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C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.


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Just now, tree monkey said:

If you're on FB there is a very sensible and informative group called

 

Compost toilets for boats and off grid living 

 

It's the sort of group that makes FB worthwhile 

Are they all discussing Damien's email?

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5 minutes ago, WillCful said:

I feel like the composting toilet is the progressive stance... it was mentioned earlier that this is a similar situation to when freshwater toilets were banned. I feel the progressive thing to do would be to move away from cassette/elsan disposal with the eventual aim of every boater having a composting toilet and CRT providing disposal facilities to match. 

What do land lubbers do when they fit a composting toilet in their house? I guess anyone making this choice has the space to complete composting. Like boaters not every one has this space, in fact I’d venture the majority do not. So what’s the solution, continue to use water toilets? This is not sustainable, ideally (like the shift to electric vehicles, inc. boats) there would be an incentive to shift towards composting toilets for everyone. I’m imagining big composting centres where the stuff form composting toilets can be taken to do its thing and this would just be a run if the mill municipal service that CRT could be a part of. 
 

 

...and could possibly profit from, as DtEx.. said a while back, the compost can be sold.  Not just "unicorn' wishes but some time in the future a real possibility.   It starts somewhere and it only needs entrepreneurs. 

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It seems simple, really.

If the situation is that Biffa (or any other waste company) simply won't empty the bins if they contain this waste in any quantity, then that's the end of the argument about putting the bags in them. That bit is nowt to do with any CRT decision.

If there is an alternative solution, it would have to provided nationally by CRT or by marinas, and it won't be, because it isn't financially viable due to the labour intensive nature of it. Any change may be unfair, but fairness is not a particularly big part of life.

Biffa are bad enough at collecting skips already, don't want to make them any worse. I can see whoever makes PortaPottis getting flushed with success, if you'll pardon the phrase.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think you may be forgetting that the Waste regulations apply to Commercial operations and do not apply to Domestic situations.

Little Bob producing 8kg of dirty nappies per bin emptying cycle is irrellevant.

I think the nappy thing is very rellevant.

Maybe we are arguing at cross purpose here so lets just try and understand what is being said.

I am thinking you are saying that Biffa dont like peeps putting more than one 7kg package of Offensive waste (ie nappies or solids from a dry toilet in a dumpster) hence the CRT are becoming anti dumping dry waste. My reading of the waste transport regulations are that an individual cannot put more than one 7Kg package of this waste in a black bag per collection cycle. It seems to me that is likely what a family may dispose of weekly via nappies. The 7Kg relates to domestic waste.

Now, going to Dumpsters, what are the rules? What are you allowed to do on your campsite? It will be very similar to all marina's and CRT bins. I would think that multiple peeps must be allowed more than one 7Kg package. What happens when you get 4 families with babies. You will have easily 28Kg of packages in your dumpster. Do Biffa reject that? Do you document every bag of nappies that go into the dumpster? This will then be the same on the canals. 4 boats pull up at a service point and all dump a weeks worth of nappies into the dumpster. The rules about dumping human waste will be based on nappies so is very relevant.

Please explain how you deal with nappies on your site.

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7 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It seems simple, really.

If the situation is that Biffa (or any other waste company) simply won't empty the bins if they contain this waste in any quantity, then that's the end of the argument about putting the bags in them. That bit is nowt to do with any CRT decision.

If there is an alternative solution, it would have to provided nationally by CRT or by marinas, and it won't be, because it isn't financially viable due to the labour intensive nature of it. Any change may be unfair, but fairness is not a particularly big part of life.

Biffa are bad enough at collecting skips already, don't want to make them any worse. I can see whoever makes PortaPottis getting flushed with success, if you'll pardon the phrase.

 

 

Alternatively,  Biffa aren't bothered, CRT aren't bothered and Damien was trying to fill some words on a friday afternoon and assumed that you weren't supposed to put those bags in there without checking with anyone.

 

Have CRT released any kind of formal statement?

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24 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I think the nappy thing is very rellevant.

Maybe we are arguing at cross purpose here so lets just try and understand what is being said.

