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Broker Experiences as a Newbie


mrsmelly

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31 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

My understanding is that as they do the majority of the work they are required to do everything in accordance with RCD

Are you buying the 'sailaway' from Lymm and then they are doing the fitout with 'extra extras', or, are you sourcing it from elsewhere, having it shipped to Lymm, and they are the fitting out ?

 

If it 'bought elsewhere then it may be worth confirming with Lymm that they don't consider you to be the 'builder' for the fit out and they are just a subcontractor, if they do, then YOU are legally required to ensure RCD compliance,

If it is their hull/sailaway then would probably consider that they would do the RCD documentation to whatever stage they hand it over to you.

 

Not being difficult, just trying to make you aware of the pitfalls - just talk to each of your suppliers and see what they are prepared to do / intend to do 'paperwork wise'.

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44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you buying the 'sailaway' from Lymm and then they are doing the fitout with 'extra extras', or, are you sourcing it from elsewhere, having it shipped to Lymm, and they are the fitting out ?

 

If it 'bought elsewhere then it may be worth confirming with Lymm that they don't consider you to be the 'builder' for the fit out and they are just a subcontractor, if they do, then YOU are legally required to ensure RCD compliance,

If it is their hull/sailaway then would probably consider that they would do the RCD documentation to whatever stage they hand it over to you.

 

Not being difficult, just trying to make you aware of the pitfalls - just talk to each of your suppliers and see what they are prepared to do / intend to do 'paperwork wise'.

I'm buying sailaway with extra extras (electric, plumbing, heating, PO toilets, etc). Plan is for me to provide some of the materials (like specific radiators, some wood, etc) and equipment (like Hurricane instead of Webasto, specific batteries, solar panels, etc).

Hull is from Tylor Wilson, but Lymm will source it for me.

 

No, no, no! You are not being difficult - I really appreciate all your comments, a lot! I have no illusion I know a thing or two about boat building/buying/sourcing - that's why I'm here - to share, to ask and to discuss!
I'll specifically ask Lymm if they see themselves in my case as a boat builder or a subcontractor.

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5 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

I'll specifically ask Lymm if they see themselves in my case as a boat builder or a subcontractor.

 

Makes sense - they are a good bunch at Lymm and will be able to get you sorted out.

 

One thing to check - probably they will know - is if any of the later work you are intending to do will be classed as a "major craft conversion".  If it's only fitting bits of wood to make furniture, I'd think it's unlikely.  If it involves you finishing off gas / plumbing / wiring / lights etc it's getting a bit more grey.  If it's any changes to the engine / hull / propulsion (doubtful in your case) it definitely will be.

 

It doesn't stop you doing what you want to do, but you would require a Post Construction Assessment after the work is complete and before you put it into service (ie use it!)

 

The definition of Major Craft Conversion:

‘major craft conversion’ means a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this Directive.

[...]

What this now means is that any CE marked vessel that undergoes a Major Craft Conversion must undergo a post construction assessment before being placed back on the market or put into service (whichever is the earlier). The legal responsibility for this is placed on the person who is placing the vessel back on the market or putting it back into service after the works have been carried out.

 

(my bold: that's the bit that potentially applies to your project)

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On 15/09/2020 at 19:29, roland elsdon said:

We are trying to sell a very unusual but run down house at the moment.

The estate agents say its idiotsville out there. They are cancelling viewings for people who cant evidence 20% of the asking price because people are just sightseeing.

We had a 95% offer which we accepted 4 weeks ago. When it came to contract the idiots admitted that they didnt have the deposit, and that their guaranteed mortgage with a certain dodgy chinese bank, was based on one of them being a mortgage consultant for them.

The bank then turned down their own employee. Glad we dont bank with them.

I had that happen 40 years ago, strung me along for weeks

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1 hour ago, MajorJones said:

I'm buying sailaway with extra extras (electric, plumbing, heating, PO toilets, etc). Plan is for me to provide some of the materials (like specific radiators, some wood, etc) and equipment (like Hurricane instead of Webasto, specific batteries, solar panels, etc).

Hull is from Tylor Wilson, but Lymm will source it for me.

 

No, no, no! You are not being difficult - I really appreciate all your comments, a lot! I have no illusion I know a thing or two about boat building/buying/sourcing - that's why I'm here - to share, to ask and to discuss!
I'll specifically ask Lymm if they see themselves in my case as a boat builder or a subcontractor.

I would think that if Lymm are doing everything then there should be nor RCD problem, they will do the RCD paperwork, issuing HIN etc etc up to the stage of the handover. The fact you provide 'stuff'is neither here nor there. 

To be honest it sounds like they are pretty much building and finishing the complete boat with just a bit of 'tidying' to be done by yourself.

