Broker Experiences as a Newbie

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

Especially now, when I have found a boat builder that can do everything except the internals and furniture.

 

Isn't most of fitting out a 'sailaway' boat "internal" ?

 

He might not be the best person ...................

[MajorJones]

26 minutes ago, Halsey said:

So long as it is an established well known reputable boatbuilder and not a kitchen fitter with a mate who can weld - the biggest clue is how they want paying - are you going to get it surveyed?

I didn't plan to have it surveyed as it's a new build and it's a reputable boatbuilder - didn't know there is a need for it?

Payment plan seems pretty standard - you pay a small deposit to secure your slot, then the balance only when all work is finished and the boat is ready.

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Isn't most of fitting out a 'sailaway' boat "internal" ?

 

He might not be the best person ...................

We've discussed it in the another thread I think - I'm talking about Lymm Marina - they will do everything including plumbing, electric, heating, toilets, lining. By internal I meant walls, doors, furniture, galley - so kind of "wood related" things I'm comfortable with.

 

p.s. I'm sorry OP - I didn't mean to steal this thread!

Edited September 16, 2020 by MajorJones

[MajorJones]

13 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

As an ex estate agent, I know of what I speak! If I hadn’t worked for the buyer, why on earth would they buy through my services?

When I see the house I want to buy I have to deal with an estate agent that "represents" that house - there is no way around it. Same with the boat market, with the only exception that NB sale goes much quicker and it is a seller's market. 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

I didn't plan to have it surveyed as it's a new build and it's a reputable boatbuilder - didn't know there is a need for it?

That very much depends on who your builder is.

There are builders who DEFINITELY need a surveyor monitoring their build all the way thru manufacture so that the faults are not hidden away.

It is a bit like building a new house, the building inspector has to visit at about 6 or 7 stages of the build to ensure that each stage is made 'to drawings' and the next stage cannot start until he has "signed them off".

 

Then, there are 'trustworthy boat builders' who have an excellent reputation and you will not need a surveyor 'pre-purchase'.

[Rob-M]

20 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

As is often the case, the comment you were reacting to was rather biased. In an ideal world the broker/agent is working for both sides and those that aren’t will ultimately fail. As an ex estate agent, I know of what I speak! If I hadn’t worked for the buyer, why on earth would they buy through my services? Admittedly there are the less good in every field of business, and GHBS is rightly highlighted as being very annoying.

GHBS do seem to shift a lot of boats though and are now the brokers in quite a few marinas.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

When I see the house I want to buy I have to deal with an estate agent that "represents" that house - there is no way around it. Same with the boat market, with the only exception that NB sale goes much quicker and it is a seller's market. 

There is absolutely no comparison.

 

The Boat broker is representing the Seller and his sole responsibility is to maximise the sale price for the seller (and to earn maximum commission). He can do that by 'making life easy' for the buyer and helping them, or, in the present climate just by acting as an 'introduction service' and let the boat sell itself.

 

The broker in no way 'represents the boat'.

 

Give it 30 + years of boat buying and selling and you may start to understand the boat buying and selling process.

[MajorJones]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There is absolutely no comparison.

I don't understand why? Neither estate agents no brokers have legal obligations to not sell you a lemon, and they are interested in selling to a highest bidder as it increases their commission. When you are cash buyer what you see is what you buy - same with the house, same with the boat.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

I don't understand why? Neither estate agents no brokers have legal obligations to not sell you a lemon, and they are interested in selling to a highest bidder as it increases their commission. When you are cash buyer what you see is what you buy - same with the house, same with the boat.

 

As the number of 'Pre-Loved' boats you buy & sell increases, you will find that the reality is very different to your current perceptions.

[Stilllearning]

4 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

I don't understand why? Neither estate agents no brokers have legal obligations to not sell you a lemon, and they are interested in selling to a highest bidder as it increases their commission. When you are cash buyer what you see is what you buy - same with the house, same with the boat.

I had legal obligations not to sell a lemon to a buyer: hiding a fault from a buyer (vice caché) can result in costs and even legal proceedings. But the house buying system here is better set up than in the UK.

Boats sales however, in the UK, have attracted some chancers and using personal recommendations is a very wise route. This thread is a good idea for all newcomers to have as a helpful guide.

[MrsM]

I know the topic of surveyors has been covered many, many times but I think it is useful to place a caution in this particular thread as it is pertinent to those looking to buy their first boat.