I am thinking you are saying that Biffa dont like peeps putting more than one 7kg package of Offensive waste (ie nappies or solids from a dry toilet in a dumpster) hence the CRT are becoming anti dumping dry waste. My reading of the waste transport regulations are that an individual cannot put more than one 7Kg package of this waste in a black bag per collection cycle. It seems to me that is likely what a family may dispose of weekly via nappies. The 7Kg relates to domestic waste.

Now, going to Dumpsters, what are the rules? What are you allowed to do on your campsite? It will be very similar to all marina's and CRT bins. I would think that multiple peeps must be allowed more than one 7Kg package. What happens when you get 4 families with babies. You will have easily 28Kg of packages in your dumpster. Do Biffa reject that? Do you document every bag of nappies that go into the dumpster? This will then be the same on the canals. 4 boats pull up at a service point and all dump a weeks worth of nappies into the dumpster. The rules about dumping human waste will be based on nappies so is very relevant.

Please explain how you deal with nappies on your site.

Don't forget that nappies and (mostly?) dried-out excrement from a composting toilet are very different in terms of the amount of faecal matter. A nappy is mostly padding and absorbent material soaked with urine and with a relatively small poo content -- yes I've had children and cleaned them up, I know what I'm talking about. For every kilogram of used nappies there's probably at most 100g of wet poo, equivalent to about 25g of dried poo (25% typical solids content). A kilogram of dried toilet residue started off as maybe 2kg of wet poo + 2kg of sawdust, which is 20x more poo per kg than a nappy -- and it's this that causes all the problems with disposal, waste classification and so on.

 

So on that basis a 7kg bag of dried toilet waste contains the same amount of faecal matter as 140kg of nappies [N.B all numbers are educated guesses based on experience, not much info about this...]

 

This is why it's a problem; nappies are just another red herring to distract attention from the real problem here...

Edited by IanD
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30 minutes ago, WillCful said:

I feel like the composting toilet is the progressive stance... it was mentioned earlier that this is a similar situation to when freshwater toilets were banned. I feel the progressive thing to do would be to move away from cassette/elsan disposal with the eventual aim of every boater having a composting toilet and CRT providing disposal facilities to match. 

What do land lubbers do when they fit a composting toilet in their house? I guess anyone making this choice has the space to complete composting. Like boaters not every one has this space, in fact I’d venture the majority do not. So what’s the solution, continue to use water toilets? This is not sustainable, ideally (like the shift to electric vehicles, inc. boats) there would be an incentive to shift towards composting toilets for everyone. I’m imagining big composting centres where the stuff form composting toilets can be taken to do its thing and this would just be a run if the mill municipal service that CRT could be a part of. 
 

I wonder what the cost (assuming we could magically switch overnight with no cost) of running a composting service would be to running and maintaining a sewage system, taking into account any environmental benefit. 
 

Obviously this is wishful thinking and it doesn’t help with the current situation... just thinking out loud.

 

I also can’t help but think that on the whole people are pretty squeamish about their excrement, I bet this has something to do with the low uptake of composting systems, on land that is. 
 

Also it’s always been the case that demand has to increase before any kind of sensible system gets put in place to match it (electric cars being a good example). God forbid anyone should be told what to do, even if it’s for the best. Bloody know it all elites... 

I admire the vision but I don't see how water less toilets are a viable alternative in the cities, they may be an alternative where normal sewage facilities are not available in rural areas but the idea of millions of city based families composting their own waste or delivering safety to some central composting point, it doesn't wash.

Mains sewers were created to deal with a major public health issue, I doubt it is any more practical now 

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5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I think the nappy thing is very rellevant.

Maybe we are arguing at cross purpose here so lets just try and understand what is being said.

I am thinking you are saying that Biffa dont like peeps putting more than one 7kg package of Offensive waste (ie nappies or solids from a dry toilet in a dumpster) hence the CRT are becoming anti dumping dry waste. My reading of the waste transport regulations are that an individual cannot put more than one 7Kg package of this waste in a black bag per collection cycle. It seems to me that is likely what a family may dispose of weekly via nappies. The 7Kg relates to domestic waste.

