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Diesel stove installation


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Hi folks, I am looking for a bit of advice please.  We are planning to change our multi fuel stove for a diesel one and are looking at the Bubble range.  Can anyone recommend an installer in the Braunston area?  As well as installing the stove itself we will need a diesel tank to be made and fitted in to an existing locker in the forward well which is on the other side of the front bulkhead to the position of the stove. 

Many thanks in anticipation. 

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7 minutes ago, Lottiespal said:

Hi folks, I am looking for a bit of advice please.  We are planning to change our multi fuel stove for a diesel one and are looking at the Bubble range.  Can anyone recommend an installer in the Braunston area?  As well as installing the stove itself we will need a diesel tank to be made and fitted in to an existing locker in the forward well which is on the other side of the front bulkhead to the position of the stove. 

Many thanks in anticipation. 

 

Don't forget that any diesel tank must have a 'spill deflector' so that when refilling any spillage must go overboard, and also remember that you will need a breather vent with an anti-spark/flash fitting.

 

Without both of those it is a BSS failure.

 

Don't just put 'any old steel tank' in there - it should also be pressure tested and marked as passing but the BSS examiner probably won't look for that.

Do not use a galvanised tank as the Sulphur in Diesel reacts with the Zinc galvanising and produces Zinc-Sulphate which is a 'jelly like substance that will block up your pipes and pumps.

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14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Don't forget that any diesel tank must have a 'spill deflector' so that when refilling any spillage must go overboard,

Agreed, although I have heard it said that if you have a self-draining front well deck, with no possibility of spilt diesel getting into the bilges, that complies. 

Not that I much fancy the idea of the well deck swilling in diesel.

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52 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Agreed, although I have heard it said that if you have a self-draining front well deck, with no possibility of spilt diesel getting into the bilges, that complies. 

Not that I much fancy the idea of the well deck swilling in diesel.

Better that much doesn’t end up in the canal, there will soon be a film of diesel and dissolved blacking spreading for as far as the eye can see.

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Thanks Tracy D’Arth, we are looking into this as a possibility. The stove can be run on kerosene but we are struggling to find places that supply small amounts and also wondering about how readily available it is canal side when we’re out and about. 

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10 minutes ago, Lottiespal said:

.........  how readily available it is canal side when we’re out and about. 

Its fair to say "its not likely to be available canal side".

 

Fine if you are in a marina and can get a delivery of 500 litres, or you have the capability to go to a seller and fill some 25 litre cans -but the small quantity surcharge for a couple of cans will probably take it to about the same price as the rebated red diesel used for domestic heating.

 

You do know that diesel used for 'domestic' use is at a special rebated price compared to diesel used for propulsion ?

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27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Its fair to say "its not likely to be available canal side".

 

Fine if you are in a marina and can get a delivery of 500 litres, or you have the capability to go to a seller and fill some 25 litre cans -but the small quantity surcharge for a couple of cans will probably take it to about the same price as the rebated red diesel used for domestic heating.

 

You do know that diesel used for 'domestic' use is at a special rebated price compared to diesel used for propulsion ?

At the moment my heating oil at home is about 30p/lt The best red diesel I have seen this week has been 70p But as you say buying it is the problem, but that of course may also be true for red soon

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2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

At the moment my heating oil at home is about 30p/lt The best red diesel I have seen this week has been 70p But as you say buying it is the problem, but that of course may also be true for red soon

Indeed, come 2022 the whole game changes, however the Government's proposals should mean that we will still be able to buy 'white' at a discounted price (based on 60/40 split as it is now)

 

Current 25 litre cans price for kero is ~£24

and for 20 litre cans ~£22

https://www.ryeoil.co.uk/shop/keroseneheating-oil-20-litre/

 

Considerably more than £0.70 for diesel.

 

The future 'base price' should not change, but there may well be some additional costs that the sellers will need to amortise to recoup the additional infrastructure costs.

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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Indeed, come 2022 the whole game changes, however the Government's proposals should mean that we will still be able to buy 'white' at a discounted price (based on 60/40 split as it is now)

 

Current 25 litre cans price for kero is ~£24

and for 20 litre cans ~£22

https://www.ryeoil.co.uk/shop/keroseneheating-oil-20-litre/

 

Considerably more than £0.70 for diesel.

 

The future 'base price' should not change, but there may well be some additional costs that the sellers will need to amortise to recoup the additional infrastructure costs.

That is quite a premium they are adding

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

That is quite a premium they are adding

There has always been something like a 100% premium for small quantities.

 

We had a TVO (Tractor Vaporising Oil) Tractor and when the production of TVO ceased we had to make our own using a Kero and petrol blend (80% Kero & 20% petrol) so we were buying small quantities of kero and realised the price premium. The Government (HMRCE) then introduced a licence which every farmer 'blending' their own TVO had to apply for due to the fact they were using rebated Kero in a potentially road going vehicle. Personal details and details of the vehicles (models, reg number etc) were required before the licence could be granted.

 

 

Hay making with the 'Little Grey Fergy'

 

20200307-100209.jpg

 

 

 

 

So all those boaters getting 'brown trousers' about the diesel changes will have nothing like the problems we had.

 

 

Looking at the price of Red Diesel (gas oil) in 20 litre cans, the agricultural price (5% duty which is equivalent to 'domestic' boat duty) is £28.35 (£1.40 /litre) which is again 100% premium over the 'marina' price of 70p / litre

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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That's expensive Alan. My local petrol station sells red diesel at 85p a litre.  I'll be buying some for my tractor tomorrow but they won't sell it to me for my boat. (Just to be clear I do have a tractor but my limited use doesn't warrant my buying in bulk)

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Last month I purchased 300 litres of red diesel from a local supplier, they delivered it for 57p per litre.

