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Swapping from red diesel to HVO fuel


Bosley Dave

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1 minute ago, MtB said:

Does standard HVO have red dye added? Just curious for no particular reason. 

 

Also I'm wondering about using it in the pressure jet oil boiler I have in the cottage. In addition to a new nozzle and an adjustment to the oil pump pressure, ten minutes with a gas analyser adjusting the air will be necessary too. Still should not cost anything like £500. 

 

What probably does cost £500 is fully emptying the kerosene tank and all pipework of kerosene in advance of the HVO delivery, and a change of filters, plus disposal of the residual kerosene. Then a second visit once filled with HVO to swap nozzles and re-commission the boiler, so £500 all-in seems about right although YMMV.

It's available with red dye added or white as road fuel with the appropriate differences of duty.

My boiler has a Riello pressure jet burner which I had problems in setting up after fitting it as a replacement and I had to call in an engineer at £90 an hour. 2 hours later and £180 lighter and he couldn't figure out what was wrong. I fixed it myself in the end when I discovered it was getting far too much air. I was using red diesel then but since changing to HVO I haven't had to make any adjustments.

 

Keith

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4 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

It's available with red dye added or white as road fuel with the appropriate differences of duty.

My boiler has a Riello pressure jet burner which I had problems in setting up after fitting it as a replacement and I had to call in an engineer at £90 an hour. 2 hours later and £180 lighter and he couldn't figure out what was wrong. I fixed it myself in the end when I discovered it was getting far too much air. I was using red diesel then but since changing to HVO I haven't had to make any adjustments.

 

Keith

 

Shocking. 

 

1) If I can't fix a fault I don't charge. This is a major selling point but never happens. Gives the customer confidence to book me though.

 

2) If you must choose the cheapest guy in the book what do you expect?! 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Shocking. 

 

1) If I can't fix a fault I don't charge. This is a major selling point but never happens. Gives the customer confidence to book me though.

 

2) If you must choose the cheapest guy in the book what do you expect?! 

 

 

£90 an hour the cheapest!

 

Keith

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On 10/11/2021 at 20:33, David Mack said:

Which is fine if you have somewhere to store the drums. Not sure you can legally store fuel in an IBC. And to transfer the fuel to the boat you either need a waterside storage location, or you are limited to carrying it in containers of no more than 60 litres - in practice jerry cans may be more practical. So hardly convenient, and with higher risk of spillage compared with conventional refuelling.

 

Unless the law has changed since 2007, if any type of oil is stored outside, quantities of 200 litres and above must be stored in a bunded container in England and Wales. There are commercially available bunded drum stands to put 205 litre drums on.

 

In Scotland bunded containers apply to all oil stored in quantities of 200 litres and above, whether the container is inside or outside.

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8 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Unless the law has changed since 2007, if any type of oil is stored outside, quantities of 200 litres and above must be stored in a bunded container in England and Wales. There are commercially available bunded drum stands to put 205 litre drums on.

 

In Scotland bunded containers apply to all oil stored in quantities of 200 litres and above, whether the container is inside or outside.

And they don't work very well when full of rain water

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On 11/11/2021 at 20:26, frangar said:

I agree about the cat and DPF....ruins the smell....thankfully my JP is free of such things so I I get the full effect!...lovely!...I think the smell of the modern stuff has been tainted by the veg oil etc in it!

 

Nah, it's the smell of the now removed sulphur that you are missing. Gas oil from the 1980's and earlier had 5% sulphur in it 

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21 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And they don't work very well when full of rain water

 

Indeed, I once visited a BT radio station where someone had removed a brick from the bund wall so they didn't have to keep pumping the rainwater out.

 

I said it must be a very intelligent hole, to know to let rainwater out but not oil, but the humour was lost on the technician 

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On 11/11/2021 at 21:51, MtB said:

Does standard HVO have red dye added? Just curious for no particular reason. 

 

Also I'm wondering about using it in the pressure jet oil boiler I have in the cottage. In addition to a new nozzle and an adjustment to the oil pump pressure, ten minutes with a gas analyser adjusting the air will be necessary too. Still should not cost anything like £500. 

