to do day to day maintenance

Not sure how to advise, but have a look on broker websites and visit a few that look OK.

The cost of gas for cooking depends on how much you use, naturally, maybe two to four bottles per year, £45 each.

Coal is twenty five to thirty weeks per year, £25-35 per week, roughly, very roughly. Only the more extreme boater will harvest his own fuel.

Look on youtube for costings, £1k plus mooring costs, plus boat licence £1k, costs are unpredictable in one sense, ie maintenance is ongoing for most, some folks do emergency repairs only. You must buy something that you can sell.

Thanks so much for the details - really gives me an idea of what to expect. 

 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Unless you have a licence for a 'powered boat' you cannot get the 50% reduction on the butty.

Thanks, didn't realise that.

 

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Electric heating is a no-no long term, will cost you plenty and impossible unless you are on a permanent shore line.

If its a residential mooring you will pay council tax, full wide beam canal licence, BSS fees, electricity, gas, insurance, marina fees, waste disposal, hull maintenance,  and any other fees that the marina feels like charging to  a captive "customer".

 

Not a sound idea. Do you seriously think you could sell the "boat"  on to another? I would doubt it.

 

No engine and a big hull, where are you going to get it to for blacking it and how? Where do you live whilst any work is being done on the boat?

Thanks, very useful. From everyone's responses, it's clearly not a good idea - but I'm glad to find out now.

 

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

The fact that the barge is on the water might make you think it's a stepping stone, but that's irrelevant.

 

It isn't a stepping stone, it's actually a retrograde step away from your goal of boat ownership.

This is exactly what I thought, water = lifestyle change. It's the daily routine I thought I'd need to ease into - emptying the toilet, managing the electrical usage, managing the heat - all the usual things us newbies ask lol.

 

1 hour ago, MtB said:

I'm with DMR on this. I'm seeing buying this boat as a major step backwards, a distraction and an impediment to reaching your goal of CCing and being self-employed "from the water" in 2-3 years. But without knowing what you mean by "self employment from the water" it's hard to see how how this boat might help or hinder you in reaching your goal or to put forward any practical advice.

 

I've been self-employed (both on and off the water!) for over 40 years now so might be able to give you some suggestions if you can outline what self employment from the water means to you in a bit of detail. 

Thanks - that definitely seems to be the consensus. By self employed I meant as a consultant, which is not location dependant. Any advice on self employment and CCing would be great. 

 

These are others that I've been considering. Baring in mind I'm waiting till after this bank holiday to actually view, but do any of these jump out to anyone?

http://www.willowtree-marina.co.uk/brokerage/Image files/Honey Badger.pdf

https://www.aquavista.com/buy-or-sell-a-boat/boats-for-sale/invincible

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/94662434#/media?channel=RES_BUY&id=media1

 

Thanks again, very quick and VERY helpful responses. 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Berk-shire Spring is a name I think would suit me quite well.

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, PabloC said:

Thanks, this is the boat in question - https://www.aquavista.com/buy-or-sell-a-boat/boats-for-sale/bambi

I didn't think of it as being trapped in the marina but that does make sense. I guess I'm thinking of it as similar to a flat, which is effect is trapped in its location too. Already very helpful responses - especially about the white elephant/stepping stone idea. 

 

If you intend to insure it fully comprehensive then it will require a lift-out and full hull survey, so you need to consider how and where that could be undertaken (and how you'd get it there if is unpowered).

You can get 3rd party insurance which is sufficient to apply for your licence, but obviously any looses would not be paid out, it is all at your risk (and expense)

If it sinks you lose all of your equipment and the boat itself.

 

As a newbie to boats I'd always advise you to have a survey - certainly on an older boat, it could be just the rust holding it together.

[Tracy D'arth]

Suggestion.

 

Look North, find a mooring away from the overheated overpriced South East.    Buy a cheap narrow boat, as long as it is floating, 46' to 50' in the north for half the southern price.

 

Live on it for a year whilst you find another better boat. One that you now know what you want, sell the cheapy down south at a profit  and go from there.

[MtB]

17 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Buy a cheap narrow boat, as long as it is floating, 46' to 50' in the north for half the southern price.

 

^^^ This ^^^

 

There is no doubt, your first boat will always be a mistake so buy a cheap one so as not to lose too much money on it. Once you've used it for 12 months you'll have a FAR clearer idea of what you actually want in a boat and I can almost guarantee it won't be what you think you want now.

