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New build or nearly new close-enough?


jetzi

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18 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But you should also consider the change in RCD legislation 4 years ago where 'sail-away annexe III(a) declaration' is no longer available.

Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft..

 

This is an extract that appears to highlight the RCD exception for sailaways as of 2017. It seems to contradict the above post.

 

New Regulations January 2017

As of 18th January 2017 canal boat builders will not be able to issue Annex lll(a) Declaration of Conformities for part-completed craft. A narrow boat sailaway must be sold CE marked with a full DofC. Canal boat shells sold to a professional boat builder for completion have to carry an Annex lll DofC. Further details of the changes can be found in the following section.

Exceptions

An eligible boat can only be exempt from the RCD requirements if its classed as a ‘home build’. This is a hull or sailaway that is completed by an individual who then keeps it for their private use for a minimum of 5 years (from when the boat is first used on the water). However, the narrowboat would still require a BSS certificate.

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10 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

It seems to contradict the above post.

 

No it doesn't, it confirms it - it is from the same source

 

11 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

A narrow boat sailaway must be sold CE marked with a full DofC

 

and I said :

 

Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft..

 

What do you think a "Full DofC" is ?

 

The sailaway hull that the DIY builder buys from the shell builder is now classed as a completed boat, it is then up to the DIY builder if he continues to comply with the RCD requirements, or not, if he doesn't then the boat cannot be sold for 5 years after completion / first use, and then he will have problems selling it via a broker because they (some) are requiring an RCD / RCR compliance.

 

A SHELL only can be sold to a COMMERCIAL builder under Annex III - level DofC [no longer Annexe III(a)] and they are required by law to complete the boat to the RCD / RCR as they are building for commercial gain not for personal use.

 

You need to read and understand how the various sections inter-relate to each other. Not just read one section in isolation.

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Alan if your so bothered about the RCD/RCR and why Narrowboat owners fail to understand the importance of it and the legal implications, please start a new Topic on it and you can “cut’n’paste” to your heart’s content with regulations and stuff. But all your doing here is taking the Post away from the subject. So start a Topic if you think people will be bothered and see what the general consensus is with the “muddy ditch” users👍

Edited by PD1964
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On 27/07/2021 at 20:56, jetzi said:

I'm vaguely thinking about getting a new narrowboat some time in the next year or two. I'd really like to commission a build as I have a good idea of my perfect boat at this point. But I'm also considering the fact that a new build is a long journey and probably not a financially smart one since it'll lose something like a quarter of what you paid for it as soon as you sail away.

 

So I'm also just keeping an eye on what's out there and noticed this. Thoughts on this boat?

At 73500 it seems like a lot of money but it's pretty high specced.

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/price-fallows-62-semi-trad-for-sale/671383

 

A Beta 50 engine would certainly provide a lot of power for rivers or even estuaries, but I do wonder if there is any sense in even considering a new boat with a diesel engine considering the imminent demise of red diesel and the inevitable banning of diesel engines entirely.

To get it back on track👍

Edited by PD1964
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39 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Alan if your so bothered about the RCD/RCR and why Narrowboat owners fail to understand the importance of it and the legal implications, please start a new Topic on it and you can “cut’n’paste” to your heart’s content with regulations and stuff. But all your doing here is taking the Post away from the subject. So start a Topic if you think people will be bothered and see what the general consensus is with the “muddy ditch” users👍

 

If you look back to see who rased the RCD question, you'll see it WASN'T me - I simply replied to a question and it could have been left at that - you were / are the one who has been dragging it out by questioning the statements I made (repeatedly) and then criticising when I answer your post with an extract (C&P) of the rules.

 

If you wish to discuss the fact that Narrowboaters don't need the RCD/RCR then I suggest you start a new thread rather than continuing to take the OP's off topic.

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19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No it doesn't, it confirms it - it is from the same source

 

 

and I said :

 

Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft..

 

What do you think a "Full DofC" is ?