 

They are a good, long established company, we used to live just down the road from them.

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1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

The definition of Major Craft Conversion:

‘major craft conversion’ means a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this Directive.

[...]

What this now means is that any CE marked vessel that undergoes a Major Craft Conversion must undergo a post construction assessment before being placed back on the market or put into service (whichever is the earlier). The legal responsibility for this is placed on the person who is placing the vessel back on the market or putting it back into service after the works have been carried out.

 

(my bold: that's the bit that potentially applies to your project)

 

DIY fit-out can affect Stability (overloading one side, improper ballasting etc) which is one of the 'essential safety requirements' of the boat.

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21 minutes ago, WotEver said:

He’s right though. Unless the batteries have been recently replaced, budget to replace them. A surveyor won’t be able to check their capacity so anything he says about them is worthless. 

My old boat before sale I removed the full traction bank and fitted 3 x 110 Ah LAs, brand ne New and used promptly nicked them,! 2 of the employees had boats, Chris the owner rang me up to complain about the knackered batteries when the boat was sold I sent him a picture of the new batteries in place, he didn't seem surprised unfortunately 

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1 hour ago, WotEver said:

He’s right though. Unless the batteries have been recently replaced, budget to replace them. A surveyor won’t be able to check their capacity so anything he says about them is worthless. 

I agree with all but one thing. Although a surveyor can't say anything definitive about battery sulphation or even cell shorts if he knew his stuff he should be able to spot and report on indications of such faults (battery design allowing). Bowing case ends or lifting cell tops indicate a serious degree of sulphation while individual dry cells are fairly indicative of that cell gassing  excessively so may well have internal shorts.

 

having said that I bet few bother to look, mine certainly did not so its down to the potential owner if getting new may be an issue.

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On 14/09/2020 at 21:21, Halsey said:

I'll wager broker no 1 was GHBS

As I was reading the comment I immediately thought of them. I had similar dealings with them but fortunately I didn’t travel as I wasn’t convinced they had what they said.

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

... having said that I bet few bother to look, mine certainly did not so its down to the potential owner if getting new may be an issue.

However skilled or experienced your surveyor is please don't rely on them to pick up on everything - check your boat as carefully as you can before handing over your hard earned. 

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17 minutes ago, MrsM said:

However skilled or experienced your surveyor is please don't rely on them to pick up on everything - check your boat as carefully as you can before handing over your hard earned. 

A boat is chock full of systems, frequently everything that a house has but smaller, more inaccessible, of rare and unusual design and on my boat no professional has had a hand in putting it all together. It also runs on 12 volt with a bit of 240 here and there , the heating is unusual - paraffin - and the engine is nearer the front than the back. Crammed into most boats is an ex automotive or plant engine and coupled to the propeller by a frequently poorly installed gearbox and various couplings. All this is contained in a hull that is impossible to inspect on the inside and not easy to interpret on the outside. Also in this challenging structure is enough gas to destroy a medium sized house, enough amps to melt big chunks of metal and enough diesel to make a very hot thing even hotter. Pity the poor old surveyor who inspects this expensive assemblage and misses a corroded jubilee clip or missing split pin that sinks the whole lot.  As MrsM says, check as much as you can and it really is in our own interest to familiarise ourselves with our boats.  There, That'll put everybody off buying a boat and make a bit more space on the cut.

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Do you mean #5 (the speculative sale, not the director owned boat that sank)? That's just... weird.

That broker actually seemed one of the more professional outfits when I visited them.

 

 

Was going to suggest another Aqualine Madison on the basis when I visited I said "don't think I'll look at the Aqualine" and the broker said "noone else wants to look at it either" but that's now sold...

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I found the same about ABNB, but bought my  boat from GHBS, which went well despite my trepidation  from what I had read about them on here.

 

At the end of the day, it is better to buy the boat you really want from wherever it is on sale, rather than restrict yourself to the very few excellent brokers.

 

Only if you are really lucky will the boat you really want will be available from the broker you really want to use.

 

 

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On 19/09/2020 at 18:47, cuthound said:

 

I found the same about ABNB, but bought my  boat from GHBS, which went well despite my trepidation  from what I had read about them on here.

 

At the end of the day, it is better to buy the boat you really want from wherever it is on sale, rather than restrict yourself to the very few excellent brokers.

 

Only if you are really lucky will the boat you really want will be available from the broker you really want to use.

 

 

On the other hand, when you come to sell, you know who you will and will not use.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

This doesnt suprise me at all. Turning money down against someone who may or may not buy subject to survey sounds fair to me. I bought this boat within first seeing it after twenty minutes paid for and done. I have never had a survey on my 8 boats. Good boats have always sold very quickly.

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