Waste Disposal Market Research - 2

[neuton]

Neuton Website

Neuton LinkedIn

 

Hello everyone! Neuton here again. 
You might remember our fairly lacklustre post last week, but this time round, we hope to make things a lot clearer for all you lovely boaters. 
We got some fair critiques last time around that we hope to address. Linked above, we have the website and LinkedIn, which should now be easier to access. And now we've made it such that the questions we'll ask can be answered directly via the forum or direct message, with just one supplementary email required on your part. 

To make clear our strategy, we're not looking to reinvent the wheel with a purely carbon positive toilet just yet. Right now, we'd just like to make a product that improves upon some basic issues we'd imagine you guys have - such as odour, dumping frequency, and other problems that we can learn about through you, that hopefully with our design we can make less unpleasant. 

In order to participate in our data collection process, you can just post your answers to the questions below, and email rsinhaneuton@gmail.com with a copy of your consent form - Consent Form.docx - which deals with the GDPR side of things. If anyone has concerns about data, the form will go more into depth about how we adhere to GDPR policy, and we are listed on the ICO (information commissions) register - so we have to adhere to their regulatory frameworks too. 

 

The questions (please answer with as much detail as you can) - 
General [allows us to build user profile]
Age: 
Residential Status (Permanent/Semi-Permanent/Former Resident):
What type of toilet do you have?:
Do you have any mobility impairments, and if so, could you describe how this affects your experience?:

Specific [allows us to go further into potential design criterion]
What are the things you find inconvenient about your current toilet [odour, dumping frequency etc]? If there are multiple inconveniences, could you list them in order of most disruptive to least?
Have you done anything to try and solve this(these) inconvenience(s)? If so, did you find any solution, and how did this solve your problem?
What are the factors you consider when choosing a toilet?
Have you ever switched toilet suppliers, and if so, why?
How often do you switch toilet suppliers, if ever?
Where do you buy your toilets? How do you hear about where to buy them?
What would your budget be for buying a toilet?
Would you consider yourself environmentally conscious?
Are there any additional comments you'd like to tell me about your toilet experience, that I haven't already covered?

And that's all! Once you answer the questions, just email the finished consent form to rsinhaneuton@gmail.com with a note of your username, and we can officially use your dataset as a part of our design process. 
We understand this can be a tedious process, but it would mean the world to us if you could help in any way. Anyone that takes part can be added to the email newsletter - and we can keep you updated throughout our product development process!

Finally, a big thanks to everyone that contributed on our last forum post. We'd loved to have replied individually but thought it'd be best to start from clearer grounding.

Have a nice day everyone, 
Neuton (Rahul)
 

[Tony Brooks]

Well, as you did not bother to contact me by email you can be assured that I will not be wasting my time on you and your company.

[LadyG]

I m not really interested in your product, 

I have Thetford Excellence

Tx

Edited February 4, 2022 by LadyG

[PD1964]

Looks like everything has been set up in the last month or so, no real info on any of their sites, all looks a bit iffy with no real product. if you know what I mean.

[TheBiscuits]

10 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Looks like everything has been set up in the last month or so, no real info on any of their sites, all looks a bit iffy with no real product. if you know what I mean.

 

Er - isn't that because they are doing research before developing a product?

[PCSB]

15 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Looks like everything has been set up in the last month or so, no real info on any of their sites, all looks a bit iffy with no real product. if you know what I mean.

The domain name was registered in May last year by the looks. The site is built using the paid version of Wix so they have spent some money doing it. They have chosen to hide contact and registrant details which is fairly common these days. The site itself doesn't raise any red flags and there is a registered address on there too. It doesn't look like it is a scam. If it is as they state registered with the ICO then it most likely is legit (scam sites won't be registered), easy enough to check, just need the ICO registration number. 

 

Their objectives seem admirable if not a bit ambitious too. 

 

I think they are just starting out and in a research phase from the looks of things. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

A limited company NEUTON LTD overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK (company-information.service.gov.uk)

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Er - isn't that because they are doing research before developing a product?

