DC-DC Converter

[cuthound]

38 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

or someone who it seem has not yet realised manufacturers and marketeers spend a lot of time getting as close to lying as they can in their own rather than a customer's best interest.

 

Indeed,  I refer to their most outrageous claoms as "marketing bolleaux". ?

[Guest]

This is from the smartguage website, and I assume are the famous Gibbo's words:

 

When external alternator controllers first started to appear on the market the public took a huge amount of convincing of their worth. The "oil lamp brigade" (an entirely affectionate trade term) simply refused to accept that there was anything wrong with their existing alternators or the way they charged their batteries. They believed alternator controllers were not required and were being sold by unscrupulous dealers who simply wanted something to sell. The manufacturers and suppliers of such equipment faced an enormous up-hill battle trying to convince people that their external controllers made such a huge difference.

Those people who took the suppliers at their word, and fitted such a device, took no more convincing. The end results of fitting an external alternator controller were nothing short of astonishing, reducing charge times to a third of the previously required time and increasing the resultant available battery power by up to four times from the same battery bank.

It is interesting to note that exactly the same thing happened when 3 stage battery chargers first appeared, and inverters, and battery monitors, and battery conditioners. The public takes a lot of convincing about anything new - now just about everyone has them because finally, they learned that they were actually very good ideas.

 

All I was trying to understand was the pros and cons of a device, with a view to really understanding if it would offer any theoretical benefit. Armed with this information, I could make an informed assessment on it's practical value (yes, including complete absence of value, if that proved to be the case). That doesn't make me naive, or a sucker for marketing - quite the contrary I think. Yes, I'm irritable because I keep getting told 'what you want is this', 'more money than sense', etc. etc. With every cat comes many ways of skinning it, just because one works very well for everyone does not mean it is the best way. And ways change as technology changes. Even in the quote above (from some years ago) it says three stage chargers are a very good idea, yet many of you still only have a two stage charging method. Fine, you're happy with it. You have your way of skinning your cat and that's that. Totally fine.

 

So, it turns out there is some significant potential value in temperature monitoring, both in terms of the minor voltage adjustments to prevent gassing/reduce charge time, but also, if I have a very warm battery bay, should I even be charging at the time? Wouldn't that exacerbate the battery life issue? But then, it the battery bay is that hot, it's a lovely warm day and I have lots of lovely solar power and the opportunity to fully charge my batteries, which they will perhaps thank me for, even though I've just baked them a little more. Maybe it' not worth it for LAs, maybe almost worth it for VRLAs, maybe for lead carbons, certainly for Li.

 

And so it goes on...questions lead to more questions. And it's tedious. It's not for everyone.

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Peanut34 said:

The end results of fitting an external alternator controller were nothing short of astonishing, reducing charge times to a third of the previously required time and increasing the resultant available battery power by up to four times from the same battery bank.

Does that mean that if I buy an external alternator controller my 1200Ah battery bank will become 4800Ah ?

 

That sounds more like a claim from Sterling that Gibbo.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Does that mean that if I buy an external alternator controller my 1200Ah battery bank will become 4800Ah ?

 

That sounds more like a claim from Sterling that Gibbo.

No, here is the full article:

 

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/controllers.html

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Peanut34 said:

No, here is the full article:

 

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/controllers.html

What a load of waffle that may have applied many years ago, but as he correctly says, it no longer applies - external controllers are no longer needed.

 

Have you read the article in full ?

 

Most alternators, however, already contain their own, in built, regulator. Yet even with this type, for historical reasons, a large proportion of people are under the impression that an external alternator controller will vastly improve their charge performance.

This, quite simply, is an outdated fallacy. It was true perhaps 15 years ago. It is no longer always the case. Times have changed, alternators have changed, batteries have changed.

 

Now then, I've sung the praises of alternator controllers and explained what they do, how they do it, and the benefits when installed on an old (13.8 volt) alternator with old batteries. i.e. from the period of 10 to 15 years ago when these devices became common. They were an excellent idea.

