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12 v socket wiring - double checking


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On my boat the 12 volt sockets all have 230 v sockets with just the live and neutral wired in - I may have mentioned this before.

I am starting to replace them with C-Line type motorhome modular sockets and quietly confident about how to wire them in but just wanted to double check in case I make an arse of myself.

The one I am replacing first is a double 230 v socket to a two-module unit: one with a 12 v cigar-type socket and the other with twin USB sockets.

Forgive the crude, hastily knocked-up diagram, but is this wiring correct, please?

 

Thanks

 
   

12 volt wiring diagram.jpg

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8 minutes ago, RickS said:

but is this wiring correct, please?

 

Yes.

 

8 minutes ago, RickS said:

On my boat the 12 volt sockets all have 230 v sockets with just the live and neutral wired in

 

When you say you have 230v sockets, do you mean the 'normal' 3-pin (square pins) in a triangular shape aka "13 amp socket". If so that would be very very unusual and against all wiring regs.

 

Before connecting up your 12v appliances it may be worth just checking that non of these '230v sockets' are indeed 230v, if they are you will release lots of magic smoke and many swear words. You can of course replace the magic smoke but it is not easy.

 

Electrical Theory Explained by Joseph Lucas

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Thanks for the reply Alan.

Yes, apart from one cigar-type socket at the stern, all the 12 volt sockets are the 13 amp, square-pin type. I agree, very unusual, but at least the 12 volt ones are labelled as such !!

I'm not taking that on trust though, and have tested the one I am replacing first with a multimeter (showed just over 13 volts, can't remember the exact amount), and will check each as I come to replace them.

Not sure why it was done like that as it does seem like a potential disaster waiting to happen. Nothing gets plugged in unless the socket has been tested first.

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Hmm - is the OP talking about using 3 pin 13A 240v  sockets to distribute  12 facilities ?

If so bad practice,

but on your own boat......

 

(Mebe of no interest, but I decided many years ago that 12V caravan type sockets were "not the best" so I used 3 pin mains sockets instead - in the hope that visitors  would have to stop and ask how/why to run 12v kit from said 3-pin kit. It also meant that I could wire my snall 12v kit into the 3-pin setup Has worked fine for xx years...

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5 minutes ago, jamie preston said:

you sure you have described that right, 230 v 13amp socket and the 12 volt systems will have separate wiring systems.

 

Yes that was a bit clumsy of me 😀 Sorry about that. I meant to say that all the sockets are of the 13 amp square pin type, but the ones on the 12 volt supply are labelled as such. As I said to Alan, I am not taking that as read, and will check each as i come to replace them

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8 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Hmm - is the OP talking about using 3 pin 13A 240v  sockets to distribute  12 facilities ?

If so bad practice,

but on your own boat......

 

(Mebe of no interest, but I decided many years ago that 12V caravan type sockets were "not the best" so I used 3 pin mains sockets instead - in the hope that visitors  would have to stop and ask how/why to run 12v kit from said 3-pin kit. It also meant that I could wire my snall 12v kit into the 3-pin setup Has worked fine for xx years...

Thanks OldGoat, no I'm not saying that at all, completely the opposite in fact. At the moment the 12 volt supply does seems to be going to 13A 230V sockets which are labelled as '12 volt' - I agree, bad practice - which is why I want to replace them with specifically 12 v sockets, after first testing that they do indeed have a 12 volt feed

Edited by RickS
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3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

If using mains sockets for 12V wire to the earth pin and the neural and then it is about as fail safe as it can be. I would go for the 5 amp version though.

But then the fuse which would be an advantage is inoperative.

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3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

If using mains sockets for 12V wire to the earth pin and the neural and then it is about as fail safe as it can be. I would go for the 5 amp version though.

Sorry Tony, I don't understand. Do you mean using the small round pin 5A sockets? Why to the earth and neutral but not the live? Thanks for the reply btw

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14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

If using mains sockets for 12V wire to the earth pin and the neural and then it is about as fail safe as it can be. I would go for the 5 amp version though.

Which is exactly what I did many years ago. When was the last time anyone saw an old style round pin socket on a 230v circuit. 

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10 minutes ago, Slim said:

Which is exactly what I did many years ago. When was the last time anyone saw an old style round pin socket on a 230v circuit. 

Come and look in my dining room and you will find the lamps plugged in controlled by a switch on the wall

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27 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

But then the fuse which would be an advantage is inoperative.

True, but there should be a suitable fuse at the start of the circuit to protect it.

28 minutes ago, RickS said:

Sorry Tony, I don't understand. Do you mean using the small round pin 5A sockets? Why to the earth and neutral but not the live? Thanks for the reply btw

 

Yes, small 5 amp plus and sockets that will actually safely carry more than that. If you use the live then when an idiot plugs a 12V device into a true mains socket the electrical parts will be at 230V. I am sue those 5A plugs and sockets are far more serviceable than the 12V cigarette lighter sockets.

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1 hour ago, RickS said:

Thanks for the reply Alan.

Yes, apart from one cigar-type socket at the stern, all the 12 volt sockets are the 13 amp, square-pin type. I agree, very unusual, but at least the 12 volt ones are labelled as such !!

I'm not taking that on trust though, and have tested the one I am replacing first with a multimeter (showed just over 13 volts, can't remember the exact amount), and will check each as I come to replace them.

Not sure why it was done like that as it does seem like a potential disaster waiting to happen. Nothing gets plugged in unless the socket has been tested first.