  Well he has listed a few questions, fill your boots and give some answers to help. I won’t be bothering, probably like most on here.

Edited February 4, 2022 by PD1964

[Tony Brooks]

4 hours ago, neuton said:

Have you ever switched toilet suppliers, and if so, why?
How often do you switch toilet suppliers, if ever?
Where do you buy your toilets? How do you hear about where to buy them?

 

To my mind the above quote indicates little they have done to get even a basic understanding of boating & toilets. Do they think buying toilets is a daily, monthly, yearly, or five yearly occurrence. I accept a boater may change the toilet once in their ownership of the boat or if they use one of the cassette types a very few times because of cheap materials and design.

 

This has confirmed my impression from their first post and that is why I offered to talk to them about how toilets interface with the other boat systems. They obviously think they know all about the practical requirements of boat toilets so stand a very good chance of designing something that has too high an energy demand.

[neuton]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Well, as you did not bother to contact me by email you can be assured that I will not be wasting my time on you and your company.

Hi Tony,

We very much apologise for not reaching out sooner. There's no excuse we can really make here, and we're sorry if we've inconvenienced you in any way. We're still an early stage startup, so you can imagine the demands that are on as a relatively understaffed team. 
We plan to reach out to you immediately, as we know your expertise will be invaluable. 

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

I m not really interested in your product, 

I have Thetford Excellence

Tx

Hi! Thank you for the reply! 

I wonder if you could help us out by answering some of the other questions? We aren't trying to sell anyone a product at this stage, just to gather some research we can use for our design specifications. 

2 hours ago, PD1964 said:

Looks like everything has been set up in the last month or so, no real info on any of their sites, all looks a bit iffy with no real product. if you know what I mean.

Hi - you're absolutely right in the fact that we're very new on the scene. We started off with a team of 2, and have just expanded to a team of 5, which has allowed us to spend more of our resources on things like websites and such as you've noticed. 

[neuton]

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Er - isn't that because they are doing research before developing a product?

Hi - you're spot on. We are currently in the research stage. 

2 hours ago, PCSB said:

The domain name was registered in May last year by the looks. The site is built using the paid version of Wix so they have spent some money doing it. They have chosen to hide contact and registrant details which is fairly common these days. The site itself doesn't raise any red flags and there is a registered address on there too. It doesn't look like it is a scam. If it is as they state registered with the ICO then it most likely is legit (scam sites won't be registered), easy enough to check, just need the ICO registration number. 

 

Their objectives seem admirable if not a bit ambitious too. 

 

I think they are just starting out and in a research phase from the looks of things. 

 

 

Hi! We are indeed registered through the ICO (it should say in the footer of our site now), and you're right in noticing we're indeed in the research phase. 

As for our objectives, we'll certainly go for them, no matter how ambitious they may seem. 
Is there any chance you could help us out with our questions?

[Kate_MM]

This all sounds very positive and interesting. I've been involved in composting humanure for eight years now - and probably have much of the data that you are looking for in terms of boater's experience of the pros and cons of the various boat toilet options.

 

I tried to find more about your project via the G-BiB competition, but only found the winner (also York University I see) so I don't know what kind of product you have in mind. My principal concern and criticism of many of the innovative ideas that have appeared over the last decade is that they tend to be over complicated, over engineered and well, just, over everything! Whilst I'm sure that the Gates Foundation (your sole ref on your website) is well intentioned, the examples of work I've seen coming from it are all of those things. Just too complicated. 

 

You have set an ambitious target to address sanitation poverty and I'm not sure how you think information from us will help that.  I don't want to be discouraging but a small scale self selected sample isn't a very rigorous way to start your research. Coming from a public health research background and having carried out a large scale (1700 but also self selected so impossible to extrapolate from) survey I'm sure that you have addressed the following because it must be part of being accepted by the university - but I suggest you really need to get some of your early thinking and rationale on to your website.

1. What IS your research question?
2. Have you done a literature search?
3. What projects (worldwide) have you identified and what outcomes have they demonstrated
4. Who do you want to interview as your starting point and why? What do you hope to learn from each group you have identified?
5. Have you read The Humanure Handbook by Joseph Jenkins? If not, it's a very good starting point...

