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Swapping from red diesel to HVO fuel


Bosley Dave

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Very interesting thread. I had no idea that there were advantages to HVO like resistance to diesel bug, better smell and less soot. I thought it was mainly about being green and possibly that HVO was a worse fuel in some ways (I'm sure I read on here someone complaining about not being able to find HVO-free diesel on the shroppie anymore... or was that some other acronyn)

 

A couple of questions.

 

What's the rationale for govmt to charge duty on a carbon neutral fuel, especially if they then go and subsidise it in a complicated way? Why not reduce or even remove the duty (for both domestic/farming and propulsion) on HVO so that we are incentovised to use it and so that the infrastructure developed?

 

If I wanted to use HVO, would it just be a case of starting to mix it in with my tank or red diesel or do I need to clean out the system somehow? I have a beta 38 and a ebursplutter hydronic if it makes a difference...

 

Lastly just for fun, did I read right that tankers are delivering HVO up the MSC?

 

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1 minute ago, jupiter1124 said:

... (I'm sure I read on here someone complaining about not being able to find HVO-free diesel on the shroppie anymore... or was that some other acronyn)

 

 

I expect that would have been FAME - which is biodiesel normally found in diesel,   and FAME is different to HVO.

 

 

HVO and diesel may be mixed but the benefits of HVO would be diminished or lost.

I guess it would take a few  refuellings to eliminate the diesel.  I understand you don't need to do anything   with regard to the fuel systems.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

From where does one get this HVO and what is its price? The internet is being very secretive!

Having spent the past two years testing and promoting the use of HVO on the inland waterways, under the auspices of the IWA Sustainable Boating Group, I can assure you that everything positive you've heard about the fuel (together with the details quoted above) is true. At 90% carbon neutral we have no hesitation in recommending it as an interim solution to fuelling the vast number of diesel engines found on the cut until such time as they expire or their owners find the not inconsiderable sums of money required to convert their craft to electric drive.

 

However, there is a 'but' and that relates to price, availability and the somewhat barmy way the government has elected to subsides HVO given that it currently costs approaching £1 more to produce than its mineral cousins. The whole supply/availability situation has been skued by the major user (the construction industry) going onto non-rebated (white) fuel; the Ukraine situation (meaning that the raw material – {waste} cooking oil – has suddenly become very expensive) and the discovery that Government subsidy mechanisms will only support HVO used for propulsion and not heating, lighting and cooking which of course many boaters use their fuel for in one way or another.

 

Two main fuel distributers supply HVO in the UK, namely Crown Oil (and their various distributors – Speedy Fuels in the Home Counties and Beesleys in the Midlands) and Green Biofuels Ltd (New Era are their main retail outlet) based at Dagenham. GBF Ltd do have agents in other parts of the country too but right now everyone is pretty cagey about supply as HMRC are permitting rebated fuel to be sold undyed so "red diesel/HVO" can in fact be "white" and compliance with duty requirements is down to the paper trail generated by the sale rather than HMRC physically dipping your tank.

 

On the Thames it is now true to say that all the commercial operators are running on HVO (except the MPU which uses GTL) and supplies are pretty evenly distributed between GBF Ltd and Crown Oil. 

 

For my part I have simply filled my tanks with HVO and am waiting to see what the supply/price/availability conundrum is looking like in the New Year when I hope the proverbial dust has settled. However, in line with the escalating gas oil prices I expect it to be expensive and wonder if I will be able to afford the extra cost which in the past has averaged about £0.10 dearer than gas oil.

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9 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Note that these are all Crown Oil companies.

 

Crown was supplying a couple of marinas until DfT instructed them to price their quotes on an arbitrary 60:40 split with the '60' carrying the subsidy and the '40' being full cost price: the exact reversal of the HMRC version!!! This pretty much killed sales stone dead on the inland waterways and totally undermined two years hard work on the part of IWA and Crown Oil who have gone way beyond the call of duty to promote HVO in what is effectively a very niche market.

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12 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

But how much is HVO at the pumps?

The last price I had was £1.82 (for rebated HVO) on 24/06/22 – while it was something like £2.18 for road use. At those prices you could use it for propulsion (in a commercial inland waterways boat and in a leisure boat respectively! Extrapolating from those prices, you would expect to pay about £2.62 for domestic use. Quite clearly a non-starter for all but the most dedicated environmentalist. 

