New build or nearly new close-enough?

[blackrose]

28 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It’s not his first boat.

 

Ok, in that case ignore large chunks of what I've said.

[Up-Side-Down]

15 hours ago, jetzi said:

I'm vaguely thinking about getting a new narrowboat some time in the next year or two. I'd really like to commission a build as I have a good idea of my perfect boat at this point. But I'm also considering the fact that a new build is a long journey and probably not a financially smart one since it'll lose something like a quarter of what you paid for it as soon as you sail away.

 

So I'm also just keeping an eye on what's out there and noticed this. Thoughts on this boat?

At 73500 it seems like a lot of money but it's pretty high specced.

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/price-fallows-62-semi-trad-for-sale/671383

 

A Beta 50 engine would certainly provide a lot of power for rivers or even estuaries, but I do wonder if there is any sense in even considering a new boat with a diesel engine considering the imminent demise of red diesel and the inevitable banning of diesel engines entirely.

HVO is your friend!

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

HVO is your friend!

 

Is HVO recognised and accepted by the Government as a zero-emission fuel, or just a 'low-emission' fuel ?

From 2050 propulsion must be by zero-emission fuels.

 

According to the energy companies (fuel suppliers) selling it, it is :

 

HVO is a low carbon, low emission, fossil-free and sustainable alternative to conventional fossil diesel. It is fully interchangeable with conventional diesel, and can be mixed at any percentage.

 

 

[Up-Side-Down]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Is HVO recognised and accepted by the Government as a zero-emission fuel, or just a 'low-emission' fuel ?

From 2050 propulsion must be by zero-emission fuels.

 

According to the energy companies (fuel suppliers) selling it, it is :

 

HVO is a low carbon, low emission, fossil-free and sustainable alternative to conventional fossil diesel. It is fully interchangeable with conventional diesel, and can be mixed at any percentage.

 

 

A low emissions fuel and a drop-in alternative to mineral diesel. No more than a stop gap for the time being but already 90% carbon neutral. If there is a reasonable supply of green hydrogen around by 2050 (produced by electrolysis from surplus off-peak, wind-generated electricity) then there is no reason why this should not rise to 100% carbon neutral.

[cuthound]

Nearly new every time. Eliminates the possibility of the boat builder going bust and taking your savings with him and has the added benefit that the inevitzble new boat teething troubles will have been sorted.

[MrsM]

Question from a non-technical person: would a larger engine (Beta 50) need more skin tank cooling area than a smaller one?

[ditchcrawler]

17 hours ago, PD1964 said:

  Let’s get back to the original Post and not worry about propulsion, if your worried about diesel then don’t buy. Anyone got thoughts on the boat and not about future diesel requirements?

For me it depends where they used the MDF and what grade

[cuthound]

42 minutes ago, MrsM said:

Question from a non-technical person: would a larger engine (Beta 50) need more skin tank cooling area than a smaller one?

 

Yes  there is a direct correlation between engine horsepower and skin tank surface area. See below.

 

https://betamarine.co.uk/keel-cooling-calculations/

[Alan de Enfield]

58 minutes ago, MrsM said:

Question from a non-technical person: would a larger engine (Beta 50) need more skin tank cooling area than a smaller one?

 

15 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Yes  there is a direct correlation between engine horsepower and skin tank surface area. See below.

 

https://betamarine.co.uk/keel-cooling-calculations/

 

 

But if it only takes 10 hp to propel the boat, it doesnt matter if that is coming from a 10hp engine or a 50hp engine you will still only need cooling as for a 10hp engine.

 

[cuthound]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

But if it only takes 10 hp to propel the boat, it doesnt matter if that is coming from a 10hp engine or a 50hp engine you will still only need cooling as for a 10hp engine.

 

 

That is true, but if you don't correctly size the skin tank the engine will overheat when taken onto a river and is pushing against a tide.

 

So in my opinion the skin tank should be sized for the engine fitted.

[PD1964]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

For me it depends where they used the MDF and what grade

Water resistant MDF has come on in the last few years with a lot of boat builders using it these days as cheaper then Ply and with the current trend it’s usually painted and sealed. Different from the Louis and Joshua boats when most of the side hatches are black and blown with water damage.

[jetzi]

  

 

8 hours ago, blackrose said:

Why do you assume that?