So why do I say they are not always needed?

Simple. Most modern alternators already charge at 14.2, 14.4 or even 14.6 volts. That is how they come from the factory.

For some reason that we cannot fathom there seem to be various people who (for whatever reason) will not accept (or admit) that modern alternators already charge at these higher voltages, as they come from the factory, without any modification. They simply refuse to believe it. All one has to do is measure one with a voltmeter!

Modern batteries do not use excess water if charged at these higher voltages for long periods of time. If they did, then all the truck and car batteries round the world would be dying very quickly because they are charged continuously at higher voltages. They aren't all dying. If anything, they are lasting longer than they used to.

 

Times have changed. Batteries have changed. Alternators have changed. Alternator controllers are not required on modern systems. They will achieve nothing.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[dmr]

20 minutes ago, Peanut34 said:

This is from the smartguage website, and I assume are the famous Gibbo's words:

 

When external alternator controllers first started to appear on the market the public took a huge amount of convincing of their worth. The "oil lamp brigade" (an entirely affectionate trade term) simply refused to accept that there was anything wrong with their existing alternators or the way they charged their batteries. They believed alternator controllers were not required and were being sold by unscrupulous dealers who simply wanted something to sell. The manufacturers and suppliers of such equipment faced an enormous up-hill battle trying to convince people that their external controllers made such a huge difference.

Those people who took the suppliers at their word, and fitted such a device, took no more convincing. The end results of fitting an external alternator controller were nothing short of astonishing, reducing charge times to a third of the previously required time and increasing the resultant available battery power by up to four times from the same battery bank.

It is interesting to note that exactly the same thing happened when 3 stage battery chargers first appeared, and inverters, and battery monitors, and battery conditioners. The public takes a lot of convincing about anything new - now just about everyone has them because finally, they learned that they were actually very good ideas.

 

All I was trying to understand was the pros and cons of a device, with a view to really understanding if it would offer any theoretical benefit. Armed with this information, I could make an informed assessment on it's practical value (yes, including complete absence of value, if that proved to be the case). That doesn't make me naive, or a sucker for marketing - quite the contrary I think. Yes, I'm irritable because I keep getting told 'what you want is this', 'more money than sense', etc. etc. With every cat comes many ways of skinning it, just because one works very well for everyone does not mean it is the best way. And ways change as technology changes. Even in the quote above (from some years ago) it says three stage chargers are a very good idea, yet many of you still only have a two stage charging method. Fine, you're happy with it. You have your way of skinning your cat and that's that. Totally fine.

 

So, it turns out there is some significant potential value in temperature monitoring, both in terms of the minor voltage adjustments to prevent gassing/reduce charge time, but also, if I have a very warm battery bay, should I even be charging at the time? Wouldn't that exacerbate the battery life issue? But then, it the battery bay is that hot, it's a lovely warm day and I have lots of lovely solar power and the opportunity to fully charge my batteries, which they will perhaps thank me for, even though I've just baked them a little more. Maybe it' not worth it for LAs, maybe almost worth it for VRLAs, maybe for lead carbons, certainly for Li.

 

And so it goes on...questions lead to more questions. And it's tedious. It's not for everyone.

Gibbo is a very clever bloke, he invented the Smartguage, but he did get a few things wrong and certainly got the advantages of external alternator controllers wrong.

There are some very over the top claims about controllers, I think Adverc are guilt of this, but for an off grid liveaboard a contoller is almost essential.

Do note that Gibbo also produced and sold the "Smartbank". This is basically an alternator sharing device but he chose to market it as a competitor to an alternator controller so had a vested interest in claiming external controllers were no good.

 

You don't have to take my word for this assuming you have a boat you can get a controller, a voltmeter and an ammeter (and probably a hydrometer) and prove it for yourself.