 

Also, people get terribly hung up on getting surveys, when it was last blacked etc etc, but these things don't matter for a first boat you'll probably only keep for a year. 

 

I was imagining by 's/e on the water', you meant operating a fuel boat, being a boat mover, boat safety inspector, LPG gas engineer, general mechanic or some such water-related occupation, but journalism strikes me as totally unconnected and I don't really see how living aboard or not has any impact of that. Am I missing something? 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by MtB

[dmr]

Thats not the boat I was thinking off, and is much better (less bad?) but at 14 foot wide and 3 foot deep is not really a viable cruising boat.

If you really want to live on a static boat then it might be ok but its not a standard fat narrowboat which is what people want these days, so might not sell on too easily.

 

I go along with Tracy, get a narrowboat and see how you get on. Widebeams, and especially static widebeams, are often for dreamers who dream of boat life but can't let go of the house concept. If you want to be a boater then throw yourself 100% into boat life.

 

As you are already self employed and have work coming in then boat life is viable, though living on the water does sap the work ethic so duscipline is needed.

 

I've been self employed doing computer stuff, and CCing, for over ten years now. Working on the boat is good, especially if you can mostly work in the evenings. Meetings and any on-site work etc is really difficult as the real world becomes quite alien, and a boaters idea of smart clothes is very different to what others might expect. Boots and muddy trowsers are pretty much standard.

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, PabloC said:

Thanks, this is the boat in question - https://www.aquavista.com/buy-or-sell-a-boat/boats-for-sale/bambi

The ad is silent on the matter of an engine. Usually they mention it if a craft has no engine.

Looks like a lighter, which has had the original back end cut off and a square stern fitted. There looks to be a rudder, so it was probably intended to be motorised when converted, whether or not an engine was actually fitted. Can't tell from the info and photos provided, but there is probably an engine room space below the wheelhouse floor.

At 14ft beam it can be moved on the lower Grand Union, so you could get it towed elsewhere for survey, repairs and blacking.

Aquavista no longer publish their mooring charges on their website, but they used to have three grades of mooring - leisure, high intensity and residential. This will come into the last (and most expensive) category, but gets you a bankside (not jetty) mooring, garden and shed, and probably a postal address. Electricity and water are supplied from the bollard you can see in the photos. Electricity will be metered, water free - fill up the boat's water tank as required- don't plumb it in permanently as a leak could have catastrophic consequences. It has a cassette toilet so you will have to carry the cassette to the emptying point somewhere on site as and when.

Edited April 18, 2022 by David Mack

[PabloC]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you intend to insure it fully comprehensive then it will require a lift-out and full hull survey, so you need to consider how and where that could be undertaken (and how you'd get it there if is unpowered).

You can get 3rd party insurance which is sufficient to apply for your licence, but obviously any looses would not be paid out, it is all at your risk (and expense)

If it sinks you lose all of your equipment and the boat itself.

 

As a newbie to boats I'd always advise you to have a survey - certainly on an older boat, it could be just the rust holding it together.

Thanks, I'd always look for fully comp. 

 

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Suggestion.

 

Look North, find a mooring away from the overheated overpriced South East.    Buy a cheap narrow boat, as long as it is floating, 46' to 50' in the north for half the southern price.

 

Live on it for a year whilst you find another better boat. One that you now know what you want, sell the cheapy down south at a profit  and go from there.

That's a good idea, thanks.

Edited April 18, 2022 by PabloC

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, PabloC said:

This is exactly what I thought, water = lifestyle change. It's the daily routine I thought I'd need to ease into - emptying the toilet, managing the electrical usage, managing the heat - all the usual things us newbies ask lol.

 

You touch upon a very important aspect of bating life "managing electrical demand".

 

Even plugged into a shoreline you have a very limited supply compared to a house / flat.

Typically, a 'bollard' will give you a 16 amp supply which equates to ~3600 watts.

 

This means that (say) you have a 2kw(2000w) electric kettle and a 2Kw (2000w) vaccum cleaner you cannot use them both together or you will 'pop the trip switches' on the bollard.

You will need some form of water heating (which from the details suggest it is electric) so again, you may not be able to run your computer if the water heating is "on" 

"....whilst her solar panels provide sufficient energy to power lighting and water heating for the majority of the year"

 

I very much doubt this from the limited number you can see on the pictures, and, the "majority" of the year could be viewed as 6 months and 1 day.

