Electric sockets - completely lost

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

 

 

Nasty, but effective.

 

MP.

 

That's one way to describe it I guess.

 

I can think of others.

[JonesBoy]

Could use one of these to test for AC voltage if not confident with using a meter. Will not show the DC ones. Test on a known mains AC socket before use.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/KAIWEETS%C2%AE-Electrical-Voltage-Display-Neutral/dp/B087TYXHKW/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

 

[pete.i]

2 hours ago, PD1964 said:

Are you still in the Marina?? I think you need someone with experience with boats and there systems just to walk you around and explain the 12v and 240v system layout and the differences with being on shore power and Inverter, before you confuse kill yourself. too much.

  Looking at the pictures you posted when you bought it, it looks like there shouldn’t be anything out of the ordinary with the set up. Then again? Good luck.

Did you get the boat surveyed before purchase? 

Get somebody in who knows what they are doing with electrics.

[Tony Brooks]

The OP could drill three small holes in a plug top so a meter probe will just go through them and contact the screws in the legs. That way there should be all but zero chance of getting a shock. Certainly better than taking the sockets off the wall.

[Graham Davis]

3 hours ago, Rick Savery said:

Thank you everyone who has answered. Still slightly confused  - I am reasonably OK with using a multimeter (he says!), rather than shoving the needles from the multimeter into the holes would I be better off doing that to the back of the sockets, if you see what I mean.

Also, I think - or rather assume- that those sockets that are labelled 12v are those connected to the inverter, so effectively will run at 240V when running. It is very confusing and I don't see that it is logical or sensible to use the same sokcets for both shore mains and inverter mains - what if the labels fell off? Bonkers

So a tester plug (as mentioned by TheBiscuits) would work on those labelled 12V when the inverter is on?

I can't see how or why they would supply 12V yet use the same socket as 240V as I thought 12V devices aren't plugged up that way.

I agree with running 5V supplies for USB but unsure how I would do this - would it be a completely separate installation or could the existing wiring be used but just disconnected from going through the inverter.

Also (this really shows how little I know) I assume that when running without shore mains, those sockets would just not work, rather than also being utilised by the inverter (no idea how that would work, or even if that makes any sense, sorry!) 

Just so I'm clear - is it possible that some of the square-pin sockets(labelled 12V) may, in fact, be running 12V dc rather than my assumption that they would all be running 240Vac via the inverter?

 

If so, really confused by why that would be done

Reading this reply I think that the best advice, considering your obvious inexperience, would be to get someone in who does understand electrics, and get them to test everything, label everything in a way you can understand, and quote on rewiring in a safe manner.

[PD1964]

Obviously the OP is new to all this and clueless(don’t mean to offend) and it’s difficult to explain his situation without exactly knowing how it works and correct terminology, So I would say his best bet is to speak to the previous owner and ask him to pop back to the boat to explain the systems and how they work. Failing that the Marina who sold the boat and informing them he is a complete novice and needs help and hopefully they will oblige with a suitable person, with the OP taking notes so to take it all in and remember.

  We can all surmise the problem but without actually seeing the electrical system, both 12v and 240v shoreline/inverter and hardware, we are all just guessing the situation and probably confusing him more, as all boats are different and unique to the previous owner.

  He has just bought the boat so hopefully the previous owner or Marina/Broker will assist. Has he tried these avenues or just posted his worries on here?

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by PD1964

[Tracy D'arth]

3 hours ago, MoominPapa said:

There is a way to use the same type of sockets for 12v and 240v and make confusion between the two impossible. Note that I don't recommend doing this, but I have seen it done.

 

The trick is to remove the earth pin from the plugs to be used for 12v and install it permanently in the socket connected to 12v. That means 12v plugs without an earth pin cannot be plugged into 240v sockets as there's nothing to operate the shutters. Similarly 240v plugs with an earth pin won't go into 12v sockets because the earth pin hole is blocked. 12v sockets don't get shutters and earth connections, but they are safe without either.

 

Nasty, but effective.

 

MP.

 

That was Boater Sam's  idea, he did his boat like that, his son has it still.  Why do you say its nasty?

I can see one big advantage in that every socket then has a fuse. I understand it has been like that for over 20 years and they are both still alive ! I think Sam is still out of  the UK.

[Slim]

3 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

I suspect this is how the OP's boat has been wired BUT in the absence of seeing a diagram it's not possible to say.

 

I also wonder why if it as been so wired why each socket isn't labeled 'Inverter' and 'Shore/genny' or some such to differentiate.

 

I still urge the OP to get somebody competent to have a proper look rather than try and get forum members to second guess and advise over the internet. Feels like a recipe for disaster to me.

My 'shore/genny' outlets are hard wired via fused outlets.(same as a domestic immersion might be)

[Tracy D'arth]

22 minutes ago, Slim said:

My 'shore/genny' outlets are hard wired via fused outlets.(same as a domestic immersion might be)

Good idea for fixed appliances, bit of a problem with the TV, toaster, hair dryer, kettle etc.

