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Swapping from red diesel to HVO fuel


Bosley Dave

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11 minutes ago, frangar said:

Thats about right...Be interesting to see if they continue to do red when its stopped for construction etc....I think farmers have an exemption like boats tho so you might be ok.

 

Farmers can use red for farming and, I think for snow clearance and roadside hedge trimming, but any sideline which is deemed 'contracting', such as trimming someone else's non roadside non farm hedge has to use white. So for most farmers that will stop much of their sideline work (unless they have separate plant or use white for everything).

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As  I have a separate 1000 litre tank for my boiler and generator  I was able to fill up with HVO back in September at 0.78 ppl.

The genny has been running sweetly for a minimum of 2 hours per day ever since and the boiler makes zero soot and no smell.

( I use DERV in the engine in case you are wondering )I didn't bother asking what the price of gasoil would be for comparison but

I suspect that it would have been quite close to the 0.69 ppl that I paid back in April. 

 

Keith

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46 minutes ago, frangar said:

Garage supplied into cans is one flat rate..the same as the domestic boat rate....no propulsion addition 

 

It's also technically illegal to use it in a boat, but if you're proud of declaring tax fraud on the public internet feel free ...

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Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

It's also technically illegal to use it in a boat, but if you're proud of declaring tax fraud on the public internet feel free ...

Not me using it from cans....but it would be legal for heating or generator or other non propulsion use......

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54 minutes ago, frangar said:

Garage supplied into cans is one flat rate..the same as the domestic boat rate....no propulsion addition 

That not what the rules say:

 

"As rebated diesel is a controlled oil, all suppliers must be a registered dealer in controlled oil. Not all registered dealers supply fuel for use by private pleasure craft, but if you do (or will), you must tell HMRC. Registered dealers who supply rebated diesel, biodiesel or bioblend to private pleasure craft must be registered with HMRC in order to charge and collect the duty, and to receive a payment return.

If you’re registering as a new dealer, you’ll be asked to declare on the registration form if you supply rebated fuels to private pleasure craft.

If you start supplying to private pleasure craft after you’ve registered, you must notify us in writing.

HMRC will send you a new registered dealer in controlled oil registration certificate, showing that you’re a supplier of fuel to private pleasure craft. You’ll also receive a payment return towards the end of the accounting period (see paragraph 5.1)."

 

See https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fuel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft-and-for-private-pleasure-flying-excise-notice-554 

Section 3 refers.

 

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6 minutes ago, David Mack said:

That not what the rules say:

 

"As rebated diesel is a controlled oil, all suppliers must be a registered dealer in controlled oil. Not all registered dealers supply fuel for use by private pleasure craft, but if you do (or will), you must tell HMRC. Registered dealers who supply rebated diesel, biodiesel or bioblend to private pleasure craft must be registered with HMRC in order to charge and collect the duty, and to receive a payment return.

If you’re registering as a new dealer, you’ll be asked to declare on the registration form if you supply rebated fuels to private pleasure craft.

If you start supplying to private pleasure craft after you’ve registered, you must notify us in writing.

HMRC will send you a new registered dealer in controlled oil registration certificate, showing that you’re a supplier of fuel to private pleasure craft. You’ll also receive a payment return towards the end of the accounting period (see paragraph 5.1)."

 

See https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fuel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft-and-for-private-pleasure-flying-excise-notice-554 

Section 3 refers.

 

But its not going into a boat as far as the retailer knows....it's going into a can....same as if it goes into a can at boatyard...so you vehicle reg will be taken but no propulsion "tax" will be added....same as if you buy it in cans from the garage by grindley brook etc...not quite sure what details they take if you walk up with a can.....

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4 hours ago, IanD said:

Interesting -- for the sake of argument, let's assume that HVO is (and stays) about 10% more expensive than diesel.

 

How many boaters would willingly pay this for the advantages of HVO?

 

(cleaner burning, less smell and smoke, much lower water absorption -- and of course, a lot greener than dino juice...)

 

Would love to know, might even set up a poll... 😉

Well I did just that Ian and haven't regretted it, for me it's the long shelf life, as you know its for my genny so my usage is very small. I have used it in my bubble stove as well with good results so for me the .79 pence a litre was well worth it. As a plus it smells better as well both raw and as fumes

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1 minute ago, frangar said:

But its not going into a boat as far as the retailer knows....it's going into a can....same as if it goes into a can at boatyard...so you vehicle reg will be taken but no propulsion "tax" will be added....same as if you buy it in cans from the garage by grindley brook etc...not quite sure what details they take if you walk up with a can.....