In terms of boating we already have a solution. Composting.  At a domestic level is a very simple approach that needs very little resource or equipment and produces a valuable product to return to the soil. It's an approach that translates well to remote rural communities but presents complex challenges for urban environments meaning that you need to be clear where you are going to know whether input from us and our world will help you get there. 

 

In terms of boating you are addressing a community that already has a solution. I suggest that you find and join    https://www.facebook.com/groups/compostingloos

 

All the best for your research and development.

 

Kate Saffin RN, RHV, MPhil, PhD

Former researcher in public health 

Enthusiastic advocate of not wasting our waste

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Kate_MM

[Tony Brooks]

11 minutes ago, Kate_MM said:

In terms of boating we already have a solution. Composting.

 

If that is what you think then you clearly have not done any research on this or the CaRT website. It is only a solution if the boater has land upon which they properly complete the composting. I have no idea about your product but from what I can gather most toilets claiming to be composting are really separating and dedicating toilets that still leave the liquid and desiccated poo to be disposed of in a responsible manner and it is the responsible bit that I doubt any boater who continually cruisers can comply with.

 

You are aware that it seems CaRT and many marinas  have banned the disposal of the solid waste in their waste bins?

 

So will you explain how those with no facilities to complete the composting deal with the solid waste and then how any boater can deal with liquid waste.

[TheBiscuits]

42 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

you clearly have not done any research on this or the CaRT website

 

Tony, if Kate is the person I'm thinking of then she's the one CRT ask about composting loos!

 

She's probably the UK expert in composting onboard boats.  Feel free to sign up for a webinar if you want full details, but leave the kneejerk reaction out please.

[neuton]

1 hour ago, Kate_MM said:

This all sounds very positive and interesting. I've been involved in composting humanure for eight years now - and probably have much of the data that you are looking for in terms of boater's experience of the pros and cons of the various boat toilet options.

 

I tried to find more about your project via the G-BiB competition, but only found the winner (also York University I see) so I don't know what kind of product you have in mind. My principal concern and criticism of many of the innovative ideas that have appeared over the last decade is that they tend to be over complicated, over engineered and well, just, over everything! Whilst I'm sure that the Gates Foundation (your sole ref on your website) is well intentioned, the examples of work I've seen coming from it are all of those things. Just too complicated. 

 

You have set an ambitious target to address sanitation poverty and I'm not sure how you think information from us will help that.  I don't want to be discouraging but a small scale self selected sample isn't a very rigorous way to start your research. Coming from a public health research background and having carried out a large scale (1700 but also self selected so impossible to extrapolate from) survey I'm sure that you have addressed the following because it must be part of being accepted by the university - but I suggest you really need to get some of your early thinking and rationale on to your website.

1. What IS your research question?
2. Have you done a literature search?
3. What projects (worldwide) have you identified and what outcomes have they demonstrated
4. Who do you want to interview as your starting point and why? What do you hope to learn from each group you have identified?
5. Have you read The Humanure Handbook by Joseph Jenkins? If not, it's a very good starting point...

In terms of boating we already have a solution. Composting.  At a domestic level is a very simple approach that needs very little resource or equipment and produces a valuable product to return to the soil. It's an approach that translates well to remote rural communities but presents complex challenges for urban environments meaning that you need to be clear where you are going to know whether input from us and our world will help you get there. 

 

In terms of boating you are addressing a community that already has a solution. I suggest that you find and join    https://www.facebook.com/groups/compostingloos

 

All the best for your research and development.

 

Kate Saffin RN, RHV, MPhil, PhD

Former researcher in public health 

Enthusiastic advocate of not wasting our waste

 

Hi Kate,

 

Thank you for reaching out. 
Is it possible you would be free to exchange a few emails, or set up a call? 
We can be found at neutonltd@gmail.com. 

We've read the Humanure handbook and interviewed users with compost toilets. We'd also love to discuss in further depth why we've chosen this particular market first. 