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3 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

The last price I had was £1.82 (for rebated HVO) on 24/06/22 – while it was something like £2.18 for road use. At those prices you could use it for propulsion (in a commercial inland waterways boat and in a leisure boat respectively! Extrapolating from those prices, you would expect to pay about £2.62 for domestic use. Quite clearly a non-starter for all but the most dedicated environmentalist. 

What were diesel prices at the same date? Difficult to make a comparison without this since prices are changing so rapidly...

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6 minutes ago, IanD said:

What were diesel prices at the same date? Difficult to make a comparison without this since prices are changing so rapidly...

I bought red diesel at that time in late June.

Prices varied between £1.50 and £1.85 at the 60/40 split

And £1.18 at 100% domestic rate from the same source as £1.50 at 60/40.

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2 minutes ago, IanD said:

What were diesel prices at the same date? Difficult to make a comparison without this since prices are changing so rapidly...

Good point Ian. I'm afraid I'm away from base and the notes I made when I had my last catch up with Crown Oil.

 

Supply problems with straight vegetable oil (and therefore waste cooking oil) are a very real outcome of the Ukraine conflict so for once waste oil prices tracking crude oil prices are a genuine reality in the world of commodity pricing. In the past I treated it as something of a (bad) joke!

 

As I've said, I'm not expecting any sanity this side of the New Year when I'll be talking to Oilfast (GBF Ltd's agent in the Scottish Central Belt) who were very confused by the situation back in the spring, maintaining that rebated HVO would no longer be available. I took pretty much their last 1000 litres off them and made the decision to go to ground for the rest of the year!!

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

I bought red diesel at that time in late June.

Prices varied between £1.50 and £1.85 at the 60/40 split

And £1.18 at 100% domestic rate from the same source as £1.50 at 60/40.

I believe I heard a price of £0.97 (100%) in Yorkshire through another CBOA member a couple of days ago and your info makes think that's correct.

 

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1 hour ago, PeterF said:

Aqueduct marina have some HVO in, they set up a small skidded tank complete with pump, meter and hose. Selling at road duty though, no domestic rebate. About £2.20. Not sure what red diesel was selling for. At the same time.

 

https://aqueductmarina.co.uk/hvo-now-available-from-aqueduct-marina/

When was "the same time"? If it was within the last month, that's not much different to full duty RED on the cut.

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2 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Good point Ian. I'm afraid I'm away from base and the notes I made when I had my last catch up with Crown Oil.

 

Supply problems with straight vegetable oil (and therefore waste cooking oil) are a very real outcome of the Ukraine conflict so for once waste oil prices tracking crude oil prices are a genuine reality in the world of commodity pricing. In the past I treated it as something of a (bad) joke!

 

As I've said, I'm not expecting any sanity this side of the New Year when I'll be talking to Oilfast (GBF Ltd's agent in the Scottish Central Belt) who were very confused by the situation back in the spring, maintaining that rebated HVO would no longer be available. I took pretty much their last 1000 litres off them and made the decision to go to ground for the rest of the year!!

I believe I heard a price of £0.97 (100%) in Yorkshire through another CBOA member a couple of days ago and your info makes think that's correct.

 

I will see Paul next week and find out what he is paying, I am still using my HVO I bought last year at .79 pence a litre 

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8 hours ago, MartynG said:

I expect that would have been FAME - which is biodiesel normally found in diesel,   and FAME is different to HVO.

That was it yes! People were upset that Norbury (I fink) started adding FAME to their diesel which was previously FAME free. What's different between FAME and HVO then?

 

 

6 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

the raw material – {waste} cooking oil – has suddenly become very expensive

I am a bit thick, but isn't waste cooking oil is generated to a tiny fraction of what we use in diesel engines? I expect the only source that produces worthwhile quantities are cooked-food factories. Is waste cooking oil really a viable source of fuel, even if it were only for boaters?

 

 

6 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

government has elected to subsides HVO

I realise it's not simple to say but I'm curious, roughly how much of my boating is paid for by the British public if I go HVO?

 

Or is the "subsidy" like the red diesel subsidy, where the public isn't giving anything but actually just the taxman is taking less?