 

The garage you mention has a very clear sign saying they do not provide red diesel for marine use.

 

As do most garages near but not on waterways - it's simply not worth the additional paperwork for the retailer for boat sales.

 

Let me guess, you walked up to the garage near the locks for use in your commercial generator that isn't anywhere near the boat, right?

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6 minutes ago, frangar said:

But its not going into a boat as far as the retailer knows....it's going into a can....same as if it goes into a can at boatyard...so you vehicle reg will be taken but no propulsion "tax" will be added....same as if you buy it in cans from the garage by grindley brook etc...not quite sure what details they take if you walk up with a can.....

Read more of the link I posted

"Supplies to a pleasure craft in Great Britain

You’re not responsible for ascertaining if the fuel you sell to an individual is for the propulsion of a private pleasure craft. It’s the purchaser’s responsibility to confirm this and to make a declaration.

3.3 Why a declaration needs to be made

The law requires that a declaration is made by the person purchasing rebated fuel in Great Britain if it’s to be used for propelling a private pleasure craft. At the time of supply the purchaser must declare in writing the proportion of fuel that is to be used for propulsion."

 

As @TheBiscuits has pointed out above you have just admitted tax fraud on a public forum.

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Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

The garage you mention has a very clear sign saying they do not provide red diesel for marine use.

 

As do most garages near but not on waterways - it's simply not worth the additional paperwork for the retailer for boat sales.

 

Let me guess, you walked up to the garage near the locks for use in your commercial generator that isn't anywhere near the boat, right?

Are you not reading my posts.....I dont fill up from cans!! Its not worth the hassle for me...I either use fuel boats or somewhere like Turners....but I know others do use cans...and the garage is protecting their arse...as I said who knows where it ends up....i forsee the same will happen when construction and entertainment get stopped from using it...

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Read more of the link I posted

"Supplies to a pleasure craft in Great Britain

You’re not responsible for ascertaining if the fuel you sell to an individual is for the propulsion of a private pleasure craft. It’s the purchaser’s responsibility to confirm this and to make a declaration.

3.3 Why a declaration needs to be made

The law requires that a declaration is made by the person purchasing rebated fuel in Great Britain if it’s to be used for propelling a private pleasure craft. At the time of supply the purchaser must declare in writing the proportion of fuel that is to be used for propulsion."

 

As @TheBiscuits has pointed out above you have just admitted tax fraud on a public forum.

Jesus!!!! for the last time Im not the one filling up from cans!!! What others do is up to them!....

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2 minutes ago, frangar said:

the same will happen when construction and entertainment get stopped from using it.

 

Funny you pick entertainment - HMRC will be dipping genny tanks at festivals from next April when the ban takes effect - and seizing the plant there and then if it's red ...

 

I'd recommend anyone trying it on in the industry has a spare complete set of generators full of white diesel ready to connect up mid set!

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6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Funny you pick entertainment - HMRC will be dipping genny tanks at festivals from next April when the ban takes effect - and seizing the plant there and then if it's red ...

 

I'd recommend anyone trying it on in the industry has a spare complete set of generators full of white diesel ready to connect up mid set!

Yep....although getting the existing dye from the bulk tanks and sets is going to be grief.....then what happens when its hired to a farmer to power a pump?....remember most festivals hire the sets in (as I did for the festival my company supplied tech services to)....so it might not be the festival thats to blame....I forsee it being a whole load of fun and Im really glad Im no longer anything to do with festival work...

 

As an aside we used somewhere in the region of 30,000 litres at Cropredy.....thats going to mean a big increase in the fuel bill to run on white....which the punter is going to have to cover

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18 minutes ago, frangar said:

Hmmmm but I like the smell of Gas Oil....both in liquid form and the fumes....always have even as a kid.....it might explain a lot i guess

 

I think its changed in smell from yesteryear, it seems more acrid than I remember? especially if it's gone through a catalytic converter and DPF. HVO seems a much nicer smell when its burnt, its just me that's all 

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Just now, peterboat said:

I think its changed in smell from yesteryear, it seems more acrid than I remember? especially if it's gone through a catalytic converter and DPF. HVO seems a much nicer smell when its burnt, its just me that's all 

I agree about the cat and DPF....ruins the smell....thankfully my JP is free of such things so I I get the full effect!...lovely!...I think the smell of the modern stuff has been tainted by the veg oil etc in it!