Thanks again, 
Neuton

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If that is what you think then you clearly have not done any research on this or the CaRT website. It is only a solution if the boater has land upon which they properly complete the composting. I have no idea about your product but from what I can gather most toilets claiming to be composting are really separating and dedicating toilets that still leave the liquid and desiccated poo to be disposed of in a responsible manner and it is the responsible bit that I doubt any boater who continually cruisers can comply with.

 

You are aware that it seems CaRT and many marinas  have banned the disposal of the solid waste in their waste bins?

 

So will you explain how those with no facilities to complete the composting deal with the solid waste and then how any boater can deal with liquid waste.

Kate is a lovely lady. She is away with the faireys, but does live on and has lived aboard for many years. She is a boater that knows her stuff. She does have a mooring though. Personaly I dont see any problem whatsoever with the tried and tested, easy and cheap to use Porta Bog/cassette offerings.

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Tony, if Kate is the person I'm thinking of then she's the one CRT ask about composting loos!

 

She's probably the UK expert in composting onboard boats.  Feel free to sign up for a webinar if you want full details, but leave the kneejerk reaction out please.

 

So with CaRT and some marinas banning the disposal of the slid waste in bins (unless that has been rescinded, but I have not heard that it has) and anecdotal evidence the liquid waste often either goes into the canal or along the hedge line and the desiccated solids can get put down and block up Elsan point you think it is knee jerk to counter her assertion that composting toilets have solved the toilet problem on boats, especially those CCing.

 

She is free to come on here and explain how such toilets solve the issues unless you have land based long term composting facilities like Peter but so far she has chosen not to. That is her prerogative as it is to post what seem to me misleading claims, but it is my prerogative to point out the weak points to try to warn others things may not be as cut and dry as she makes out.

 

Edited to add:

 

Consult any book on composting and you will find it needs moisture, if you separate the liquid and then desiccate the solids and seal it in a plastic bag/bin where will the moisture come from to re-hydrate it enough start composting? In Peter's case it seems it is the liquid in other green waste, rain and in hot, dry spells I expect Peter waters it as required. Just leaving bags of dehydrated poo under the bed or on the roof is unlikely to result in composting in any meaningful way unless you water and turn it. Funny I don't see that mentioned n the bog blurb.

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[blackrose]

Hahaha. This toilet thread is more bizarre than most I've seen on this forum. 

 

Before posting their questions all the OP had to do was read through a few of the toilet threads in the archives to understand the current toilet options, including the controversial and largely impractical composting toilet option that's been around over the last few years,

 

They'd have got a much better response from forum members I'm sure. 

 

Market research generally requires that some background research is conducted before reaching out into an unknown market.

Edited February 11, 2022 by blackrose

[Kate_MM]

4 hours ago, neuton said:

Hi Kate,

 

Thank you for reaching out. 
Is it possible you would be free to exchange a few emails, or set up a call? 
We can be found at neutonltd@gmail.com. 

We've read the Humanure handbook and interviewed users with compost toilets. We'd also love to discuss in further depth why we've chosen this particular market first. 

Thanks again, 
Neuton

 

Hi, it's so long since I've used the forum I couldn't remember how to reply! Hope I've hit the right button.

Yes, happy to have a conversation - perhaps sometime next week over Zoom.

I see you have joined the compost group. You might like to join the online event on Thursday evening where I'll be talking to two experts on the process of composting, John Cosham and Martin Doyle. 

I look forward to filling you in on some of the innovations that are already happening in the world of waterless toilet systems on boats.

 

All the best

Kate

[Alan de Enfield]

C&RTs latest update - their statement (from Today) regarding separating Toilets :

 

 

 

Separator loos

You may remember that last summer, and as referred to in the previous article, that a trial was ongoing in London to look at solutions for dealing with the waste from separator loos as it can no longer be ‘bagged and binned’ at our refuse sites. These are also known as composting loos but don’t actually do any composting. Instead, they separate the liquid and solid waste for disposal. This is where the trial comes in. First though, it’s worth revisiting the statement we made about separator/compost loos in March last year:

“If you’re considering getting a separator/compost toilet for your boat, please only do so if you have the ability to completely compost the solid waste from your toilet yourself or have access to somewhere that will do this for you. If you don’t have the ability to do this, then getting a composting/separator toilet is not the best solution for you. Pump out and elsan facilities are available across our network that boats with tanks or cassette toilets can use instead.