 

Once you are off the landline you become your own power station and you have to manufacture every "watt", your usage MUST become more frugal unless you have a generator installed.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[PabloC]

50 minutes ago, dmr said:

If you want to be a boater then throw yourself 100% into boat life.

Boots and muddy trowsers are pretty much standard.

Lol. That's me now, and I don't have the excuse of living on a boat ....

 

58 minutes ago, MtB said:

I was imagining by 's/e on the water', you meant operating a fuel boat, being a boat mover, boat safety inspector, LPG gas engineer, general mechanic or some such water-related occupation, but journalism strikes me as totally unconnected and I don't really see how living aboard or not has any impact of that. Am I missing something? 

I just meant, at the moment I'm fixed to a lecturing job as well. At some point I'd like to become fully self employed which would allow me to travel and work at the same time.

 

24 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The ad is silent on the matter of an engine. Usually they mention it if a craft has no engine.

Looks like a lighter, which has had the original back end cut off and a square stern fitted. There looks to be a rudder, so it was probably intended to be motorised when converted, whether or not an engine was actually fitted. Can't tell from the info and photos provided, but there is probably an engine room space below the wheelhouse floor.

At 14ft beam it can be moved on the lower Grand Union, so you could get it towed elsewhere for survey, repairs and blacking.

Aquavista no longer publish their mooring charges on their website, but they used to have three grades of mooring - leisure, high intensity and residential. This will come into the last (and most expensive) category, but gets you a bankside (not jetty) mooring, garden and shed, and probably a postal address. Electricity and water are supplied from the bollard you can see in the photos. Electricity will be metered, water free - fill up the boat's water tank as required- don't plumb it in permanently as a leak could have catastrophic consequences. It has a cassette toilet so you will have to carry the cassette to the emptying point somewhere on site as and when.

Thanks, interesting info. I guess I need to find the mooring costs before anything else

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, PabloC said:

Thanks, I'd always look for fully comp. 

 

Whereas I always buy third party. 

 

A boat sinking is a very rare occurrence and unless it would destroy you financially to lose an old cheap boat, it avoids a world of inconvenience complying with the InsCo demand for a hull survey every few years and considerable extra expense.

 

[PabloC]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Whereas I always buy third party. 

 

A boat sinking is a very rare occurrence and unless it would destroy you financially to lose an old cheap boat, it avoids a world of inconvenience complying with the InsCo demand for a hull survey every few years and considerable extra expense.

 

That's interesting. I guess its swings and roundabouts depending on the trust in the hull condition etc?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, PabloC said:

Thanks, interesting info. I guess I need to find the mooring costs before anything else

 

I seem to remember that the last time they were published (before Aquavista took them over) they were around the £10,000+ per annum

 

 

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

Whereas I always buy third party. 

 

A boat sinking is a very rare occurrence and unless it would destroy you financially to lose an old cheap boat, it avoids a world of inconvenience complying with the InsCo demand for a hull survey every few years and considerable extra expense.

 

 

 

Agreed, but if he is working on the boat and has £1000's of pounds worth of equipment, computers etc for his consultancy business which he cannot afford to lose it may not be in his best interest.

 

Some people are more risk averse than others.

[Slow and Steady]

Apollo duck listing states "no engine".

At the price, considering the uplift for a boat on a nice residential mooring in that area, you have to wonder what the actual boat is worth.

Looks pretty cool for "somewhere to live" that's a bit different IMO.

I missed my opportunity to live and work on a boat when I was younger (wife said no chance). Like the OP I could have worked from anywhere. I regret that, I should have divorced earlier.

I wouldn't be too put off personally, because of the area/resi mooring I think you'd sell it on ok, but that's the rub - you won't have any security and you might just find £20k of that sale price is going to the mooring provider to allow it to stay there for the sale and who knows how long after. This would be my only real concern - if they decided to chuck you off the mooring you would be in a very awkward situation.

I also wouldn't worry about fully comp, if it sinks they'll have a get-out clause along the lines of you not maintaining it in floaty condition anyway.

 

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, PabloC said:

That's interesting. I guess its swings and roundabouts depending on the trust in the hull condition etc?

 

Sinkings are usual locking accidents. Fire is also a source of total loss, there are several every year.  Sinking is unlikely to be an issue on a static liveaboard boat, it does happen but its usually self inflicted.