 

 

6 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

However, in line with the escalating gas oil prices I expect it to be expensive

If there weren't any subsidies, I would expect HVO to track the price of gas oil pretty much exactly given that it's a like for like swap; if one became much cheaper than the other most people would just switch. A 10% premium over gas oil seems fair for the purported benefits.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

price their quotes on an arbitrary 60:40 split

I find the 60/40 rule to be a rather silly one, I reckon this is a fair split only if you are cruising AND generating leccy and heating water at the same time. For most livaboards 10-20% propulsion seems more likely. If you cruise say 6 hours a week and run your engine 2 hours a day that's 70% pure domestic and when you are cruising roughly another 15% is domestic.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I am still using my HVO I bought last year at .79 pence a litre 

I do like the way you're doing it, diesel/electric boat with the diesel part being run off of HVO, that's the future I reckon. Would love to get a boat built with a electric motor and an efficient diesel generator that I could power from a big HVO tank. Diesel/electric has to be more efficient than running an engine mostly for generating power, but there's no way to live on board especially in winter from only solar or from chargine points. Unless batterie technology gets 10 times better. HVO/electric is the only viable way I can see to get off of fossils.

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8 minutes ago, jupiter1124 said:

That was it yes! People were upset that Norbury (I fink) started adding FAME to their diesel which was previously FAME free. What's different between FAME and HVO then?

 

 

I am a bit thick, but isn't waste cooking oil is generated to a tiny fraction of what we use in diesel engines? I expect the only source that produces worthwhile quantities are cooked-food factories. Is waste cooking oil really a viable source of fuel, even if it were only for boaters?

 

 

I realise it's not simple to say but I'm curious, roughly how much of my boating is paid for by the British public if I go HVO?

 

Or is the "subsidy" like the red diesel subsidy, where the public isn't giving anything but actually just the taxman is taking less?

 

 

If there weren't any subsidies, I would expect HVO to track the price of gas oil pretty much exactly given that it's a like for like swap; if one became much cheaper than the other most people would just switch. A 10% premium over gas oil seems fair for the purported benefits.

 

 

 

I find the 60/40 rule to be a rather silly one, I reckon this is a fair split only if you are cruising AND generating leccy and heating water at the same time. For most livaboards 10-20% propulsion seems more likely. If you cruise say 6 hours a week and run your engine 2 hours a day that's 70% pure domestic and when you are cruising roughly another 15% is domestic.

 

 

 

I do like the way you're doing it, diesel/electric boat with the diesel part being run off of HVO, that's the future I reckon. Would love to get a boat built with a electric motor and an efficient diesel generator that I could power from a big HVO tank. Diesel/electric has to be more efficient than running an engine mostly for generating power, but there's no way to live on board especially in winter from only solar or from chargine points. Unless batterie technology gets 10 times better. HVO/electric is the only viable way I can see to get off of fossils.

Today has been a rubbish day for solar but we needed to cruise to get some of the way home. I fired up the genny and had it on for 2 hours on a four hour cruise, it charged both the leisure and drive bank, the drive bank was slightly down on our start voltage when we stopped for the day.

I have to rejig my solar next month when I fit a new wheelhouse roof in fiber glass to fit 5 panels to it.

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18 minutes ago, jupiter1124 said:

 

[snip]

 

 

I do like the way you're doing it, diesel/electric boat with the diesel part being run off of HVO, that's the future I reckon. Would love to get a boat built with a electric motor and an efficient diesel generator that I could power from a big HVO tank. Diesel/electric has to be more efficient than running an engine mostly for generating power, but there's no way to live on board especially in winter from only solar or from chargine points. Unless batterie technology gets 10 times better. HVO/electric is the only viable way I can see to get off of fossils.

 

The problem isn't the batteries, all they do is store the energy, and they do that just fine (if expensively) today.

 

The problem is where the energy comes from in the first place, not just for propulsion and appliances but also heating. Solar energy helps a lot in the summer (especially on a wideboat like Peter's) but has no chance in the winter (or in summer if you cruise long days on a narrowboat), so until there are network-wide charging points HVO is the only realistic low carbon/emissions solution for boaters to provide heat and power.

 

A series hybrid uses considerably less fuel/HVO for propulsion and battery charging than a diesel engine, saving can be between 50% and 100% depending how much you travel and how much the sun shines. But in winter you still need to burn HVO both for propulsion/power (generator) and heat (diesel boiler or drip-feed stove).

 

And the fuel savings will take many years to pay back the extra cost of a hybrid installation even if fuel costs carry on increasing and battery/generator costs come down, so cost saving isn't a reason to go down this route...