 

...............Dave

[Tony Brooks]

21 minutes ago, Peanut34 said:

No, here is the full article:

 

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/controllers.html

and did you take notice of this bit:

 

"So why do I say they are not always needed?

Simple. Most modern alternators already charge at 14.2, 14.4 or even 14.6 volts. That is how they come from the factory.

For some reason that we cannot fathom there seem to be various people who (for whatever reason) will not accept (or admit) that modern alternators already charge at these higher voltages, as they come from the factory, without any modification. They simply refuse to believe it. All one has to do is measure one with a voltmeter!

Modern batteries do not use excess water if charged at these higher voltages for long periods of time. If they did, then all the truck and car batteries round the world would be dying very quickly because they are charged continuously at higher voltages. They aren't all dying. If anything, they are lasting longer than they used to.

Times have changed. Batteries have changed. Alternators have changed. Alternator controllers are not required on modern systems. They will achieve nothing.

So, we are left with a situation that the only installations that may benefit from an external alternator controller are systems with an old style alternator or.....

(and I find this interesting...)

Systems using split charge diodes. Which, as most people have now realised, are all but useless.

It is also interesting that the only people left advocating the use of split charge diodes are manufacturers and suppliers of external alternator controllers (or perhaps people who haven't caught up with developments in technology). Because, in most cases, split charge diodes are the only reason to fit one to a modern installation, in order to compensate for the voltage drop across the split charge diode."

 

Which is what many of us have been trying to explain to you. With a modern alternator or twin alternators an a properly specified system add on extras are unlikely to make a significant difference to an all LA battery system. Yo can perhaps knock a bit of recharge time but probably at the expense of a small bit of battery life. If you are convinced elevated voltages at the end of absorption or as an equalisation charge are vital then may be you need an alternator controller that allows you to alter its voltage settings but apart from  that you almost certainly don't need to spend any money and comparatively low current battery to battery controllers.

 

As Gibbo explains elsewhere on his site you can easily raise the alternator's regulated voltage by sticking a diode or diodes in the sense lead. that includes the field diode to regulator wire on machine sensed alternator. a switch will allow you to do the equalisation unless the inbuilt regulator has an inbuilt regulator has a maximum voltage override built in. You claims about building an alternator controller means fitting the diodes should be easy.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[dmr]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

What a load of waffle that may have applied many years ago, but as he correctly says, it no longer applies - external controllers are no longer needed.

 

Have you read the article in full ?

 

Most alternators, however, already contain their own, in built, regulator. Yet even with this type, for historical reasons, a large proportion of people are under the impression that an external alternator controller will vastly improve their charge performance.

This, quite simply, is an outdated fallacy. It was true perhaps 15 years ago. It is no longer always the case. Times have changed, alternators have changed, batteries have changed.

 

Now then, I've sung the praises of alternator controllers and explained what they do, how they do it, and the benefits when installed on an old (13.8 volt) alternator with old batteries. i.e. from the period of 10 to 15 years ago when these devices became common. They were an excellent idea.

So why do I say they are not always needed?

Simple. Most modern alternators already charge at 14.2, 14.4 or even 14.6 volts. That is how they come from the factory.

For some reason that we cannot fathom there seem to be various people who (for whatever reason) will not accept (or admit) that modern alternators already charge at these higher voltages, as they come from the factory, without any modification. They simply refuse to believe it. All one has to do is measure one with a voltmeter!

Modern batteries do not use excess water if charged at these higher voltages for long periods of time. If they did, then all the truck and car batteries round the world would be dying very quickly because they are charged continuously at higher voltages. They aren't all dying. If anything, they are lasting longer than they used to.

 

Times have changed. Batteries have changed. Alternators have changed. Alternator controllers are not required on modern systems. They will achieve nothing.

For many liveaboard boaters this bold statement is just totally wrong. I suspect beer might have been involved ?