 

I'm not sure in that respect new narrowboats are akin to new cars from a showroom. Perhaps some are, but then are you buying to use it or buying to sell it on?

 

Because if it was the same price to build a new boat (to your exact specifications) as to buy a boat that was new but built to someone else's, why would anyone spend the same money to get a boat that was not to your specs?

No I'm not buying it to sell on. My reasons for buying a boat that wasn't my own build would be a) to save money (or get more boat for my budget) and b) to get it now instead of waiting for a build (though as I'm already on a boat, that's not really so much of a concern).

 

 

3 hours ago, cuthound said:

Nearly new every time. Eliminates the possibility of the boat builder going bust and taking your savings with him and has the added benefit that the inevitzble new boat teething troubles will have been sorted.

 

To me that seems like a poor reason to not get exactly the boat you want?

 

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Tony1 said:

If you do go down the route of having a new boat built, there are a few things I would consider.

Now admittedly I have very little experience with these things, but I will say that having moved onto my boat about 11 months ago, there are some things that I would plan and budget for doing with almost any boat that I bought in future.

The first would be to budget for extra solar panels- at least 1.2kw, and maybe 2kw if you can do it.  It'll give you all the electricty you need between maybe April and Oct, plus loads of hot water if you fit a solar dump.

Another thing would be lithium batteries- they are still expensive, but are now becoming more affordable. But for me, they are worth it, provided you protect and manage them properly- which admittedly is a learning curve. I used to be uneasy most nights about running out of power, and would run my engine for up to 3 hours a day in oct and nov, just to recharge the lead acid batteries.  

Along with the lithiums I would budget for an upgraded charging system- my alternator turned out to be overheating due to the greatly increased current absorbed by lithiums, compared to lead acids.

Most boats will have a coal stove, but mine didn't, and I had to pay for an install last November.

But it was amazing the difference it made to the dryness and warmth in the boat- a real game changer.  If I was having a boat built from scratch, as you might consider doing, I would have a diesel stove instead of coal.

 

Regarding the electrics, I would probably move the electrics I have on my current boat to my new one (1.5kW of solar + 640Ah of LiFePO4s) so electrics are the one thing I'm not really looking for in a new boat. Unless the buyer of my current boat would be willing to pay a fair price to keep my system but I'd expect most people don't realise the benefits and would prefer to downgrade to LAs. So I'd advertise it and price it as a boat with LAs, explain the situation to the buyer and swap them out either with my new boat's batteries or some new LAs.

 

What I really do want in my next boat is a powerful engine or even better a diesel genny and electric drive, because my Beta 38 & 75A alternator just isn't sufficient in winter for my lifestyle. So the Beta 50 appealed to me for that reason.

I've lived aboard for near on 3 years now and I have a pretty good idea of what I would do differently! One of the main ones is a full width (or wider) bed, not a cross bed, which implies taking the bow for that purpose (as in the ad). What this boat doesn't have that I'd like: side hatches and no bow doors. An extra large cruiser stern (perhaps even a wheelhouse). An oversize water tank (1000 litres). A cooking range. A light colour to minimise heat in summer. And I still want to keep my cassette toilet! In the ad that composting toilet has been horribly installed. What were they thinking with that pipe running up the wall? And if you look behind it in the picture it looks like the tile-board has been cut poorly leaving a gap.

 

 

 

One other weird thing I noticed. The ad says the Belfast sink has a whale gulper 220. Why would you put a pump on the outlet of your kitchen sink? Is that normal? Mine just flows straight out a skin fitting. I did change the S trap for an plain elbow to make it flow better.

Edited July 28, 2021 by jetzi

[Hudds Lad]

12 minutes ago, jetzi said:

One other weird thing I noticed. The ad says the Belfast sink has a whale gulper 220. Why would you put a pump on the outlet of your kitchen sink? Is that normal? Mine just flows straight out a skin fitting. I did change the S trap for an plain elbow to make it flow better.

 Possibly due to Belfast sinks being so deep and water not flowing uphill too well, the drain may be so low as to require a pump to get it up to a more reasonable height skin fitting?

Personally think Belfast sinks have no business on a boat, and certainly not married with wooden worktops where water can get between the two.