Now, going to Dumpsters, what are the rules? What are you allowed to do on your campsite? It will be very similar to all marina's and CRT bins. I would think that multiple peeps must be allowed more than one 7Kg package. What happens when you get 4 families with babies. You will have easily 28Kg of packages in your dumpster. Do Biffa reject that? Do you document every bag of nappies that go into the dumpster? This will then be the same on the canals. 4 boats pull up at a service point and all dump a weeks worth of nappies into the dumpster. The rules about dumping human waste will be based on nappies so is very relevant.

Please explain how you deal with nappies on your site.

 

Again, I think you are trying to apply cpmmercial rules to domestic bins.

 

The 7Kg limit (which must be in a Tiger bag and not a Black bag) is part of the Waste Transfer regs which ONLY apply to commercial properties. The only Duty Of care Rules that Domestic properties have to comply with is to ensure that whoever empties their bin is registered as a 'Waste Carrier'.

 

I have searched on various council's 'waste removal' websites and non of then limit the amount of nappies that can go in a domestic 'General Waste' (usually Black) bin.

 

A repeat of an earlier post :

 

 

5. Occupiers of domestic property:

waste duty of care requirements As an occupier of a domestic property, you have a duty to take all reasonable measures available to you to ensure you only transfer household waste produced on your property to an authorised person. (ie a registered waste carrier, not a man with a van)

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2 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

I admire the vision but I don't see how water less toilets are a viable alternative in the cities, they may be an alternative where normal sewage facilities are not available in rural areas but the idea of millions of city based families composting their own waste or delivering safety to some central composting point, it doesn't wash.

Mains sewers were created to deal with a major public health issue, I doubt it is any more practical now 

I think the idea was more for the canal users initially, but more councils will eventually look at sewer-less buildings, some countries  already are. 

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32 minutes ago, Chagall said:

...and could possibly profit from, as DtEx.. said a while back, the compost can be sold.  Not just "unicorn' wishes but some time in the future a real possibility.   It starts somewhere and it only needs entrepreneurs. 

And numbers that add up to making money, which is what entrepreneurs demand. If the numbers don't work, they won't touch it with a sh*tty stick -- or even a unicorn horn 😉

 

As Arthur said (and I did earlier), probably the only workable solution would be if CaRT compost-enabled the whole network and most boats switched to composting toilets to spread the cost out. Like electric charging points this would be a great green solution for the long-term, but it needs a properly worked-out strategy on how to roll this out and how to pay for it.

Edited by IanD
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46 minutes ago, WillCful said:

I feel like the composting toilet is the progressive stance... it was mentioned earlier that this is a similar situation to when freshwater toilets were banned. I feel the progressive thing to do would be to move away from cassette/elsan disposal with the eventual aim of every boater having a composting toilet and CRT providing disposal facilities to match. 

What do land lubbers do when they fit a composting toilet in their house? I guess anyone making this choice has the space to complete composting. Like boaters not every one has this space, in fact I’d venture the majority do not. So what’s the solution, continue to use water toilets? This is not sustainable, ideally (like the shift to electric vehicles, inc. boats) there would be an incentive to shift towards composting toilets for everyone. I’m imagining big composting centres where the stuff form composting toilets can be taken to do its thing and this would just be a run if the mill municipal service that CRT could be a part of. 
 

I wonder what the cost (assuming we could magically switch overnight with no cost) of running a composting service would be to running and maintaining a sewage system, taking into account any environmental benefit. 
 

Obviously this is wishful thinking and it doesn’t help with the current situation... just thinking out loud.

 

I also can’t help but think that on the whole people are pretty squeamish about their excrement, I bet this has something to do with the low uptake of composting systems, on land that is. 
 

Also it’s always been the case that demand has to increase before any kind of sensible system gets put in place to match it (electric cars being a good example). God forbid anyone should be told what to do, even if it’s for the best. Bloody know it all elites... 

There are no suitable alernative solutions.

