Overpriced or worth it? How much to offer for a boat needing hull servicing?

[VandeBloom]

Hello there,

 

I'm currently looking into buying a wide beam barge 57x10ft, built in 2004. First impression of the boat - inside all lovely and well looked after, has a BSS until 2023. Upon seeing the last full survey report from 2019 it turns out that the motor hasn't been serviced and the hull needed taking care of already back then. No major diminution of hull thickness though - back then. I'm currently awaiting to hear if any works had been done upon this survey, but I do doubt it. So as it looks like, I'd have to have the barge grid blasted and epoxy hulled (at least I'd prefer to get the long term option done now, instead of bitumen, if the boats already out of water), anodes fitted and some rust taken care of above water. After my now intended pre - purchase inspection and if things didn't deteriorate much within this past 2 years, fingers crossed. In between the survey I'd need to agree on a sales price, getting the works hopefully done on the same dry dock and only then going back into water, so logistically a bit of a faff, but I hope doable if worth it.

 

My question is - the owner wants currently 105.000£ for this boat, which was apparently more or less what she paid for it in 2019, but it doesn't look like the boat has been taken care of/ I'd be the one to having to take care of it now (it was epoxy hulled 7 years ago, but damage to the epoxy already visible in 2019).

 

How much would this boat be worth, taking the repairs into consideration? Could any experienced boaters have a rough idea with above details in mind? The boat is moored on a pied - a - terre in London, but will have to move because of construction works coming up, so a slight question mark here.

 

If anyone might have a number coming to mind of what  price I could offer and would be still fair and what would be definitely overpriced, I'd be hugely grateful! (Hoping to be first time boat owner here, so any advice or heads up will be greatly appreciated!) 

 

With many thanks to everyone who might take the time to get back to me about this! :-)

[blackrose]

Who's the builder, or have I missed that bit?

[David Mack]

Too many unknowns to advise a value. This is where your surveyor can advise.

Be aware that dry docks get booked up, and there's no guarantee the dock you use for survey will be available for the week+ it will take for the hull to be grit blasted and expoxied. But 7 year old epoxy should not need complete blasting - just pressure washing, abrading the surface to give a key, then wire brushing or discing to remove any loose, damaged or rusty areas followed by patch priming and a couple of all over coats.

Make sure you allow the full curing time after the last coat before refloating. Some yards refloat as soon as the blacking is touch dry and that stops the coating curing properly.

Edited February 6, 2022 by David Mack

[VandeBloom]

Hello and thank you already for both replies - I thought I may missing out on loads of more details putting up question, so thank you for making me aware! The hull is manufactured by Liverpool Boats.

 

Thanks you so much regarding the repair/dock - advice - it's a little bit intimidating at the beginning! 

[ditchcrawler]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

  But 7 year old epoxy should not need complete blasting - just pressure washing, abrading the surface to give a key, then wire brushing or discing to remove any loose, damaged or rusty areas followed by patch priming and a couple of all over coats.

Make sure you allow the full curing time after the last coat before refloating. Some yards refloat as soon as the blacking is touch dry and that stops the coating curing properly.

My day in Court with Collingwood Boat Builders – Retirement with No Problem

[booke23]

I agree with @David Mack, there are a lot of variables. On the face of it it does seem grossly overpriced…..a very nice 2016 60x9ft Collingwood just sold on the K&A for £95k. A quite nice 2008 60x11ft boat also sold recently on the K&A for £64k.

 

However your example is in London where the sky’s the limit when it comes to prices. I imagine if that boat were anywhere else but  London, it’d be worth about half (give or take) what they’re asking.

[Bee]

The slight question is in fact a major question. Moorings are not easy to find and insecure even if you do find one and of course London is in a league of its own. so you could well be looking at the reason the boat is for sale. A boat without a mooring - especially a big boat with limited places it can actually get to - is a headache and you can feel awfully vulnerable to officialdom if you find yourself with no trouble free home to go to. 