Earlier in the summer we had a full pre-purchase survey on our first boat, with an in-water check of services etc while the boat was plugged into the mains at its home marina, followed by a lift-out and hull inspection. We used a qualified and well-regarded surveyor. We were not present when the in-water survey took place but had a verbal confirmation that all systems were functioning properly. During the 7 hour cruise to the lift-out marina we had the opportunity to check everything for ourselves. The pump-out loo was faulty and it proceeded to flood the bathroom, the fridge was damaged and the 18 month old leisure batteries were utterly fried. We also identified that the water tank had not been recoated for some time and needed urgent attention. When our surveyor came to do the hull survey we went through all our concerns. He gave us a great deal of time, was not in the slightest bit defensive and he agreed with our findings. These were duly noted in his report and we were able to discuss these issues with the vendor.

In a nutshell, to anyone at the early stage of buying, please please spend as much time as you can checking your boat yourself. Don't be afraid to question your surveyor if you are not sure about anything. If possible be present when both parts of the survey are being carried out. Caveat emptor applies even with a survey in your hand. Don't want to alarm or put off new buyers just want you to be aware.

Edited September 16, 2020 by MrsM
Edited to add we were lucky to spend a day cruising before purchase, without this we would have spent longer checking everything at the marina (including unplugging the shoreline)

[ditchcrawler]

11 hours ago, MajorJones said:

I'm doing my detailed breakdown to understand the full price of it (materials, etc) - but it does seem that sailaway IS the right thing. Especially now, when I have found a boat builder that can do everything except the internals and furniture.

RCD Recreational Craft Directive 

[ditchcrawler]

11 hours ago, MajorJones said:

When I see the house I want to buy I have to deal with an estate agent that "represents" that house - there is no way around it. Same with the boat market, with the only exception that NB sale goes much quicker and it is a seller's market. 

What is stopping you knocking on the door of the house with the for sale notice on it?

[LadyG]

9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What is stopping you knocking on the door of the house with the for sale notice on it?

You might get short shrift and asked to make an appontment like any normal person. The vendor has a contract with the estate agent, so commission has to be paid. Nothing to stop you knocking on hundreds of doros, but a waste of time.

Boats can bes sold via Appollo duck, I think they charge for their services. Paying a broker means a double whammy, welcome to the real world.

Edited September 16, 2020 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

RCD Recreational Craft Directive 

A lot of people don't seem to realise that a 'sailaway' is now (since 2017) subject to the full RCD requirements no Annex iii(a) can now be issued.

 

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sailaway boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sailaway from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

• A builders plate – makers details and technical information
• A CE mark
• A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.
• An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety
• A declaration of conformity (DoC)

A CE marked craft shows the craft is compliant when it was placed on the market for the first time. It remains valid unless a major alteration to the craft takes place which would require a re-assessment of the craft.

‘Major Craft Conversion’ would be applicable to the fit out of the majority of sailaway boats, and needs to be factored in when planning your fit out. Once you have completed the fit out of your sailway boat, the boat would require a Post Construction Assessment by a qualified surveyor / RCD Examiner and the documentation, builders plate and CE markings all need to be updated. Although a self assessment is possible, it is not recommended as the fitter would resume all responsibility as the manufacturer and it is also a lengthy and involved process. In the worse case scenario, it could mean you are held criminally responsible if the boat sank and there was loss of life. It is recommended that you appoint a professional to complete the post construction assessment, this would be at of cost of around £2000.

 

If a company is being paid to fit out the boat, is it still a self build or a commercial operation - It becomes a question of 'degree' who is doing the majority of the build ?

 

If the OP is buying a 'built sailaway', and then paying a company to do all the 'fitting out' (except 'walls' and carrying the furniture on board) then I'd suggest that it cannot be classified as a 'self-build'.

 

The OP becomes the 'project manager' but is not the 'builder' and the 'builder' is not building it for personal use.

 

The OP can used 'specialist' labour where needed but doing 'all the work' ................................. ?

[haggis]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

You might get short shrift and asked to make an appontment like any normal person. The vendor has a contract with the estate agent, so commission has to be paid. Nothing to stop you knocking on hundreds of doros, but a waste of time.

Not sure about that ! If I was selling a house and someone came to the door interested in seeing over the house, I would either welcome them in or make an appointment to view at  a later date (depending on how tidy the house was ? ).  If they then wanted to make an offer that would have to be done through the estate agent.  I certainly wouldn't give them short shrift!!! 

I am of course talking about Scotland and I don't know what the position is in England. 