[PD1964]

4 hours ago, Slim said:

I, quite correctly, have two 230v circuits on my boat. One circuit is fed by either the shorepower or generator and supplies heavy demand appliances such as the washing machine, dryer and 2 Kwh immersion heater whilst the other circuit supplies only low demand appliances such as TV, microwave, fridge etc. Everything is fed through a 100/2000 Mastervolt combi totally in accordance with MV instructions. All the manuals are on the boat so can't quote precise details off hand.

 

I'm keeping out of the main question as I'm uncomfortable about the OPs level of technical understanding.

Every boat is different, this set up uses both AC outlets of the Mastervolt, the high consumption/power outlet for what I believe only works when on shore/grid power so ideal for a Marina based boat that possibly cruises weekends/short periods. Then when out and you need your washer/dryer you use your generator, saving the inverter/batteries. 

[ditchcrawler]

We can all say what we think but I knew a boater who used 13 amp plugs and sockets for his 12 volt as well as his 240 volt by connecting the 12 volts earth to neutral on the 12 volt 13 amp sockets.

Some people do some strange things because it make sense to them . I will add he died of old age, not electrocution. 

[RickS]

Thank you to everyone who posted a reply - apologies for not naming you all. Although I don't understand a lot of some of the answers, I still think I have learned something - if only to get someone in to explain it to me ?

I think I am using terminology incorrectly that is either confusing the issue or engendering answers that are confusing me!

I am in a marina – to be honest I haven’t tried other avenues, I hoped the problem would be simple or obvious but it seems it isn’t, or at least it might be, but without wiring diagrams or a better explanation from me, it is unreasonable for me to expect you guys to work blind, as it were.

As pete.i, Graham Davis, PD1964 and The Happy Nomad have pointed out (and probably everyone else thought) I think my best plan is to get someone in to have a look and explain it to me.

 

PD1964    Did you get the boat surveyed before purchase? 

 

Yes, and have just re-read the section about electrics

‘There are several square pin sockets, (the type used for 230volt) fitted in the saloon area, these are labelled as 12volt. The surveyor can confirm that they are not connected to the 230volt supply, however it cannot be confirmed if they are connected to the 12volt supply’

 

I suspect I have been a bit of a dick about this – I clearly hadn’t taken this in when I first got the survey report. Although still not sure whether they are supplying 12V and why they are square-pin sockets

 

I understand those who have expressed concern at my level of knowledge – I agree with you and won’t be taking risks – although will try to meter the sockets.

Thanks again

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Rick Savery said:

The surveyor can confirm that they are not connected to the 230volt supply

 

That's the critical bit, and good to see.

 

Replacing the wired-for-12V ones is still a good idea, but that line means you don't need to panic.

[ditchcrawler]

Here is a phot that has just come up on Facebook with a 13amp socket outlet connected to 12 volts DC, the question was why didn't the usb outlet work nothing to do with 12 volts on 13 amp sockets.

[RickS]

14 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

That's the critical bit, and good to see.

 

Replacing the wired-for-12V ones is still a good idea, but that line means you don't need to panic.

Definitely going to replace the sockets with 12V / 5V specific ones - although dont have any 12V appliances, mainly for USB.

Still not understanding why square-pin sockets were connected to the 12V supply (assuming they were) - maybe overthinking that bit

[PD1964]

It’s all a learning experience, just learn as much as you can about your boat, systems, engine, handling and enjoy your new life, all the best?

Edited December 29, 2020 by PD1964

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, Rick Savery said:

Still not understanding why square-pin sockets were connected to the 12V supply (assuming they were)

 

Because whoever fitted them was a blithering idiot!  There is no sensible reason to have done so, and quite a few good reasons not to.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Here is a phot that has just come up on Facebook with a 13amp socket outlet connected to 12 volts DC, the question was why didn't the usb outlet work nothing to do with 12 volts on 13 amp sockets.

Unbelievable.

 

Or maybe not.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Here is a phot that has just come up on Facebook with a 13amp socket outlet connected to 12 volts DC, the question was why didn't the usb outlet work nothing to do with 12 volts on 13 amp sockets.

 

Black to 'earth' red to 'live' so it MUST work.

[ditchcrawler]

31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Black to 'earth' red to 'live' so it MUST work.

I think you need to look a bit closer

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think you need to look a bit closer

Black to earth (well the terminal has an earth symbol)

Red to Live (+)

 

If only it had a neutral (-) wire connection

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Black to earth (well the terminal has an earth symbol)

Red to Live (+)

 

If only it had a neutral (-) wire connection

 

 

I think the black actually goes into the recessed neutral terminal opposite the live one just behind the earth rail, the earth terminal being below the rail on the photo.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think the black actually goes into the recessed neutral terminal opposite the live one just behind the earth rail, the earth terminal being below the rail on the photo.

Well either way the USB sockets in that outlet just will not work without 240v mains.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[TheBiscuits]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think the black actually goes into the recessed neutral terminal opposite the live one just behind the earth rail, the earth terminal being below the rail on the photo.

 

No, the black cable is stuffed in down the side of the pin in the earth socket that moves the shutters! 

 

 

I agree the earth connection should be made the other side of the rail if you were wiring it correctly.

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

No, the black cable is stuffed in down the side of the pin in the earth socket that moves the shutters! 

 

 

I agree the earth connection should be made the other side of the rail if you were wiring it correctly.

I must apologise, I think you are right.