 

 

Whilst there are a hard core on here who will say "F**K the rules, who will know, who will care anyway, who will enforce it", there are wiring regulations for "Small Boats" both for AC and Dc wiring, here is what is says about plugs/sockets for DC wiring :

 

11 Receptacles/sockets

11.1 Receptacles/sockets and matching plugs used on d.c. systems shall not be interchangeable with those used on a.c. systems on the craft.

11.2 Receptacles/sockets installed in locations subject to rain, spray or splashing shall have a minimum protection of IP 55, in accordance with IEC 60529 when not in use, e.g. protected by a cover with an effective weatherproof seal.

11.3 Receptacles/sockets installed in areas subject to flooding or momentary submersion shall have a minimum protection of IP 67, in accordance with IEC 60529, including when in use with connecting plugs

 

Whilst "you" may not care, I'm sure your insurers would be grateful for giving them good reason not to pay out ...................

 

For the 'Alternating Current' (230v AC) requirements it says :

 

13 Receptacles/sockets

13.1 Receptacles/sockets and matching plugs used on a.c. systems shall not be interchangeable with those used in the d.c. system on the craft.

13.2 Receptacles/sockets installed in locations subject to rain, spray or splashing shall be able to be enclosed in IP 55 enclosures, in accordance with IEC 60529, as a minimum, when not in use. Receptacles mated with the appropriate plug shall also remain sealed, in accordance with IEC 60529.

13.3 Receptacles/sockets installed in areas subject to flooding or momentary submersion shall be in IP 56 enclosures, in accordance with IEC 60529, as a minimum, also meeting these requirements when in use with electrical plugs.

13.4 Receptacles/sockets shall be of the earthing type with a terminal provided for the protective conductor.

13.5 Receptacles/sockets provided for the galley area shall be located so that appliance cords may be plugged in without crossing above a galley stove or sink or across a traffic area.

13.6 Receptacles/sockets shall have a voltage rating in accordance with the voltage supplied by the power sources

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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You’ve just bought this boat, did you get it surveyed before purchase? 
  As Alan indicates, AC and DC sockets/plugs shouldn’t be interchangeable, your system implies the same sockets are used for AC & DC so the same plug can be inserted into either, surly this should of been picked up if surveyed??????

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11 hours ago, PD1964 said:

You’ve just bought this boat, did you get it surveyed before purchase? 
  As Alan indicates, AC and DC sockets/plugs shouldn’t be interchangeable, your system implies the same sockets are used for AC & DC so the same plug can be inserted into either, surly this should of been picked up if surveyed??????

Yes, it was surveyed, and it was a while ago now so can't off the top of my head remember whether it was picked up by the surveyor or not.

Yes, the same plug can be inserted into either so yes, it is a dog's dinner - which is why I am changing the 12 volt sockets to more appropriate ones to avoid such a problem.

 

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2 minutes ago, RickS said:

Yes, it was surveyed, and it was a while ago now so can't off the top of my head remember whether it was picked up by the surveyor or not.

Yes, the same plug can be inserted into either so yes, it is a dog's dinner - which is why I am changing the 12 volt sockets to more appropriate ones to avoid such a problem.

 

I don't blame you being careful, the label may have fallen off

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I'm slightly intrigued by

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

...shall not be interchangeable with those used on a.c. systems on the craft

(not intended as a dig at Alan, I appreciate he's simply quoting the published regs)

 

Which I'd interpret as nothing wrong with using 13A square pin on the boat for 12V provided you don't use the same connector for 230 V AC on the boat.

 

I wonder how many people over the years have carefully lifted their 12V TV, with its 12V 13A plug, off the boat and absent mindedly plugged it in at home...

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47 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I don't blame you being careful, the label may have fallen off

Good point

30 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

I'm slightly intrigued by

(not intended as a dig at Alan, I appreciate he's simply quoting the published regs)

 

Which I'd interpret as nothing wrong with using 13A square pin on the boat for 12V provided you don't use the same connector for 230 V AC on the boat.

 

I wonder how many people over the years have carefully lifted their 12V TV, with its 12V 13A plug, off the boat and absent mindedly plugged it in at home...

To be honest, although I don't want 13A sockets for both, I don't think a 12 volt device would have a 13A plug fitted in the first place. Could be wrong

I have no intention of using the 12 volt sockets until they have been changed, and even then, largely to USB sockets.

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32 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

I'm slightly intrigued by

(not intended as a dig at Alan, I appreciate he's simply quoting the published regs)

 

Which I'd interpret as nothing wrong with using 13A square pin on the boat for 12V provided you don't use the same connector for 230 V AC on the boat.

 

I wonder how many people over the years have carefully lifted their 12V TV, with its 12V 13A plug, off the boat and absent mindedly plugged it in at home...

I imagine not recommended by a competent electrician though if used next to the same type 240v sockets. In this case all sockets/plugs are the same 12v and 240v systems. So could be very easy to blow up a 12v TV without even removing it from the boat.

  

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56 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

I wonder how many people over the years have carefully lifted their 12V TV, with its 12V 13A plug, off the boat and absent mindedly plugged it in at home...

 

And that is exactly why, if using any mains type plug for 12/24V I advocate NOT wiring to the line terminal.

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I knew a boater who used all 13 amp sockets so that he could also use his extension leads for 12 or 240 outlets. All his 12 volt appliances were connected positive to neutral and negative to earth in case they got put in the wrong socket. He also had a valve an his water tank vent and a hose adaptor on his filler so at the moorings he could pressurise the system and not need a pump. Some people with active mined are always coming up with "good ideas".

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