 

“If you currently have a separator/compost toilet on your boat and are not able to completely compost the solid waste from your toilet yourself or have access to somewhere that will do it for you, then the alternative disposal method of bagging and binning it is not an environmentally sustainable way to deal with this waste. Bagged solid waste disposed of in bins can also lead to cross contamination of other content, which otherwise is sorted and mostly recycled, and can require that the whole content of the bin needing to be disposed of in landfill. Sending waste to landfill adds costs as landfill taxes are charged.

“If you have a separator/compost toilet on your boat and have been putting bagged and binned waste in our waste bins, you need to find an alternative way to dispose of this waste. No bagged solid waste from separator/compost toilets should be disposed of in Canal & River Trust waste bins. If you boat in London and have a separator/compost toilet but no where to compost the waste yourself then the pilot separator/compost waste subscription collection scheme might be the answer for you (see details below).

For more information please have a read of the separator/compost toilet FAQs.

Do you have a composting toilet and not sure how to dispose of your poop safely and sustainably? Or looking to upgrade and not sure how’d you’d manage?

 

The London-based trial cited in the first article is a startup, which we support as part of the London Mooring Strategy, and run by boater Eve Mackinnon. Eve’s business, Circular Revolution, provides a revolutionary, zero-waste collection service that transforms toilet contents into a soil conditioner used to replenish depleted soils and brownfield sites.

It offers fortnightly, or monthly, collection services direct from your boat. Included in the collection fee is a replacement caddy and paper eco-sack, to safely contain toilet contents. Currently it is collecting along almost 30km of navigable canal in East and West London. Check its website for the most recent updates. A ‘pay-as-you-poo’ service is also available for larger volumes intended as one-off collections. Please enquire directly for any support. There is also a 20% discount for new customers!

[enigmatic]

Saw an article recently suggesting the future of separatong toilets and urinals was collecting the urine for industrial and fertiliser purposes.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00338-6

 

Seems like a better use of that part of a separating toilet output than tipping in the canal or into a hedge or down an elsan point. 

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

Seems like a better use of that part of a separating toilet output than tipping in the canal

 

I know more pumpout or cassette users that put buckets of wee in the canal than seperators/composters.  I do try my best to get them to stop tipping it in the canal.  Most of the composters are at least aware that it's a really bad idea.

 

It's one of my pet hates, and you can see it when you boat past a line of online moored boats.  Clear, clear, clear, enormous weed bed very lush green, clear, clear, enormous weed bed very lush green, clear, clear.

 

Look out for them.  The alternate tell is masses of nettles in the hedge the other side of the towpath.  Nettles absolutely adore urine as a fertiliser.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RTs latest update - their statement (from Today) regarding separating Toilets :

 

 

 

Separator loos

You may remember that last summer, and as referred to in the previous article, that a trial was ongoing in London to look at solutions for dealing with the waste from separator loos as it can no longer be ‘bagged and binned’ at our refuse sites. These are also known as composting loos but don’t actually do any composting. Instead, they separate the liquid and solid waste for disposal. This is where the trial comes in. First though, it’s worth revisiting the statement we made about separator/compost loos in March last year:

“If you’re considering getting a separator/compost toilet for your boat, please only do so if you have the ability to completely compost the solid waste from your toilet yourself or have access to somewhere that will do this for you. If you don’t have the ability to do this, then getting a composting/separator toilet is not the best solution for you. Pump out and elsan facilities are available across our network that boats with tanks or cassette toilets can use instead.

 

“If you currently have a separator/compost toilet on your boat and are not able to completely compost the solid waste from your toilet yourself or have access to somewhere that will do it for you, then the alternative disposal method of bagging and binning it is not an environmentally sustainable way to deal with this waste. Bagged solid waste disposed of in bins can also lead to cross contamination of other content, which otherwise is sorted and mostly recycled, and can require that the whole content of the bin needing to be disposed of in landfill. Sending waste to landfill adds costs as landfill taxes are charged.