 

Have batteries changed that much? Have alternators changed? The voltage has increased from maybe 13.8  (totally inadequate) to 14 or maybe 14.4 (inadequate if you have Trojans etc and low for most lead-acids). NickNormans observations about low gain controllers are also very important, I am not sure Gibbo had appreciated that one. 

I am an electrical/electronic engineer of much experience but it was not till I became an off grid liveaboard that I realised there was a whole lot of new stuff to understand.

 

................Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, dmr said:

For many liveaboard boaters this bold statement is just totally wrong. I suspect beer might have been involved ?

 

Have batteries changed that much? Have alternators changed? The voltage has increased from maybe 13.8  (totally inadequate) to 14 or maybe 14.4 (inadequate if you have Trojans etc and low for most lead-acids). NickNormans observations about low gain controllers are also very important, I am not sure Gibbo had appreciated that one. 

I am an electrical/electronic engineer of much experience but it was not till I became an off grid liveaboard that I realised there was a whole lot of new stuff to understand.

 

................Dave

Is 14.6v getter any better ?

 

Both of my alternators are 14.6v

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Is 14.6v getter any better ?

 

Both of my alternators are 14.6v

 

That is getting a bit close to typical lead antinomy gassing voltage so regular topping up might be required. Probably fine for lead calcium but then 14.7 would be better.

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Is 14.6v getter any better ?

 

Both of my alternators are 14.6v

 

Much better for wet Trojans, but you might not want to be using them with your sealed lead acid batteries ...

[dmr]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

and did you take notice of this bit:

 

"So why do I say they are not always needed?

Simple. Most modern alternators already charge at 14.2, 14.4 or even 14.6 volts. That is how they come from the factory.

For some reason that we cannot fathom there seem to be various people who (for whatever reason) will not accept (or admit) that modern alternators already charge at these higher voltages, as they come from the factory, without any modification. They simply refuse to believe it. All one has to do is measure one with a voltmeter!

Modern batteries do not use excess water if charged at these higher voltages for long periods of time. If they did, then all the truck and car batteries round the world would be dying very quickly because they are charged continuously at higher voltages. They aren't all dying. If anything, they are lasting longer than they used to.

Times have changed. Batteries have changed. Alternators have changed. Alternator controllers are not required on modern systems. They will achieve nothing.

So, we are left with a situation that the only installations that may benefit from an external alternator controller are systems with an old style alternator or.....

(and I find this interesting...)

Systems using split charge diodes. Which, as most people have now realised, are all but useless.

It is also interesting that the only people left advocating the use of split charge diodes are manufacturers and suppliers of external alternator controllers (or perhaps people who haven't caught up with developments in technology). Because, in most cases, split charge diodes are the only reason to fit one to a modern installation, in order to compensate for the voltage drop across the split charge diode."

 

Which is what many of us have been trying to explain to you. With a modern alternator or twin alternators an a properly specified system add on extras are unlikely to make a significant difference to an all LA battery system. Yo can perhaps knock a bit of recharge time but probably at the expense of a small bit of battery life. If you are convinced elevated voltages at the end of absorption or as an equalisation charge are vital then may be you need an alternator that allows you to alter its voltage settings but apart from  that you almost certainly don't need to spend any money.

 

As Gibbo explains elsewhere on his site you can easily raise the alternator's regulated voltage by sticking a diode or diodes in the sense lead. that includes the field diode to regulator wire on machine sensed alternator. a switch will allow you to do the equalisation unless the inbuilt regulator has an inbuilt regulator has a maximum voltage override built in. You claims about building an alternator controller means fitting the diodes should be easy.

Soldering diodes inside an alternator does not appeal to me at all, I think Gibbo just said this as part of his anti-controller rant. First he said the voltage is already ok, then he contradicts himself by saying use a diode to increase the voltage. I think he just had a big downer on Adverc.

A diode can only increase voltage in steps of 0.6volts (or is it 0.7 or is it temperature dependent ?.)