 

What probably does cost £500 is fully emptying the kerosene tank and all pipework of kerosene in advance of the HVO delivery, and a change of filters, plus disposal of the residual kerosene. Then a second visit once filled with HVO to swap nozzles and re-commission the boiler, so £500 all-in seems about right although YMMV.

Yes, as is stated in a subsequent post it comes in 'clear' form (indistinguishable from water) and with the red dye. At the pump it is currently £1.50/litre for white and £0.88 for red. Unfortunately we are now dealing with new stock just delivered in by tanker (ship) to Stanlow. The previous stock was going out at about £0.72/litre and there may still be some around. This is an unfortunate rise when the escalating price of mineral diesel had finally started to give HVO a price advantage.

 

In the course of trials over the winter, I've used it satisfactorily in my Dickinson pot burner and it has been used in a Mikuni, an Eberspächer and a Webasto as well as a MX50 which is the Mikuni replacement from the same importers who have conducted their own satisfactory trials. All show a significantly cleaner burn. Subsequently both Eberspächer and Webasto have given their own (somewhat grudging) OEM approval to the use of HVO in their appliances with the proviso that they must be new installations. Read into that what you will as I'm slightly at a loss!

 

As for using it in your PJ boiler in your cottage, you know the score and will obviously have the kit. I have no reason to believe it is not other than you have outlined (speaking as a retired installer of oil boilers). I wouldn't hesitate.

 

A lot of trials work was undertaken over last winter and OFTEC, as you would expect, have been involved. There is just the thorny RTFO/RTFC issue to be resolved which is where the IWA SBG are turning their campaigning attention. I know my local Fuel supplier – James Bilsland of Glasgow – conducted their trial so you could speak to them or OFTEC for chapter and verse.

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On 11/11/2021 at 19:55, frangar said:

But its not going into a boat as far as the retailer knows....it's going into a can....same as if it goes into a can at boatyard...so you vehicle reg will be taken but no propulsion "tax" will be added....same as if you buy it in cans from the garage by grindley brook etc...not quite sure what details they take if you walk up with a can.....

Occasionally the local plod/highways have a car parked in the pub car park opposite, I'm sure they are just having a brew :)

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Just now, tree monkey said:

Occasionally the local plod/highways have a car parked in the pub car park opposite, I'm sure they are just having a brew :)

I’m not sure they will be stressed about some Cherry in a can….besides if you go fast enough they are too busy eating donuts to notice. 

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Just now, frangar said:

I’m not sure they will be stressed about some Cherry in a can….besides if you go fast enough they are too busy eating donuts to notice. 

It maybe just local gossip but they have caught some idiots who bought in cans nipped round the corner and poured straight into the tank

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16 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I do wonder if next April cherry will become unavailable in garages? Its the obvious solution as it can't be used on building sites change is coming I suspect 

 

Where will people in the world of farming buy theirs in small quantities then?  

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  • 3 months later...

Just revisiting this…. I suspect the answer is no, but has anyone heard of any boatyards on the Thames starting to supply HVO (or even thinking about it)?

 

I just tried Caversham Boat services and Kris Cruisers who were both a ‘no’. I’ll pursue other options if not, but am hoping it won’t be too long before someone starts stocking it. 
 

Thanks! 

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The IWA Sustainable Boating group recently completed an 18 month trial using HVO in a wide range of engines (including classic Bolinders, Gardners and the like) together with diesel heating and cooking devices (Eberspächers through to Refleks). The conclusion is that HVO is actually superior to gas oil in several ways and with pretty much full OEM Approvals from the world's diesel engine (and stove) manufacturers there are no reasons why, at 90% carbon neutral, it shouldn't be the first step along the road to carbon neutral boating on the inland waterways.

 

That was the easy bit ........ as it would appear that Government thinks otherwise. Whilst HVO qualifies for a substantial subsidy if used for boat propulsion (it clearly costs a lot more to produce than gas oil) it does not attract this support for domestic use – i.e. heating, cooking, lighting, generating, etc.. So, at a typical 60:40 split, the boater is required to pay between £0.30 – £0.40 per litre  more. 