“If you have a separator/compost toilet on your boat and have been putting bagged and binned waste in our waste bins, you need to find an alternative way to dispose of this waste. No bagged solid waste from separator/compost toilets should be disposed of in Canal & River Trust waste bins. If you boat in London and have a separator/compost toilet but no where to compost the waste yourself then the pilot separator/compost waste subscription collection scheme might be the answer for you (see details below).

For more information please have a read of the separator/compost toilet FAQs.

Do you have a composting toilet and not sure how to dispose of your poop safely and sustainably? Or looking to upgrade and not sure how’d you’d manage?

 

The London-based trial cited in the first article is a startup, which we support as part of the London Mooring Strategy, and run by boater Eve Mackinnon. Eve’s business, Circular Revolution, provides a revolutionary, zero-waste collection service that transforms toilet contents into a soil conditioner used to replenish depleted soils and brownfield sites.

It offers fortnightly, or monthly, collection services direct from your boat. Included in the collection fee is a replacement caddy and paper eco-sack, to safely contain toilet contents. Currently it is collecting along almost 30km of navigable canal in East and West London. Check its website for the most recent updates. A ‘pay-as-you-poo’ service is also available for larger volumes intended as one-off collections. Please enquire directly for any support. There is also a 20% discount for new customers!

 

So despite the above The Biscuits seem to think my pointing it out to the person promoting them as having solved the boat toilet problem was a knee jerk reaction.

[Kate_MM]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

So with CaRT and some marinas banning the disposal of the slid waste in bins (unless that has been rescinded, but I have not heard that it has) and anecdotal evidence the liquid waste often either goes into the canal or along the hedge line and the desiccated solids can get put down and block up Elsan point you think it is knee jerk to counter her assertion that composting toilets have solved the toilet problem on boats, especially those CCing.

 

She is free to come on here and explain how such toilets solve the issues unless you have land based long term composting facilities like Peter but so far she has chosen not to. That is her prerogative as it is to post what seem to me misleading claims, but it is my prerogative to point out the weak points to try to warn others things may not be as cut and dry as she makes out.

 

Edited to add:

 

Consult any book on composting and you will find it needs moisture, if you separate the liquid and then desiccate the solids and seal it in a plastic bag/bin where will the moisture come from to re-hydrate it enough start composting? In Peter's case it seems it is the liquid in other green waste, rain and in hot, dry spells I expect Peter waters it as required. Just leaving bags of dehydrated poo under the bed or on the roof is unlikely to result in composting in any meaningful way unless you water and turn it. Funny I don't see that mentioned n the bog blurb.

 

 

Dear Tony,

 

Please don't make assumptions about what I do/don't know; have/have not researched or assume that I have 'chosen not to' come and 'explain' why I have a composting system - I was simply busy elsewhere earlier and writing a careful detailed reply takes a lot of time.

 

My comment wasn't intended to start a debate about composting systems, it was to challenge what I saw as assumptions by the original poster that there have been no developments in the area of waterless toilets and composting systems. In response to the poster's plans for another product in the composting field, I stated that we have 'a' solution, that there are boaters who are already composting. I did not make any 'assertion that composting toilets have 'solved the toilet problem on boats' (is there even a toilet problem on boats? There's enough to choose from), or make any 'misleading claims' or suggest that anything is cut and dried. I simply commented on the very narrow issue of the aforementioned new product plans. 

 

However, your perception of what happens on a boat with a separating toilet is so far from both my personal and research experience and you have stated your 'facts' with such certainty (not to mention your judgement of my apparent failings) that I feel it is worth my spending some time  presenting what I hope will be a clearer picture for anyone who happens to be interested.