So if my alternator is 14.4 volts and I need 14.8 then the diode mod only gives the option of 15volts????

 

Its very easy to investigate this stuff if you have an Adverc as you can unplug the cable harness whilst the engine is running and instantly see the substantial change in charge current. The only drawback of an alternator controller is that it make the alternator run a lot hotter (so it must be doing something).

 

...............Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Much better for wet Trojans, but you might not want to be using them with your sealed lead acid batteries ...

 

I don't have sealed LA's - I have 6x 200-230AH truck batteries with 'open'cells so I can monitor and top up as neccessary.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Guest]

@Alan de Enfield Yes, of course I read the full article, I just put the excerpt up as an example of how ideas change.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Peanut34 said:

@Alan de Enfield Yes, of course I read the full article, I just put the excerpt up as an example of how ideas change.

 

And having read that you still ask about external alternator controllers ?

[dmr]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Is 14.6v getter any better ?

 

Both of my alternators are 14.6v

 

 

14.6 is better than 14.4, and much better than 14.0. If you have a spare few hours try to measure an amps vs volts charge curve similar to what Nick put on another thread, ten superimpose Nicks ideal "curve" on top and estimate the increase in amp-hours put in over a given period.

 

If your alternator is 14.6 and has a "tight" regulator  then  the advantages of a controller are certainly reduced.

 

.................Dave

...............Dave

[Guest]

@dmr and yes, that last statement on everything changing is quite strong.

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And having read that you still ask about external alternator controllers ?

When did I ask about external alternator controllers?

Edited December 28, 2020 by Guest
full stop

[nicknorman]

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Is 14.6v getter any better ?

 

Both of my alternators are 14.6v

 

 

The point is that it is not so much about the voltage the alternator finally manages to stagger up to once the batteries are hardly taking any current, it is about the ability for the alternator to supply a good voltage AND a good current at the same time - this affecting the mid-charge situation which is of course the situation that prevails for most of the time.

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, dmr said:

Soldering diodes inside an alternator does not appeal to me at all, I think Gibbo just said this as part of his anti-controller rant. First he said the voltage is already ok, then he contradicts himself by saying use a diode to increase the voltage. I think he just had a big downer on Adverc.

A diode can only increase voltage in steps of 0.6volts (or is it 0.7 or is it temperature dependent ?.)

So if my alternator is 14.4 volts and I need 14.8 then the diode mod only gives the option of 15volts????

 

Its very easy to investigate this stuff if you have an Adverc as you can unplug the cable harness whilst the engine is running and instantly see the substantial change in charge current. The only drawback of an alternator controller is that it make the alternator run a lot hotter (so it must be doing something).

 

...............Dave

 

Providing its not on one of its 10 to 20 minute "rest" period running on the alternator regulator. You may have modified your alternator to leave all regulation to the Adverk but that is not the typical installation. Just because you can see more amps on the ammeter does not mean its all going into chemical change, some may well be wasted in gassing and more in heating the battery.  I suspect @nicknorman's modified regulator that does not start regulating voltage too early in the charge may do almost as well as an Adverk. By the way if 14.8 volts is vital you could fit a lower voltage regulator plus diode.

 

The Adverc will not do the regulation as defined by the OP at the start of his topic but other make  seem more flexible.

[MarkH2159]

This thread has caused me some concern....actually raised a few questions....

 

I would like to know if there are any owners out there who use their narrowboats, in what ever way they wish, and have no real worries about batteries.

I refer to the people who start engines, switch on lights and other equipment and do not suffer endless problems with power storage or consumption.

 

Reason for the question is that having read many threads I find that as soon as Batteries or more specifically, charging thereof, is mentioned, then the 'posse' fly into action with all manner of 'recommendations' as to what is best.

I understand that there are always many ways of doing things and some may suit more than others, similarly there is always room for improvement where necessary.

 

However, I am a firm believer in the 'if it aint broke....' theory.