 

IWA, RYA, CBOA, DBA, Scottish Government  and the like are lobbying Westminster on the matter but as yet there is nothing positive to report.

 

In the meantime supplies are available direct to boaters from Green Bio Fuels Ltd/New Era Fuels and Crown Oil and their subsidiaries. In the London area, nb Barnet and Stonebridge Boatyard are selling HVO direct to boaters. Sadly, other boatyards/marinas who had started to stock the fuel have stopped doing so until this legislative fiasco is resolved.

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27 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

The IWA Sustainable Boating group recently completed an 18 month trial using HVO in a wide range of engines (including classic Bolinders, Gardners and the like) together with diesel heating and cooking devices (Eberspächers through to Refleks). The conclusion is that HVO is actually superior to gas oil in several ways and with pretty much full OEM Approvals from the world's diesel engine (and stove) manufacturers there are no reasons why, at 90% carbon neutral, it shouldn't be the first step along the road to carbon neutral boating on the inland waterways.

 

That was the easy bit ........ as it would appear that Government thinks otherwise. Whilst HVO qualifies for a substantial subsidy if used for boat propulsion (it clearly costs a lot more to produce than gas oil) it does not attract this support for domestic use – i.e. heating, cooking, lighting, generating, etc.. So, at a typical 60:40 split, the boater is required to pay between £0.30 – £0.40 per litre  more. 

 

IWA, RYA, CBOA, DBA, Scottish Government  and the like are lobbying Westminster on the matter but as yet there is nothing positive to report.

 

In the meantime supplies are available direct to boaters from Green Bio Fuels Ltd/New Era Fuels and Crown Oil and their subsidiaries. In the London area, nb Barnet and Stonebridge Boatyard are selling HVO direct to boaters. Sadly, other boatyards/marinas who had started to stock the fuel have stopped doing so until this legislative fiasco is resolved.

 

I was reading a report recently where the Governement has categorically stated that HVO will not be subject to any rebate and can only be sold "with full duty and tax"

 

I'll have to see if I can hunt it down again.

 

 

Edit to add :

 

I have now found this Government documents which suggests that boaters will be able to retain rebates on their heating (domestic) use of HVO but will be required to pay full duty on the propulsion proportion.

 

Check when rebated fuel can be used - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

The rebated fuels affected by these changes are:

  • rebated diesel
  • rebated Hydrotreated Vegetable Oil (HVO)
  • rebated biodiesel and bioblend
  • kerosene taxed at the rebated diesel rate
  • fuel substitutes

HVO is a liquid hydrocarbon which is classified for excise purposes as heavy oil and treated the same as diesel.

Fully rebated kerosene is unaffected by these changes and can be used for all heating uses.

 

 

 

You can use rebated fuel in all types of boat, except for private pleasure craft in Northern Ireland. This includes in their engines and in other machines and appliances permanently on the boat.

Since 1 October 2021, you cannot put rebated fuel into the fuel supply of the engine of a private pleasure craft in Northern Ireland.

If you buy rebated fuel for private pleasure craft in Great Britain, you will be required to pay the additional duty on the proportion of the fuel you will use to propel the craft.

Find more information about fuel used in private pleasure craft and the changes in Northern Ireland.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Thanks very much for the update - however hard I try to understand the duty on this I always seem to be a few steps behind! It’s further complicated for us because we are diesel-electric, so the split between generating and propulsion is rather in the eye of the beholder. 
 

We don’t mind spending over the odds at the moment to use a more carbon-neutral fuel. Although technically suppliers will do a bulk supply, they’re not keen because a) less than 1000l isn’t worth putting in a tanker unless they happen to making other deliveries nearby and b) they sound nervous of pumping onto a boat. 
 

I could take 200l barrels, but don’t want to be left with the empty barrels to get rid of. So I might just get a few 20l fuel boxes for now, and hope that other supplies become viable at some point. 

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