Look at dog poo bins, the LA collect dog poo then take it to landfill when they also empty the litter bins.

In fact it would be better to put everything in litter bins, so that they are less offensive to those who have to handle them.

In some places, I think the local authority could empty bins for CRT, but they would charge, and they would specify sorting. If not sorted they won't remove it, what then.

If the poo is not mixed with carrier materials it will not compost.

If it is not subsequently handled correctly it will not compost.

If random people just throw random stuff in with compostable material the end result will not be compost for gardens. 

If sheds burn down due to combustion, insurance will probably walk away. CRT are not in the composting business, they struggle with facilities management due to seasonal factors and random people factors.

Edited by LadyG
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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

As Arthur said (and I did earlier), probably the only workable solution would be if CaRT compost-enabled the whole network and most boats switched to composting toilets to spread the cost out. Like electric charging points this would be a great green solution for the long-term, but it needs a properly worked-out strategy on how to roll this out and how to pay for it.

Exactly and is what I also said earlier, that communication was necessary as a first step to possibly achieving this, but you prefer to ridicule instead. 

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7 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Exactly and is what I also said earlier, that communication was necessary as a first step to possibly achieving this, but you prefer to ridicule instead. 

No I don't, all the arguments I've made are factual -- except where I've pointed out the illogical and sometimes ridiculous arguments being put forwards by the bag-and-bin brigade, sometimes leavened with humour 😉

 

No amount of communication or consultation is going to change the fact that an increasing number of boaters using composting toilets in a way that they weren't intended to be used (i.e. not composting) are causing problems for CaRT which need solving, and that the problem is largely of their own making regardless of what advice was previously given by CaRT -- and that changing circumstances very often lead to changes in rules.

Edited by IanD
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4 minutes ago, IanD said:

No I don't, all the arguments I've made are factual -- except where I've pointed out the illogical and sometimes ridiculous arguments being put forwards by the bag-and-bin brigade, sometimes leavened with humour 😉

 

No amount of communication or consultation is going to change the fact that an increasing number of people using composting toilets in a way that they weren't intended to be used (i.e. not composting) are causing problems for CaRT which need solving, and that the problem is largely of their own making regardless of what advice was previously given by CaRT -- changing circumstances very often lead to changes in rules.

Ridicule is humour... Im guilty of it too. But continuing to use the same ridicule to enforce your opinion is close to spite. 

 

Changing minds leads to changing circumstances, sometimes and hopefully for the better.  I agree it needs solving and not only for the majority. The minority have every right to be heard, but more often than not they are shouted down.  Whilst the dry toilet owner are currently the minority, their circumstances are as important as yours. 

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24 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Ridicule is humour... Im guilty of it too. But continuing to use the same ridicule to enforce your opinion is close to spite. 

 

Changing minds leads to changing circumstances, sometimes and hopefully for the better.  I agree it needs solving and not only for the majority. The minority have every right to be heard, but more often than not they are shouted down.  Whilst the dry toilet owner are currently the minority, their circumstances are as important as yours. 

Of course their circumstances matter to them, but to be blunt they're a tiny fraction of boaters who have taken advantage of a "loophole" in the rules to adopt a sewage solution which is convenient for them but increasingly inconvenient for CaRT and all the other boaters.

 

They have a right to be heard, but any organisation has to look at the effect of their rules on everybody, and allowing ~1% of boaters to do something which is good for them but bad for the other 99% (and the organisation) is only ever going to have one outcome.

 

Nothing to do with being shouted down; their complaints will be heard, but any rule change will almost certainly go against them and in favour of CaRT and everyone else.

 

That's how all organisations (and governments) work (or should do); look at both sides of the argument, and choose the best (or sometimes least worst...) option looking at all the alternatives.

 

And before anyone says that this is discrimination like race or colour, no it's not -- better (or equal) rights for racial minorities doesn't take away rights from the majority, it's not a zero-sum game. Here we have a clear conflict between the "rights" (or to be more accurate, desires, they were never rights) of a (tiny) minority, and the majority together with the organisation providing services to both.