 

The OP asked a fairly simple question, albeit with added criteria, but it seems he was interested in information as to the viability of improving his set up.

It would appear that three pages later, not only was his question and the way he asked it wrong, in fact his entire set up was in question.

 

So back to my question, is there anyone who has a boat that starts and goes, provides adequate lighting and power, all with a simple engine/alternator/battery and maybe solar input set up, all without having to know things like voltages to two decimal places at all stages ?

[Sea Dog]

6 minutes ago, MarkH2159 said:

So back to my question, is there anyone who has a boat that starts and goes, provides adequate lighting and power, all with a simple engine/alternator/battery and maybe solar input set up, all without having to know things like voltages to two decimal places at all stages ?

Lots of us do. The key is to actually go cruising.

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, MarkH2159 said:

This thread has caused me some concern....actually raised a few questions....

 

I would like to know if there are any owners out there who use their narrowboats, in what ever way they wish, and have no real worries about batteries.

I refer to the people who start engines, switch on lights and other equipment and do not suffer endless problems with power storage or consumption.

 

Reason for the question is that having read many threads I find that as soon as Batteries or more specifically, charging thereof, is mentioned, then the 'posse' fly into action with all manner of 'recommendations' as to what is best.

I understand that there are always many ways of doing things and some may suit more than others, similarly there is always room for improvement where necessary.

 

However, I am a firm believer in the 'if it aint broke....' theory.

 

The OP asked a fairly simple question, albeit with added criteria, but it seems he was interested in information as to the viability of improving his set up.

It would appear that three pages later, not only was his question and the way he asked it wrong, in fact his entire set up was in question.

 

So back to my question, is there anyone who has a boat that starts and goes, provides adequate lighting and power, all with a simple engine/alternator/battery and maybe solar input set up, all without having to know things like voltages to two decimal places at all stages ?

Yes. Plenty. But these are usually people who don’t have a lot of electrical needs, they prefer to use candles, and by way of entertainment rather than switching on the telly they prefer to flog themselves with nettles.

 

They have some batteries, which sort of work, but being a couple of years old are down to 20% of their original capacity. Which is fine, because you only need a very dim light to locate the supply of nettles. And anyway, they make a virtue out of going to bed when the sun goes down and getting up when it rises.

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, MarkH2159 said:

So back to my question, is there anyone who has a boat that starts and goes, provides adequate lighting and power, all with a simple engine/alternator/battery and maybe solar input set up, all without having to know things like voltages to two decimal places at all stages ?

 

That is pretty much our 'set-up'.

We are 5-6 month of the year livaboards so don't generally need to consider 'Winter' electrical consumption, but we do run not only lights, computers, pumps but have a few 'large electrical consumption' items  - Fridge, Freezer, Microwave, and occasionally  (after a long run, and another planned the next day) kettle and toaster.

WE are not living in a cave, or roughing it.

 

We cruise for 4-12 hours per day, most days.

Have a battery bank of 6x 200Ah batteries and 2x 70 amp (14.6v) alternators and 170w (low light) Solar.

 

I have no worries about 'leccy, someone could have the same set-up but only cruise a couple of hours per week and it wouldn't work for them

 

Expectations and methods of boat use will determine what you need

 

Edit to correct spooking errurs : how do so many appear after pressing 'save'

Edited December 28, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[nicknorman]

On 23/12/2020 at 14:28, Peanut34 said:

Hello, has anyone fitted a DC-DC converter to their boat?

 

Just considering it...I have a nice MPPT solar controller but my alternator is very dumb - seems like there's room for improvement in the way I look after my batteries.

Yes.

 

End of thread.

 

 

That would be a pretty boring forum!

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Yes.

 

End of thread.

 

 

That would be a pretty boring forum!

Haha, but it wouldn't have been the end of the thread, I'd have been able to ask the follow-up questions I had about reasons for choice, observations on performance, etc.

 

But....well, that's not how it worked out, as we all know ?