 

haggis

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What is stopping you knocking on the door of the house with the for sale notice on it?

Absolutely nothing.

 

In fact when we were selling our house, the Estate agent gave us a handful of the 'printed details' to give to anyone who knocked on the door and wanted more info.

 

Lady G is possibly working under a misapprehension that the English system is the same as Scotland

[LadyG]

8 minutes ago, haggis said:

Not sure about that ! If I was selling a house and someone came to the door interested in seeing over the house, I would either welcome them in or make an appointment to view at  a later date (depending on how tidy the house was ? ).  If they then wanted to make an offer that would have to be done through the estate agent.  I certainly wouldn't give them short shrift!!! 

I am of course talking about Scotland and I don't know what the position is in England. 

 

haggis

The first day I had a board up a lady came and peered through my window, I was too stunned the get my shrift shortened !

I'm not sure about selling in England, I had a few brochures in the house,  but if the board attracted a purchaser, I would have thought any agent would expect commision.

Edited September 16, 2020 by LadyG

[ditchcrawler]

20 minutes ago, LadyG said:

You might get short shrift and asked to make an appontment like any normal person. The vendor has a contract with the estate agent, so commission has to be paid. Nothing to stop you knocking on hundreds of doros, but a waste of time.

Boats can bes sold via Appollo duck, I think they charge for their services. Paying a broker means a double whammy, welcome to the real world.

I have been in the real world several years

[LadyG]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

I have been in the real world several years

Suffolk, is that in the stockbroker belt  ....and ,the home of the Suffolk Punch, a strong ploughhorse for strong soils?

[ditchcrawler]

22 minutes ago, LadyG said:

You might get short shrift and asked to make an appontment like any normal person. The vendor has a contract with the estate agent, so commission has to be paid. Nothing to stop you knocking on hundreds of doros, but a waste of time.

Boats can bes sold via Appollo duck, I think they charge for their services. Paying a broker means a double whammy, welcome to the real world.

If someone had knocked on your door and asked to buy your flat would you have told them to go make an appointment

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

Suffolk, is that in the stockbroker belt  ....and ,the home of the Suffolk Punch, a strong ploughhorse for strong soils?

I have only just caught up, How long did it take you to sell your flat in the end?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

If someone had knocked on your door and asked to buy your flat would you have told them to go make an appointment

If I remember, not even the estate agents could get anyone to buy the flat.

Didn't LG end up using 7 different agents  as the 1st six didn't come up to expectations ?

[LadyG]

6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If someone had knocked on your door and asked to buy your flat would you have told them to go make an appointment

I have only just caught up, How long did it take you to sell your flat in the end?

Nigh on two years, turned out agent sent out a survey which mentioned flooding, so no one bothered to view. I only found this out when I tried to insure it!.

I had had a burst pipe, and refused to sign off the survey report which mentioned 'flooding', but the agent used it anyway.

The flat was at the top of a hill!

Edited September 16, 2020 by LadyG

[MajorJones]

11 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

RCD Recreational Craft Directive 

• boat to comply with RCD 2013/53/EU
• annex IV declaration of conformity & owner’s manual
• craft identification number issued
• builders plate and CE marked

11 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

What is stopping you knocking on the door of the house with the for sale notice on it?

Now, when PurpleBricks & Co. are eating the market - nothing.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, MajorJones said:

• boat to comply with RCD 2013/53/EU
• annex IV declaration of conformity & owner’s manual
• craft identification number issued
• builders plate and CE marked

 

 

That's good (and as required by Law), but how are you going to go about doing the fitout in accordance with the RCD, if you are going to use Lymm boat builders ?

Are they going to work under RCD regs (as a commercial operation, that is required), or are you going to do all the work and declare a 'self-build' ?

 

Edit to add :

 

Or do nothing and hope no one notices and you are not forced to sell it within 5 years ?

Edited September 17, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[MajorJones]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That's good (and as required by Law), but how are you going to go about doing the fitout in accordance with the RCD, if you are going to use Lymm boat builders ?

Are they going to work under RCD regs (as a commercial operation, that is required), or are you going to do all the work and declare a 'self-build' ?

 

Edit to add :

 

Or do nothing and hope no one notices and you are not forced to sell it within 5 years ?

My understanding is that as they do the majority of the work they are required to do everything in accordance with RCD hence they take care of the compliance side of things and as my side of things is minor it can't be declared a self-build. Am I completely missing something I have no idea of?

 

p.s. Definitely don't want to be in position where boat is not compliant and can't be sold if required.