 

I have been composting on board a boat without a home mooring for eight years. I do not, as you seem to think, have a product. I do not make toilets - I run a touring theatre company. But I have done a huge amount of research and I yes, have read the CRT webpages. I wrote them in conjunction with several other boaters who also compost. However, you weren't to know that as they haven't acknowledged the boater input - it is clearly time I reminded them! I have also worked with them over the last year to address the issues raised by their, very unfortunate, earlier recommendation to bag and bin the contents of separating toilets. I have never endorsed that. Putting aside our cultural discomfort with the idea of poo in a bin, no organic material should end up in landfill, it creates methane and greenhouse gases. Food scraps, nappies, incontinence pads, colostomy/ileostomy bags... all add to this problem. Boaters binning the contents of the loo is a tiny proportion but one that I agree should not be happening. 

 

But it is, so we can all shout abuse at those who bought a separating toilet and thought they were following an accepted set of guidelines in the hopes that they will add their expensive toilet to the current landfill problem and return to the fold of 'proper toilets' or we can work with them to find a better way. I have worked with CRT over the last year to help them understand the underlying principles, practice and science; to develop a better set of guidelines for users for the website; to facilitate discussions between them and the manufacturers of toilets and to create a framework, guidelines and risk assessment templates for moorings, marinas and boat clubs who wish to host a community composting scheme. I am an admin for the compost toilets for boats and off grid living and spend at least 3-4 hrs a week advising and supporting those adopting composting and I run an online workshop/webinar about every 6-8 weeks. 

 

I didn't set out to become some sort of poo guru - I was on a short term mooring in London, about to leave the cosy environs of a gated wharf with a nice handy elsan for the wilds of the towpath and found that, of all the things I could be fretting about - bike theft, mugging, finding a mooring - emptying the porta potti was the one that kept me awake. You can't buy spare tanks for porta potti's for love nor money so I started looking at alternatives - long before it was the talk of the towpath. It never occurred to me to do anything other than fully compost, I read Joseph Jenkins Humanure Handbook four times and worked out a simple system that I felt I could manage on the boat. I made mistakes but gradually got the hang of it, and now have a system that runs very smoothly. After about a year, once I'd seen my first batch of compost composted, I started to think more about how much clean water we waste; I realised that where once I had regularly been splashed with sewage (however careful I was) when emptying the PP tank I hadn't once come into unplanned contact with the contents of my separating loo and finally, just how much we waste our waste. At about the same time, in Jan 2015, Colin Ives started the 'compost toilets on boats' group, so I joined. And then the former public health specialist in me got carried away with research...

 

Next, concerning CRT's position, it is more for them to say than me, but my impression following our various meetings and the work we have done is that:

 - the no binning edict came from Biffa, I have never really discovered what lay behind it or the knee jerk reaction that followed.

- they are not anti separating toilets or composting, in fact they seem to welcome some alternative/innovative approaches as the pressure on resources grows and adding more isn't simply a case of enough money, it's also whether they can connect to the existing infrastructure.

- they are willing to give permission for community composting schemes on their land and for offside moorings (that they won't give permission for towpath composting has nothing to do with poo being involved, it's the 'nothing on the towpath' rule) with appropriate safeguards in place. 

- They are also grant supporting a pilot scheme in London collecting and processing humanure from boats.

 

And we are beginning to see interest from boat clubs and marinas in composting - especially those reliant on expensive to maintain septic tanks. Only a few at the moment but I suspect it will grow as more see a financial advantage. 

 

I am, frankly, both puzzled and intrigued by your perception of what happens on a boat with a separating toilet.

You say 'Just leaving bags of dehydrated poo under the bed or on the roof is unlikely to result in composting in any meaningful way unless you water and turn it. Funny I don't see that mentioned n the bog blurb.'

The reason it isn't mentioned is because I have never known anyone have a bag of dehydrated poo.  There is only one type of loo, the Airhead, that aims to dry and dessicate and, in reality, it doesn't do that good a job of drying. It was originally designed for sailing boats in warm climes being used for holidays and weekends - not full time liveaboard in our somewhat damp environment. The usual grumble is that the contents are too heavy for the stirring device to turn properly. But... if you have documented evidence that this is a genuine issue then I will work with the Airhead specialist to create the right advice and add it to the 'bog blurb'. I think you may have added to the composting canon with 'bog blurb'. It shall be evermore known as thus!