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

 

Driving to the petrol station every week or two is tedious, its a long though quite attractive drive. Hopefully I will find somebody able to deliver HVO in reasonable quantities and at a half reasonable price sometime this winter. 😀

 

Its usually rural garages that sell red so am pretty sure that its farming rather than construction that is using it (or maybe they park up just round the corner and pour it straight into the vehicle, usually a pick up).

I wonder what will happen at Turners as he sells lots through the roadside pump to the "construction" industry in the back of their white vans

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9 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Following successful trials with HVO in domestic oil CH boilers over last winter . . .

That's interesting, too!  Most domestic CH oil boilers use kerosene (ours does), so does that mean that HVO can replace kerosene as well as diesel, across the board?  We have a Wallas hob and oven on our boat, designed to run on diesel but running much better on kerosene, and the Wallas dealers (Kuranda) say that they will run well on HVO.

Perhaps I need to get my next domestic oil fill to be HVO instead of kerosene?  I'll check with the manufacturers of our cooker/boiler.

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10 minutes ago, Dave Taylor said:

That's interesting, too!  Most domestic CH oil boilers use kerosene (ours does), so does that mean that HVO can replace kerosene as well as diesel, across the board?  We have a Wallas hob and oven on our boat, designed to run on diesel but running much better on kerosene, and the Wallas dealers (Kuranda) say that they will run well on HVO.

Perhaps I need to get my next domestic oil fill to be HVO instead of kerosene?  I'll check with the manufacturers of our cooker/boiler.

Kero is a 28 sec oil and diesel 34 sec. I've been meaning to ask Crown what HVO is but keep forgetting. It's slightly less viscose than diesel so my guess it sits somewhere in between. The talk is that converting a CH oil boiler to run on HVO is a £500 job but I need to look into this too. I would expect it to involve a new jet (10pish) and resetting the pump etc so struggle to see why the price is so high.

 

I've talked to Kuranda recently about running the Wallas hob on HVO and told them that we (IWA Sustainable Boat Group) have a trial running on one at the moment and they were keen for us to report back on its performance. So far no problems but perhaps they are jumping the gun a wee bit! I certainly don't anticipate any issues.

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Yes, Kuranda will be keen to say it's OK on HVO because they say that their hobs etc are OK on red diesel.  Our experience on board was that red diesel was an ongoing disaster, especially for the Wallas hob.  We didn't run the oven much, so that didn't get the chance to clog up with sooty bits.  All OK since we changed to kerosene, but it would be nice to be able to run the hob and oven on HVO – IF they will run just as cleanly!

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3 minutes ago, Dave Taylor said:

Yes, Kuranda will be keen to say it's OK on HVO because they say that their hobs etc are OK on red diesel.  Our experience on board was that red diesel was an ongoing disaster, especially for the Wallas hob.  We didn't run the oven much, so that didn't get the chance to clog up with sooty bits.  All OK since we changed to kerosene, but it would be nice to be able to run the hob and oven on HVO – IF they will run just as cleanly!

My bubble stove was great on kerosene and is just as good on HVO as you say much cleaner and reliable 

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Just now, peterboat said:

My bubble stove was great on kerosene and is just as good on HVO as you say much cleaner and reliable 

That's very useful to know. I ran my Dickinson on HVO for most of last winter and the burn was much cleaner with no need to clean the pot burner mid-winter as with gas oil.

 

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Does standard HVO have red dye added? Just curious for no particular reason. 

 

Also I'm wondering about using it in the pressure jet oil boiler I have in the cottage. In addition to a new nozzle and an adjustment to the oil pump pressure, ten minutes with a gas analyser adjusting the air will be necessary too. Still should not cost anything like £500. 

 

What probably does cost £500 is fully emptying the kerosene tank and all pipework of kerosene in advance of the HVO delivery, and a change of filters, plus disposal of the residual kerosene. Then a second visit once filled with HVO to swap nozzles and re-commission the boiler, so £500 all-in seems about right although YMMV.

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1 hour ago, frangar said:

Yep....although getting the existing dye from the bulk tanks and sets is going to be grief.....then what happens when its hired to a farmer to power a pump?....remember most festivals hire the sets in (as I did for the festival my company supplied tech services to)....so it might not be the festival thats to blame....I forsee it being a whole load of fun and Im really glad Im no longer anything to do with festival work...

Presumably your hire Ts and Cs are going to make it absolutely clear that the farmer or festival must only fill the kit with white, and if it is returned with any trace of red they are liable for full cleaning costs and loss of hire revenue while it is being cleaned, and if HMRC should seize it they are liable for the full replacement value.

But someone will still probably put red in it!

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