 

I'd look carefully at the fire install too, from the pic its not clear if any provision has been made to protect the cabinet end or wall behind from heat 😬

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, jetzi said:

.......... side hatches and no bow doors.

 

You need to ensure that you can get egress from the boat when in a narrow lock without using the rear door - any fire is most likely going to be on the back end due to the engine / batteries / fuel / gas location.

 

Is it still a BSS requirement to have two USABLE means of egress ?

Edited July 28, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[jetzi]

4 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

Possibly due to Belfast sinks being so deep and water not flowing uphill too well, the drain may be so low as to require a pump to get it up to a more reasonable height skin fitting?

Personally think Belfast sinks have no business on a boat, and certainly not married with wooden worktops where water can get between the two.

My current boat has a Belfast sink and no need for a pump. The top of the sink is higher than the gunwale though (fine for me as I'm tall). I agree with the gap between the wooden worktop, its definitely suboptimal. Though this is always an issue with all sinks isn't it? Speaking of sinks this boat (like my current boat) has a "fancy looking" square bathroom sink. I find that there is always some list or trim in some direction that causes water and grime to pool in one corner. Not a deal breaker but my own build would certainly have a bowl shaped sink.

 

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You need to ensure that you can get egress from the boat when in a narrow lock without using the rear door - the fire is most likely going to be on the back end due to the engine / batteries / fuel gas location.

 

Is it still a BSS requirement to have two USABLE means of egress ?

 

I'd also like a bow window big enough to act as an emergency exit. I have seen dozens of boats without even this so unless there are a lot of BSS failures floating around I don't think its a requirement.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, jetzi said:

unless there are a lot of BSS failures floating around

 

 

O' but there are.(Had they had been properly examined)

[jetzi]

44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

O' but there are.(Had they had been properly examined)

Well, fair point. In any case, I'd like the bulkhead at the front to be a large, opening window, for both ventilation and an emergency exit. Regardless of what BSS says I do think it's important for safety to have multiple ways to exit the boat, and especially at the extreme ends.

[Rob-M]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

O' but there are.(Had they had been properly examined)

I wonder how canaltime boats get away with it as they don't appear to have a front exit other than the side doors.

[nicknorman]

I can’t see why a secondary exit should be anything to do with the BSS, that is supposed to be about risk to third parties (even though yes, it has suffered from a lot of mission creep).

[nicknorman]

I checked. The BSS does have a section about there being 2 means of escape, but it is advisory only.

 

And anyway, the advisory “requirement” is met by eg a breakable window of >0.18 sq metres incorporating a circular space of 380mm diameter. Obviously written before McDonalds was invented.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by nicknorman

[MtB]

14 hours ago, jetzi said:

And I still want to keep my cassette toilet! In the ad that composting toilet has been horribly installed. What were they thinking with that pipe running up the wall?

 

That pipe is the outlet for the fan that has to run 24/7/365 to stop your bathroom smelling like a farmyard due to the desiccating toilet.

 

The thing that was concerning me most about this boat was the sheer lack of storage space for all the buckets of poo that you would need to be keeping standing around for 6 months while they turned into compost. So I'm very pleased to hear you'd keep the cassette! 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, MtB said:

for all the buckets of poo that you would need to be keeping standing around for 6 months while they turned into compost

 

Apparently from those that know, it will require frequent 'turning over' & take 2 to 3 years to become fully composted.

[ditchcrawler]

15 hours ago, PD1964 said:

Water resistant MDF has come on in the last few years with a lot of boat builders using it these days as cheaper then Ply and with the current trend it’s usually painted and sealed. Different from the Louis and Joshua boats when most of the side hatches are black and blown with water damage.

I am more than happy with the right MDF depending where its used. Its a bugger if you need to fix anything to it

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Apparently from those that know, it will require frequent 'turning over' & take 2 to 3 years to become fully composted.

 

There were some on here last time I was around, who held that it took 2 to 3 weeks....

 

Then just bung it in a CRT bin with all the domestic rubbish and all would be well.

 

I heard a rumour the other day CRT had taken action of some sort to stop this. Is this the case? 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

I heard a rumour the other day CRT had taken action of some sort to stop this. Is this the case? 

 

Just for your edification - a 41 page thread on the subject - quite heated at times and as a result at least one composter has left the forum.