Edited by IanD
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Briefly, touching on the '60/40 rule' (so-called) I seem to remember that when the need to declare your percentage was introduced, the option was open for boaters to declare WHATEVER percentage they calculated to be correct.  I went to some considerable pains to calculate my %ages and – to start with at least – most boatyards agreed.  Then there seemed to be a conspiracy to only allow 60/40 or 100% domestic and no-one would accept other %ages.  As we no longer live aboard, it is not such an issue for us as it was, but did the rules actually change, or were we railroaded by boatyards being awkward?

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7 minutes ago, IanD said:

The problem isn't the batteries, all they do is store the energy, and they do that just fine (if expensively) today.

Batteries are the problem for the viability of charging points. Both capacity and how quickly you can charge them.

 

And don't dismiss expense, that's is a huge part of whether batteries are viable. To have enough batteries, that charge fast enough, that you can get all of the energy you need for propulsion, domestic use, and cooking & heating(!), is totally out of reach today both in terms of expense and probably bulk, even on a boat.

 

6 minutes ago, Dave Taylor said:

Then there seemed to be a conspiracy to only allow 60/40 or 100% domestic and no-one would accept other %ages.

 

In my experience almost everywhere requires a declaration. I don't think I've ever been forced to pay 60/40.

Edited by jupiter1124
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1 minute ago, Dave Taylor said:

Briefly, touching on the '60/40 rule' (so-called) I seem to remember that when the need to declare your percentage was introduced, the option was open for boaters to declare WHATEVER percentage they calculated to be correct.  I went to some considerable pains to calculate my %ages and – to start with at least – most boatyards agreed.  Then there seemed to be a conspiracy to only allow 60/40 or 100% domestic and no-one would accept other %ages.  As we no longer live aboard, it is not such an issue for us as it was, but did the rules actually change, or were we railroaded by boatyards being awkward?

The 60:40 split is familiar from the point of view of duty and HMRC. Much 'further back up the line' DfT have adopted it as a way of pricing the fuel based on whether it is used for propulsion or domestic purposes. Propulsion use attracts two RTFCs (worth around £0.40 each) whilst domestic use attracts nothing. A purely arbitrary arrangement but one that if applied kills the use of a 90% carbon neutral fuel on the inland waterways.

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29 minutes ago, jupiter1124 said:

. What's different between FAME and HVO then?

 

Its the way its manufactured - two different processes .

FAME degrades over a relatively short time and promotes diesel bug. It is used a percentage added to mineral diesel.

HVO has a long shelf life and is claimed to have no diesel bug  issues . HVO is intended to be used instead of mineral diesel. 

Don't ask me for anything  more technical than that .

😀

 

 

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13 minutes ago, jupiter1124 said:

Batteries are the problem for the viability of charging points. Both capacity and how quickly you can charge them.

 

And don't dismiss expense, that's is a huge part of whether batteries are viable. To have enough batteries, that charge fast enough, that you can get all of the energy you need for propulsion, domestic use, and cooking & heating(!), is totally out of reach today both in terms of expense and probably bulk, even on a boat.

 

 

In my experience almost everywhere requires a declaration. I don't think I've ever been forced to pay 60/40.

Its easier to self convert a widebeam to electric than a narrowboat. However if like Ian you are building from scratch a narrowboat is very viable as an electric boat with genny and solar 

3 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

When I was boating with my diesel engine I used fame all the time both for heating, generating electricity and driving the boat fast turnover is key to using it. Everything on board worked well with it surprisingly 

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1 hour ago, Dave Taylor said:

Briefly, touching on the '60/40 rule' (so-called) I seem to remember that when the need to declare your percentage was introduced, the option was open for boaters to declare WHATEVER percentage they calculated to be correct.  I went to some considerable pains to calculate my %ages and – to start with at least – most boatyards agreed.  Then there seemed to be a conspiracy to only allow 60/40 or 100% domestic and no-one would accept other %ages.  As we no longer live aboard, it is not such an issue for us as it was, but did the rules actually change, or were we railroaded by boatyards being awkward?

I always pay my declared percentage and don't but from companies who try to impose it.

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Purchasers are still responsible for declaring the appropriate propulsion percentage.  However, vendors also have the choice of what to offer.  Those who, for instance, only offer 60:40 or 0%, can put one price on their pump and have the sale cost calculated.  Offering a variety of percentage declarations unavoidably involves a specific calculation for each sale.  Firstly, of how much money to charge and subsequently of how much duty to pay to HMRC.  There is a significant, largely unseen, administrative burden in doing this.

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