 

I should probably add that the workshop has a big diesel fired space heater!

Edited by Quattrodave
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8 hours ago, jonathanA said:

That's expensive Alan. My local petrol station sells red diesel at 85p a litre.  I'll be buying some for my tractor tomorrow but they won't sell it to me for my boat. (Just to be clear I do have a tractor but my limited use doesn't warrant my buying in bulk)

 

8 hours ago, Quattrodave said:

Last month I purchased 300 litres of red diesel from a local supplier, they delivered it for 57p per litre.

 

I should probably add that the workshop has a big diesel fired space heater!

 

No one is arguing about the price of either Kero or Gas-oil in 'bulk'.

 

That is exactly my point - buying small quantities in cans is expensive.

I buy in 1000 litre 'lots' for my Tractors, digger etc.

 

This all goes back to the suggestion that you use a small secondary tank for a heater and convert to Kerosene as it would be much cheaper than using red diesel.

A good idea, but a poor knowledge of the facts results in incorrect advice.

If you have a small (say) 50 or even 100 litres 'heater tank' you cannot have 500 litres (or even 300 litres) delivered to get the lower prices.

 

You cannot buy Kero on the cut (can you ?)

You cannot buy (maybe you can from a few places) Kero from a 'local garage'

You can buy Kero in 25 litre cans at a cost higher than diesel from canal vendors.

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48 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No one is arguing about the price of either Kero or Gas-oil in 'bulk'.

 

That is exactly my point - buying small quantities in cans is expensive.

Yes, my bad, i sort of lost track of the thread 🤐

 

48 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You cannot buy Kero on the cut (can you ?)

Not that i've ever seen, however if you have a big enough tank i see no reason why you can't get it delivered.  Although, having a tank that big just for heating fuel would be rather impractical... I'm going to shut up now 🙄

 

Edit:

One last thought, i wonder if  you couldn't purchace fuel oil from a local former in smaller quantities at a reasonable price...

Edited by Quattrodave
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20 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Don't forget that any diesel tank must have a 'spill deflector' so that when refilling any spillage must go overboard, and also remember that you will need a breather vent with an anti-spark/flash fitting.

 

Without both of those it is a BSS failure.

 

Don't just put 'any old steel tank' in there - it should also be pressure tested and marked as passing but the BSS examiner probably won't look for that.

Do not use a galvanised tank as the Sulphur in Diesel reacts with the Zinc galvanising and produces Zinc-Sulphate which is a 'jelly like substance that will block up your pipes and pumps.

What would the bss position be if the spillage fell into front well and then drained overboard. via the scuttles?

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19 hours ago, David Mack said:

Agreed, although I have heard it said that if you have a self-draining front well deck, with no possibility of spilt diesel getting into the bilges, that complies. 

Not that I much fancy the idea of the well deck swilling in diesel.

 

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9 minutes ago, Traveller said:

What would the bss position be if the spillage fell into front well and then drained overboard. via the scuttles?

BSS examiners tend to adapt the 'guidance' to suit there personal 'feelings' on all BSS requirements.

I am not an examiner but I'd look at the boat in question, decided if it met these requirements and if it did I'd say it was OK.

If an examiner said it 'failed' I think there would be an argument to be had.

 

If the scuppers were lower than the door step into the boat it would (in my mind) pass.

If the well deck was lower than the water-line (not uncommon) then it would (in my mind) fail.

 

Fuel overflowing from filling points must be prevented from entering any part of the interior of the vessel.

Accordingly, fuel filling points must be positioned so that…

 the camber or configuration of the deck; or,

 a coaming; or,

 a diverter arrangement;

 

…causes any overflow to discharge overboard;

Fuel filling points must be secure, and free of signs of damage or deterioration which could lead to overflowing fuel entering the interior of the vessel

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22 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

remember that you will need a breather vent with an anti-spark/flash fitting.

 

A comprehensive answer for the  OP as aways Alan.

What exactly is an "anti spark/flash fitting"?

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Justin at bottom lock has experience with diesel stoves

Thanks Brian, if it's Justin Green you are thinking about I'm pretty sure he's not at the Bottom Lock anymore. He's done work for us before and we've been very happy with him but I believe he now works at ABNB at Crick and isn't taking on this kind of work any more unfortunately for us.

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7 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

A comprehensive answer for the  OP as aways Alan.

What exactly is an "anti spark/flash fitting"?

 

 

 

It is a BSS requirement and is basically some scrunched up wire mesh inside the air vent.

from the BSS :

 

Is the fuel tank vent outlet fitted with an effective flame arrester or flame‐arresting gauze? (Required)

Check each vent outlet for the presence of a flame arrester or flame arresting gauze.

Vent outlets must be fitted with either a suitable proprietary flame arrester or gauze of at least 11 wires per linear cm (28 wires per inch) mesh.

Where the flame arrester is not of a suitable proprietary type the openings in the arrester’s body must be at least of the same area as the cross‐sectional area of the vent line.

Flame arresters or gauze must be complete and free of damage or restrictions.

 

14378.jpg

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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14 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Its fair to say "its not likely to be available canal side".

 

Fine if you are in a marina and can get a delivery of 500 litres, or you have the capability to go to a seller and fill some 25 litre cans -but the small quantity surcharge for a couple of cans will probably take it to about the same price as the rebated red diesel used for domestic heating.

 

You do know that diesel used for 'domestic' use is at a special rebated price compared to diesel used for propulsion ?

Agreed Alan, that is what we have found too.  Thanks, we are aware of the rebated price and with a separate tank purely supplying the stove it would be straightforward to claim it all as domestic use.

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