Edited by IanD
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Im talking about initiating discussions with C&RT despite how you think it should work, and despite how much it might fail,  but If you intend to take this into political realms, I'm out.   

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16 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Im talking about initiating discussions with C&RT despite how you think it should work, and despite how much it might fail,  but If you intend to take this into political realms, I'm out.   

I'm not taking it political -- do I really need to put ten smileys after anything that might contain any trace of irony or humour? 😉 😉 😉 😉 😉

 

Discussions with CaRT are absolutely needed, but if these are entered onto on the basis of "you told us this was OK and it either has to stay that way or you have to find a way to fix it, I know my rights" they'll be very short discussions.

 

Given the facts of the matter, I can't see that CaRT have any alternative to making the rules/advice change from post#1 -- unless the discussions can come up with another realistic solution that solves the problem, doesn't cost CaRT a fortune they haven't got, and can be realised reasonably quickly. Wishful thinking won't solve this, neither will calling out to entrepreneurs or hoping for a mystical money tree, or saying it doesn't really matter because nappies are just as bad.

 

So far nobody has managed to come up with one, but you never know, pigs (or unicorns...) might fly... 😉

Edited by IanD
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On 13/02/2021 at 17:38, IanD said:

So here's a question for the compost loo users -- if the waste was disposable of at the same sites (boatyards, marinas) who do pumpouts and at the same cost, would you still be so keen on having one?

 

Or would you conclude that if it cost the same and needed emptying as often you'd rather have a pumpout tank and not have all the bother of separating and storing/disposing of separate liquid and solid waste?

There is a Youtuber making a series called The narrowboat that James built. On the 10th January this year he devoted a whole video headed 'Which narrowboat toilet is best ?'  He describes Pump out toilets, cassettes and composting toilets . He bought a Simploo composting toilet for £320 because he wasn't prepared to pay for pump outs or have tanks fitted and didn't want to buy chemicals for a cassette. He claims he will go several weeks composting his poo and then bag it up and put it in a bin. I suspect many watching this video do exactly the same and for the same reason , namely to save money. Composting he certainly wont be. 

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17 minutes ago, Troyboy said:

There is a Youtuber making a series called The narrowboat that James built. On the 10th January this year he devoted a whole video headed 'Which narrowboat toilet is best ?'  He describes Pump out toilets, cassettes and composting toilets . He bought a Simploo composting toilet for £320 because he wasn't prepared to pay for pump outs or have tanks fitted and didn't want to buy chemicals for a cassette. He claims he will go several weeks composting his poo and then bag it up and put it in a bin. I suspect many watching this video do exactly the same and for the same reason , namely to save money. Composting he certainly wont be. 

Youtubers and vloggers doing this are probably largely responsible for the increase in bag-and-bin composters which kicked off this entire controversy, as was pointed out earlier in the thread.

 

The money was my exact point in response to comments about "the non-composters will pay to have their waste taken away" -- oh no they won't, not even if it costs the same as pumpouts (which it won't, it'll cost more due to economies of scale).

 

So I expect that the new advice to boaters in post#1 will first become official CaRT policy, maybe with an allowable transition period, but probably with no teeth to enforce it since they'd have to change some use/license conditions for this.

 

If/when the vloggers keep ignoring it CaRT will have to do the same as they did with sea toilets, which is ban their use on the canals, now with teeth like making it a condition of the license. [is this what happened with sea toilets?]

 

There might then be another allowable transition period to replace them, or they might take the view that this was already used in in phase#1 when everybody ignored the advice, you've had plenty of warning.

 

If people like Peter are lucky they might be able to get an exemption if they can demonstrate they're composting properly, but this would be difficult to enforce and they're an even tinier minority, outnumbered 3:1 by the binners.

 

Whatever happens there's going to be plenty of bad feeling on all sides 😞

Edited by IanD
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5 minutes ago, IanD said:

f/when the vloggers keep ignoring it CaRT will have to do the same as they did with sea toilets, which is ban their use on the canals, now with teeth like making it a condition of the license. [is this what happened with sea toilets?]