 

The sailaway hull that the DIY builder buys from the shell builder is now classed as a completed boat, it is then up to the DIY builder if he continues to comply with the RCD requirements, or not, if he doesn't then the boat cannot be sold for 5 years after completion / first use, and then he will have problems selling it via a broker because they (some) are requiring an RCD / RCR compliance.

 

A SHELL only can be sold to a COMMERCIAL builder under Annex III - level DofC [no longer Annexe III(a)] and they are required by law to complete the boat to the RCD / RCR as they are building for commercial gain not for personal use.

 

You need to read and understand how the various sections inter-relate to each other. Not just read one section in isolation.

The change, as far as the buyer of a sailaway is concerned is unimportant, as the person who buys and completes the boat still can't sell it for 5 years, the same as before and still doesn't have to complete to RCD standards, same as before. 

 

I think we've established that even if there is a broker (maybe) out there who won't accept boats without RCDs onto his books, there are many who will. We also know for certain that traditional brokers charge a great deal and there services are unnecessary given the ease with which one can advertise and sell using internet only brokerages.

 

Given that the inland boat buying public don't seem to know or care much about RCDs and professional builders of completed narrowboats self-certify anyway and the system is not policed to any extent and insurance companies, who, if anyone should care it's them, don't, I would be very happy to self build again and once again forget about obtaining an RCD

 

Not having an RCD neither made my barge difficult to sell or reduced it's resale value. 

 

If there is a legal exemption, then an exempt boat is not illegal as implied, so why would a broker turn away business, when all he or she has to do is to state clearly that no RCD is present in the boats sales particulars?

 

 

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20 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But you should also consider the change in RCD legislation 4 years ago where 'sail-away annexe III(a) declaration' is no longer available.

Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft..

 

If you look back to see who rased the RCD question, you'll see it WASN'T me - I simply replied to aquestion and it could have been left at that ” to quote Alan de Enfield

 

Looking back it looks like you were the first to bring the RCD/RCR topic up in this Post as the question you replied to had nothing to do with the RCD or mentioned the RCD and  your reply was the first time the RCD was mentioned and the start of the RCD debate and your “cut’n’paste” of regulations.

Edited by PD1964
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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Surprisingly I saw a nearly new hire boat last week that doesn't comply with the RCD as it has two tiddly little coloured light for port and starboard on the side of the cabin, why they fitted light to a hire boat at all I don't know, but to fit none compliant ones.

 

20180315_120424.jpg

The local chandlery has lots of those in stock...and little else...

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13 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

 

If you look back to see who rased the RCD question, you'll see it WASN'T me - I simply replied to aquestion and it could have been left at that 

 

Looks like you did bring the RCD/RCR topic up as the question you replied to had nothing to do with the RCD or mentioned the RCD and this was the first time the RCD was mentioned and the start of the RCD debate and your “cut’n’paste” of regulations.

 

Try again - look at the author of post #9 (the fist post mentioniing the RCD).

My reply was post #12

 

 

I know its not easy to keep up, but maybe you are getting confused with the diesel question which THE OP raised in Post #1 ( but I do wonder if there is any sense in even considering a new boat with a diesel engine considering the imminent demise of red diesel and the inevitable banning of diesel engines entirely). to which I, and others, responded that there is 'no demise of red-diesel' since the Government announcements confirming boaters keep red diesel.

 

Did you mistakenly take that to be referring to the RCD ?

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23 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Actually it was your reply to “Bargebuilder” 

 

Actually, have a look at page 1 and see who first raised the subject of the RCD.

 

I'll leave it now, just accept what the laws says and the fact that it is your choice to comply or not.

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8 minutes ago, Markinaboat said:

I would say the OP boat would be better to develop and put your own mark on then these two, with an exterior paint scheme and internal paint/decorate to your choice, if I had to choose.

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14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I’ll leave it now, just accept what the laws says and the fact that it is your choice to comply or not.

I’ll do what the majority of Narrowboat owners do and not worry about it and keep cruising the “Dirty Ditches”

Edited by PD1964
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58 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I would say the OP boat would be better to develop and put your own mark on then these two, with an exterior paint scheme and internal paint/decorate to your choice, if I had to choose.