         The hull is probably perfectly OK but it might not be so a hull survey is needed and craning out or dry docking is actually quite a big job. Our boat is approx half the area of yours and when I get the thing hauled out and lie underneath it scraping barnacles off it my heart sinks, as for buying the paint, 3 or 4 coats, my wallet sinks. It sounds expensive to me. There are a lot of very good boats out there at very much less money and although narrow boats are, well, narrow and wide boats make good homes I would keep on looking. Good luck.

[Athy]

For Vande's information, Collingwood are the successors to Liverpool Boats, and both firm involved the McNaughton family.

However, its clear from the judge's decision that the company was not to blame for the condition of the boat mentioned in the quoted case.

[blackrose]

18 minutes ago, VandeBloom said:

Hello and thank you already for both replies - I thought I may missing out on loads of more details putting up question, so thank you for making me aware! The hull is manufactured by Liverpool Boats.

 

 

That's expensive for 18 year old 57 x 10ft Liverpool Boat. That's about what they used to cost brand new fully fitted!

 

I know used boat prices are high but that seems too high to me.

 

Edit: Ah yes, if it includes the London mooring transfer to the new owner then it could be any price.

Edited February 6, 2022 by blackrose

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, Athy said:

For Vande's information, Collingwood are the successors to Liverpool Boats, and both firm involved the McNaughton family.

However, its clear from the judge's decision that the company was not to blame for the condition of the boat mentioned in the quoted case.

Bit like the judge who said a boat was not fit for purpose because it couldn't get up the Llangollen canal which put the builder into bankruptcy

[Guest]

The seller sounds like a bit of a chancer hoping to cash in on a booming property market and a boom in demand for boats, especially in London. I suspect he or she is hoping that a buyer wont be too concerned about hull repairs and is willing to take a chance.

 

As others have said its pretty well impossible to gauge the extent and cost of repairs needed based on the provided info.

[blackrose]

23 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Too many unknowns to advise a value. This is where your surveyor can advise.

Be aware that dry docks get booked up, and there's no guarantee the dock you use for survey will be available for the week+ it will take for the hull to be grit blasted and expoxied. But 7 year old epoxy should not need complete blasting - just pressure washing, abrading the surface to give a key, then wire brushing or discing to remove any loose, damaged or rusty areas followed by patch priming and a couple of all over coats.

Make sure you allow the full curing time after the last coat before refloating. Some yards refloat as soon as the blacking is touch dry and that stops the coating curing properly.

 

That's all good advice from David. If you're doing the painting yourself make sure you download the paint technical data sheets and understand how to mix and apply the epoxy. Always mix the paint thoroughly before decanting and mixing with hardener in the correct proportions. Because of curing times before full immersion you'll be better off with a winter grade hardener even in summer. Just be aware of the pot life which should be detailed in the TDS.

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, VandeBloom said:

The hull is manufactured by Liverpool Boats.

 

O'dear.

Is it banana shaped ?

[MtB]

52 minutes ago, VandeBloom said:

The boat is moored on a pied - a - terre in London, but will have to move because of construction works coming up, so a slight question mark here.

 

I'm with Bee on this. The above is not a slight question mark, but the whole reason for selling I'd suggest.

 

As per the other thread about whether a mooring adds value to a boat, I'd say she is hoping to sell the boat with no mooring for the same price she paid for it WITH a good London mooring. I suggest you think long and hard about where you are going to moor the boat before agreeing to buy it. And if you plan to CC, think long and hard about why this boat in particular and not another one similar from elsewhere, for a good many fewer beer tokens.

 

 

34 minutes ago, VandeBloom said:

The hull is manufactured by Liverpool Boats.

 

Ah yes, the Trabants of the canal boat world. 

 

Every expense spared in their design and manufacture in my personal experience. Mind you they have their fans, one will pop up soon to argue with me about this shortly, no doubt! 

Edited February 6, 2022 by MtB
Finesse a point.