 

 

No, they cannot amend the conditions for issue of a licence.

The 'sea-toilet' being sealed off and unable to drain directly out is a BSS requirement (the BSS being a requirement of the licence)

 

Edit to add the BSS Requirements

 

9.2.1 Is a closeable valve fitted in the discharge line of any toilet appliance or toilet holding tank with overboard discharge? R

 

Check all toilets and toilet holding tanks for the presence of an overboard discharge line. If present, check for the presence and condition of a closeable valve installed in the discharge line.

All toilets and toilet holding tanks having an overboard discharge line must have a closeable valve fitted in the discharge line.

The valve and connections must be complete and leak‐free.

 

NOTE – valves must not be operated.

NOTE – the diverter valvesto toilet holding tanks not capable of being discharged overboard satisfy this check.

NOTE – discharge outlets having a ‘tools‐to‐remove’ cap, and overboard discharge lines from toilet holding tanks discharged solely by shore‐side pumping arrangements, are not subject to this check.

 

Examiner action – if toilet waste is determined to be escaping into the watercourse contact the BSS Office and take the relevant actions described in Appendix B. If the arrangementsinevitably result in toilet waste discharging overboard contact the BSS Office

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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@LadyG There is a viable alternative, just one that requires a lot of vision and resource to enact. I agree that there is no short term solution. 
 

I have a dream, of a compost-enabled network!! (Excellent term by the way... @IanD)

 

@tree monkey Switching to compost based system rather than sewage is absolutely viable. Anything is viable with sufficient enthusiasm and investment, it just requires that investors be convinced of its viability, sadly in this world it would probably require a guarantee of massive financial return rather than just the warm fuzzy feeling of having done something good for the planet. 
 

The idea that we can just carry on as we do now merrily flushing away is daft. Wouldn’t it be cool if boaters could lead the compost revolution! 😎 

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

No, they cannot amend the conditions for issue of a licence.

The 'sea-toilet' being sealed off and unable to drain directly out is a BSS requirement (the BSS being a requirement of the licence)

Thanks for clarifying that. In which case that's what they'll have to do, make it a BSS requirement.

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C&RT are in a tough spot.

Their contract with the waste disposal company, does not allow for the removal of a certian waste product, at the contract price.

What should they do?

Pay more for a contract that will allow removal.  (we pay more licence fees)

Change contractors.  (for the same cost?)

Remove the waste product from the collection.

 

Bod

Answers on a postcard  please.

 

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23 minutes ago, WillCful said:

@LadyG There is a viable alternative, just one that requires a lot of vision and resource to enact. I agree that there is no short term solution. 
 

I have a dream, of a compost-enabled network!! (Excellent term by the way... @IanD)

 

@tree monkey Switching to compost based system rather than sewage is absolutely viable. Anything is viable with sufficient enthusiasm and investment, it just requires that investors be convinced of its viability, sadly in this world it would probably require a guarantee of massive financial return rather than just the warm fuzzy feeling of having done something good for the planet. 
 

The idea that we can just carry on as we do now merrily flushing away is daft. Wouldn’t it be cool if boaters could lead the compost revolution! 😎 

It's all possible if it becomes a fundamental part of the green canal network, along with electric charging stations. This means:

 

1. Phasing out diesel engines in favour of electric boats (series hybrids to start off with)

2. Phasing out solid fuel/diesel heating in favour of water-source heat pumps (also driven by pollution/particulate regulations)

3. Phasing out pumpout/Elsan toilets in favour of composting (with a composting network to deal with the waste)

 

Whether CaRT (and the government) has the vision and money to make this happen is the key. I'd love to think they could (should?) have, but doubt this government would do it -- it would need somebody with the vision of Barbara Castle, backed by a government which really believes in green technology and wants to make our unique canal system fit for the future.

 

Either way this is not going to be a short-term solution -- though it's actually a tiny problem compared to making UK housing/transport/power/manufacturing green, it needs a "champion" to make it happen.

 

Wouldn't it be great if it ever happened though?... <sigh>

Edited by IanD
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