 

This is what should happens, what all the workshops, advice, support, guidance is aiming to achieve:

 

Firstly, there is no such thing as a Composting Toilet, you will never hear me speak of such a thing, it is a Composting System. All toilets are funnels or collection units for later processing. In flushing systems by a sewage plant, in separating ones by composting. I have at last succeeded in shifting CRT's language from 'composting toilet' to 'separating toilet' i.e. a different sort of funnel.

 

Managing that system

Urine is very good source of nitrogen and diluted makes good fertiliser. Carol Steinfeld's book 'Liquid Gold' is a good reference for this. It is good for trees, it is not good for water, it adds too much nitrogen. Hence the advice to apply it diluted to a tree or use an elsan but never to pour it into the canal.

 

Solids - as I've said above the Airhead is the only type of toilet that claims to dry and desiccate the solids. Most involve adding carbon cover such as sawdust, wood cat litter, shredded soft word... to the poo to encourage the start of the bacterial action that is composting. The contents are not dry, our poo is about 70% water, so even without any urine added there is plenty of moisture. This primary stage is a collection stage, the conditions are set for composting but very little composting takes place. Some users line the primary container (the loo) with a bag, most don't.

 

Once the primary container is full it needs to complete the composting process. This is manageable on a boat and there are many who are doing it. The ideal is to create conditions for hot composting as it is quicker (3-4mths) but cold works, just slower - 8-10mths. This is the area where myths abound - images of vast quantities of sewage slopping around on the roof! In reality my 25L secondary composting container looks like a bucket of slightly moist soil and the contents shrink as the composting proceeds. The amounts are far smaller than most people who have never seen a composting system in action realise. 

 

Once fully composted mine goes to a friend's garden. Note: EA guidelines (which are somewhat out of date and were primarily written with the use of compost toilets for festivals in mind) state that humanure can be used on one's own land. I am interpreting that as private land with permission.

 

There are indeed some boaters who do irresponsible, inconsiderate or frankly unacceptable things. Some of them even do those things with the contents of their separating toilets but please don't assume that because a few do that, the rest of us must as well. Any more than you would assume that all cassette users empty into the canal because you've heard tell of someone who has done it. CRT don't have a breakdown of exactly what has caused the c £34,000 worth of elsan blockages over the last year but there is no indication that separating toilets are to blame any more often than wet wipes, and very possibly less. Apparently shoes are a regular find...

 

I hope this has clarified the reality of a composting system on a boat for anyone who is interested. I am not trying to 'solve any issues' as you imply, or attempting to convert anyone in any way.. I spend a lot of time telling people that it is not an easy choice. The easy choice is chuck it down an elsan and let someone else deal with it. But there are an increasing number who don't want to do that, for all sorts of reasons, and they are composting. 

 

It has taken my entire evening to frame this as carefully and accurately as I can, and, contrary to popular belief I do have a life, so if you or anyone wants to follow up any of these points please do so via the https://www.facebook.com/groups/compostingloos group. That was you can access all the research resources we have in the files section and hear the experience of many others, rather than just listen to me shouting 'there's no such thing as a composting toilet, only a composting system...'

 

G'night

Kate

[Kate_MM]

8 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Kate is a lovely lady. She is away with the faireys, but does live on and has lived aboard for many years. She is a boater that knows her stuff. She does have a mooring though. Personaly I dont see any problem whatsoever with the tried and tested, easy and cheap to use Porta Bog/cassette offerings.

 

Me? Away with the fairies... never! Tis nigh on 23 years I been afloat now but I don't have a mooring any more - if I did I probably would never have started composting. It was being in London and about to leave a temp mooring that started it. Very few elsans in London, and they are often out of service - and not always the fault of boaters, all of London's Victorian sewage infrastructure is creaking. I did keep the porta potti for some time in case it didn't work, thought I might go back to it when I was near proper facilities but somehow the joys of returning to pouring sewage into a smelly elsan never quite captured my imagination again. Really can't think why...