[nb Innisfree]

"The flimsier the product, the higher the price." 

 

Ferengi rules of acquisition - No. 82

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, MtB said:

 Mind you they have their fans, one will pop up soon to argue with me about this shortly, no doubt! 

 

Probably because there are many many very happy Liverpool boat owners out there.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

 

However, its clear from the judge's decision that the company was not to blame for the condition of the boat mentioned in the quoted case.

What is clear is that the judge came to that conclusion. It isn't at all clear that is actually the case.  There is plenty of evidence on the webpage quoted, in other threads on this forum, and elsewhere on the internet, that not all Collingwood boats are properly prepped and painted.

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

Mind you they have their fans, one will pop up soon to argue with me about this shortly, no doubt! 

 

Yes I'll argue with you. I've been living on mine for the last 17 years. It had it's issues that needed to be rectified, but what boat doesn't? I've seen Colecraft boats with plenty of quality issues too.

 

In my experience LBs were solidly built boats and since they built more boats than just about any other builder they can't have been that bad.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Probably because there are many many very happy Liverpool boat owners out there.

 

Indeed there are.

[matty40s]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

What is clear is that the judge came to that conclusion. It isn't at all clear that is actually the case.  There is plenty of evidence on the webpage quoted, in other threads on this forum, and elsewhere on the internet, that not all Collingwood boats are properly prepped and painted.

The couple should have had some legal representation and brought along their own industry expert to show the Collingwood experts comments up for the lies they were.

[ditchcrawler]

8 minutes ago, matty40s said:

The couple should have had some legal representation and brought along their own industry expert to show the Collingwood experts comments up for the lies they were.

It looks as if Sue represented her self and relied on what she took with her,

 

So I packed in my bundle of evidence all I could about blacking a boat and how long that blacking should last.  More on mill scale from the British Marine Federation and others, more on the difference between bitumen and two-pack and the length of time between docking boats for re-blacking.  Of course I also had a Marine Surveyor’s Report in which he concluded..

[VandeBloom]

Hello and thank you to all for your time and valuable advice and information!

 

To add a few things regarding this mooring - everything is a little bit up in a limbo and I'm trying to get written confirmation of all I'll be mentioning. So far the really lovely harbour master of the potential wharf gave me all following information on the phone: 

 

There is this huge rejuvenating project running in Brentford - trying to revive and upgrade the area. The boat of interest is on the river Brent and has this pied a terre mooring there. The mooring is at the moment for 2% transferrable and for London comfortably low (I guess because it's quite industrial for now). The investor who will have us/ the boaters move then for around a year to complete the constructions, is apparently liable for compensating "us" and "take care of the resident boaters" during the time we'd have to move to other basins. Apparently.

 

Also apparently, afterwards the boaters will retain there berths, got residential moorings promised, with a 5 - year stretch of slowly but surely increased mooring costs, as they (the investors) will surely want to have their share of it by the end of it all. The lady will stop running the marina, it will be run by the new investor, so new mooring agreements coming along... I got in touch with these investors to see if any of this  word by mouth info can be confirmed by writing, so I'd know  what to rely on and what not... I personally think, if the boat was in good condition and it is true that I could keep my mooring for a couple of years for a relatively low price in London and might have time to consider and prepare to move to another mooring within the amount of up to 7 years, then I'd be a pretty happy sausage. But as I think it's getting more and more obvious - there are a LOT of things for me to find out and think hard about, the state of the hull needing asap work did add up strongly to this and as lots mentioned here on the thread - I had counted with a higher cost because of being situated in London, but with all these issues coming up I just needed to hear from some people with boating experience if this was a price I'd be rude to dodge or if my concerns surrounding all facts around this boat and mooring should clearly be reflected in the offer. If fixing it up now, it would all be because of an actual mooring tied to it - I admittedly saw boats in better condition which are though continuous cruisers that I heavy heartedly better don't even go viewing - I've been told and made aware of more than once, that finding an own mooring in London AND getting your own boat of desire on top of is a thing of impossibility - other than one is prepared to wait unknown amounts of years - precious lifetime I'd rather spend on a canal! X-D

 

Thanks to all again for the help! If I may ask one more question please - which manufacturer of wide beams would be a good choice? Are there any commendable ones out there, as I've mentioned - I am a wanna - be boater, so I do lack experience and am absolutely grateful for any kind of advice regarding built quality, what to look out for and what brands may be of higher standards than others. 