Neither of the two Huddies are to my taste, however it just goes to show how overpriced the OP boat is. A similar price to the Huddies but with a fraction of the fitout.

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54 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Neither of the two Huddies are to my taste, however it just goes to show how overpriced the OP boat is. A similar price to the Huddies but with a fraction of the fitout.

The Huds are 2007 & 2009, so a bit older, as you say more fit out material though, but also more congested. Do the modern younger buyers want all that wood and dated worktops or want the more modern Ikea look? being more minimalist/spacious and do they appreciate the woodwork or just look to paint over it? As the OP likes the painted look he can save time with not painting the interior of the original boat.
 As to the pricing, the market at the minute seams crazy with high price’s and new builds will only be going up with the price of steel and materials rising weekly and shortages in the supply chain.

Edited by PD1964
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7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The RCD is important to any boater who wishes to stay within the law, be they on the Lakes, the Canals, the Rivers or the Sea.

 

 

I bought a verrry nice narrowboat about four years ago with bugger all paperwork. It may or may not have an RCD, but if it has I've no evidence. 

 

Are you saying I've committed a criminal offence? 

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It can't be an offence to own a boat that has no RCD certificate, because most boats don't have them. Some because of their age and others because they were home built and therefore exempt.

 

Enjoy your boat without fear of a knock on the door.

 

A boat builder however may get into trouble for not self certifying their product where they are required to.

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The sailaway hull that the DIY builder buys from the shell builder is now classed as a completed boat, it is then up to the DIY builder if he continues to comply with the RCD requirements, or not, if he doesn't then the boat cannot be sold for 5 years after completion / first use, and then he will have problems selling it via a broker because they (some) are requiring an RCD / RCR compliance.

From what has been quoted, and you have not suggested that it has been misquoted, it seems to me that a DIY builder is not legally obliged to comply with RCD, and will not be a criminal, nor will the boat be "illegal for life", (or whatever term you want to use). The DIY builder is free to sell after 5 years without the RCD.

 

and the fact that some brokers require an RCD where one is neither available, nor required, is/will be due to the ignorance of the brokers, rather than the illegality of the boat.

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36 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I bought a verrry nice narrowboat about four years ago with bugger all paperwork. It may or may not have an RCD, but if it has I've no evidence. 

 

Are you saying I've committed a criminal offence? 

 

My reading of the forum pedant's cut and paste stuff appeared initially quite worrying for some. However, now that bargebuilder has clarified things a bit, it looks like the pedant was, as ever, a bit over the top.

 

You would do well to put him on ignore, and resist the temptation to peek :) 

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9 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

From what has been quoted, and you have not suggested that it has been misquoted, it seems to me that a DIY builder is not legally obliged to comply with RCD, and will not be a criminal, nor will the boat be "illegal for life", (or whatever term you want to use). The DIY builder is free to sell after 5 years without the RCD.

 

and the fact that some brokers require an RCD where one is neither available, nor required, is/will be due to the ignorance of the brokers, rather than the illegality of the boat.

It isn't impossible that a broker could refuse to list a boat that had no RCD certificate, but I've no first hand knowledge of it and nobody has offered a real life example on this thread.

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

It isn't impossible that a broker could refuse to list a boat that had no RCD certificate, but I've no first hand knowledge of it and nobody has offered a real life example on this thread.

 

 

 

 

Alan* stated that there have been lots of posts in this forum where people have named brokers who have refused to sell their boat without and RCD. I suggested that I hadn't seen any, and now you say the same.

 

* that's Alan de Enfield, for those who weren't sure who I meant :) 

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9 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

It isn't impossible that a broker could refuse to list a boat that had no RCD certificate, but I've no first hand knowledge of it and nobody has offered a real life example on this thread.

 

 

 

 

I read it but don't plan trying to search for it.

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

I read it but don't plan trying to search for it.

I confess that I haven't looked either, but I can see no reason why a broker wouldn't simply accept the offending boat onto his books and declare in his advert the situation concerning the boats RCD status. 

 

It's a rare broker that turns away potential business.

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