 

With many thanks to everyone,

Stefanie

[VandeBloom]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

O'dear.

Is it banana shaped ?

X-D yes, it could be sort of described like banana - shaped I suppose? Taken from you post I do assume this is not a good thing? 😅😆

 

[VandeBloom]

6 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

The seller sounds like a bit of a chancer hoping to cash in on a booming property market and a boom in demand for boats, especially in London. I suspect he or she is hoping that a buyer wont be too concerned about hull repairs and is willing to take a chance.

 

As others have said its pretty well impossible to gauge the extent and cost of repairs needed based on the provided info.

Hello Happy Nomad,

 

Thank you so much for your reply - I think you may be perfectly right about the London - Boom thing. This is why I wanted to ask if this price is somewhat to be expected to be accepted by me given all these hiccups coming up or if it might be even for London overpriced... 😆

 

To mention a few more details about the hull - there was corrosion found on the bottom and sides of the hull, epoxy apparently either not well applied or somehow damaged he wrote - the rudder keeps bashing into the hull rear (there must have happened a bump into something at some point) causing a big dent and is in need of welding. Anodes should have been exchanged and he advised that the boat should be taken out of water as soon as possible to fix the corrosion of the hull, back in 2019. He suggested that one should prepare to grit blast and epoxy to protect the hull. Mentioned the bitumen option but only to delay the grit blasting and epoxy job for another three years. The vessel had though not lost too much thickness of hull and would have still fallen into a normal insurance risk at the time. As non of the blacking or any repairs was mentioned in the advert for the boat I am now simply assuming that nothing (at least substantial) got actually fixed after the last survey and the boat went straight back into the water. 😅 I will though know more tomorrow I hope, fingers crossed!  If you'd tell me that all above are horrendous works to be left for resale, then I'll just be so free and knock off 50.000£! 😆

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, VandeBloom said:

Hello Happy Nomad,

 

Thank you so much for your reply - I think you may be perfectly right about the London - Boom thing. This is why I wanted to ask if this price is somewhat to be expected to be accepted by me given all these hiccups coming up or if it might be even for London overpriced... 😆

 

To mention a few more details about the hull - there was corrosion found on the bottom and sides of the hull, epoxy apparently either not well applied or somehow damaged he wrote - the rudder keeps bashing into the hull rear (there must have happened a bump into something at some point) causing a big dent and is in need of welding. Anodes should have been exchanged and he advised that the boat should be taken out of water as soon as possible to fix the corrosion of the hull, back in 2019. He suggested that one should prepare to grit blast and epoxy to protect the hull. Mentioned the bitumen option but only to delay the grit blasting and epoxy job for another three years. The vessel had though not lost too much thickness of hull and would have still fallen into a normal insurance risk at the time. As non of the blacking or any repairs was mentioned in the advert for the boat I am now simply assuming that nothing (at least substantial) got actually fixed after the last survey and the boat went straight back into the water. 😅 I will though know more tomorrow I hope, fingers crossed!  If you'd tell me that all above are horrendous works to be left for resale, then I'll just be so free and knock off 50.000£! 😆

 

Nearly three years is a long time between work needed being identified but not rectified.

 

One thing you can be sure of is that its condition wont have improved in that period.

 

Good luck though.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by The Happy Nomad

[PD1964]

8 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

My day in Court with Collingwood Boat Builders – Retirement with No Problem

Edited February 7, 2022 by PD1964