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Heather

BMC 1.5 keeps stalling

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34 minutes ago, Heather said:

It was definitely the oil pipe. I said they were useless!

WE had someone interested in buying the boat as well! t is a 30 ft broom skipper so too heavy to tow far.

Ah that's different.Compared to some of the battleships you see on the canals,a Broom Skipper is quite a lightweight.One horse used to tow a loaded barge.

A more economical alternative might be to consider converting to an outboard.

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Sorry I can't help with this at the moment, suffering knee trouble., elderly.  There is a Broom owners club that might recomend mechanics, google Broom owners club, you'll have to sign up to participate I expect.      Founder might be Trigger of ''Only fools and horses''. :).

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1 hour ago, Heather said:

Someone checked that the fuel is getting through ok so not looking good for the pistons! Would the engine still sound so sweet if the pistons were no good? It does sound rattly and noisy for first 5 minutes? 

 

I doubt an ordinary person would hear slap from worn pistons above the diesel knock. What you have just said sounds and behaves more like diesel knock to me which is "normal" and tends to be more to do with fuel quality than anything else. Until we can get a positive identity for that pipe so we know what area to think about I feel rather stumped. Some of the symptoms seem to counter each other. We really should not guess on this one until some diagnostic procedures have been done. A compression test would not go amiss but even if the compressions are low it would not rule out damaged or missing injector heat shields so the injectors would ideally have to come out for inspection before undertaking major engine work.

 

A Broom 35 may well have an engine oil cooler fitted to a 1.5 because the hull is at least estuary capable so could be run at maximum speed for long periods.

  • Greenie 1

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Too late to add this to my last post re diesel knock. The degree of knock is also related to engine temperature, the colder it is the louder the knock is likely to be which is why I have doubts about internal damage.

 

I think if the injection timing is retarded the engine will run smoothly but make smoke (black I think) and it will reduce the power output.

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13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Too late to add this to my last post re diesel knock. The degree of knock is also related to engine temperature, the colder it is the louder the knock is likely to be which is why I have doubts about internal damage.

 

I think if the injection timing is retarded the engine will run smoothly but make smoke (black I think) and it will reduce the power output.

Retarded injection will in my experience produce white smoke as the fuel has insufficient time in the combustion cycle to burn fully.

Black smoke is due to overloading of the engine and/or too early injection also low compression causing low combustion temperatures.

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6 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Retarded injection will in my experience produce white smoke as the fuel has insufficient time in the combustion cycle to burn fully.

Black smoke is due to overloading of the engine and/or too early injection also low compression causing low combustion temperatures.

Ta, I could not remember. So could still be pump timing involved but a compression test would be a good idea.

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On 22/09/2020 at 04:15, Heather said:

I had a reconditioned engine fitted. It worked fine until the oil cooler pipe came off and all the oil came out. We replaced the pipe and filled up the oil. Now it runs ok on tickover but cuts out after 5 minutes when using. It restarts but cuts out again and after a few goes like this the temperature goes up and it does not restart for a while. We had to replace the washers on the fuel filter as leaking and the fuel is flowing through ok.

How much oil did you put in ? If you over filled  with oil that would make starting sluggish and hard  to turn the engine

Are you positive air is not getting in the fuel system 

Graham

On 22/09/2020 at 04:15, Heather said:
Edited by jacko264
Duplicate

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17 hours ago, bizzard said:

Sorry I can't help with this at the moment, suffering knee trouble., elderly.  There is a Broom owners club that might recomend mechanics, google Broom owners club, you'll have to sign up to participate I expect.      Founder might be Trigger of ''Only fools and horses''. :).

Joint venture with Basil Brush

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Thank you. The oil level is ok. I don't think there is any air in the system as it normally revs up before dying if it has air and i had a friend look who said it seems ok. I am baffled as to why the revs wont go over 1500 when in gear as they go to 2100 when in neutral.

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7 minutes ago, Heather said:

I am baffled as to why the revs wont go over 1500 when in gear as they go to 2100 when in neutral.

If something is restricting the power the engine can produce, then something like this will result. The extra load of turning a prop in gear restricts the speed it can reach, compared with out of gear in neutral. Similar to how it is possible to pedal a bike faster on the flat than it is going up hill.

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies

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1 hour ago, Heather said:

Could this be a gearbox fault as there is a rattle when it goes in gear? The prop is fine.

As I have indicated there are all sorts of potential causes and we also don't know much about YOUR engine and what make of gearbox it is. Without a lot more information and photos to allow positive identification I would not like to say the gearbox has anything to do with the lack of speed, poor starting and overheating.

 

Some gearboxes clunk as they go into gear but a clunk is not a rattle. The typical cause of a rattle when associated with gearboxes is a drive plate failing but that has nothing to do with the actual gearbox, should have been seen when the engine and/or gearbox was fitted, and typically rattles when in neutral rather than in gear.

2 hours ago, Heather said:

Thank you. The oil level is ok. I don't think there is any air in the system as it normally revs up before dying if it has air and i had a friend look who said it seems ok. I am baffled as to why the revs wont go over 1500 when in gear as they go to 2100 when in neutral.

Actually the book gives a 1.5s no load maximum speed of 4400 rpm so 2100 flat out in neutral suggest the maximum speed stop has been adjusted down. Is this an Ex Hire Boat from the Broads/Ouse/Nene? (For others, there is no way I would run a 1.5 up to 4400 rpm but that is what the BMC Captain manual said). I think @Jen-in-Wellies has give an good explanation as to why you get less revs in and out of gear but we need to know if its always been like this or it has only happened since your problems. You may be suffering a loss of power and that could be caused by lack of fuel, maladjusted injection timing or lack of compression. Also its possible the valve timing was not correctly set during the engine's rebuild. It won't be possible to narrow it down without some tests and dismantling to look at stuff. If the air cleaner is very dirty or the engine bay is fairly airtight it would also case the engine to lack power and smoke. In extreme cases the engine may just die after a period of running as the air runs out but at present I think lack of air can be discounted unless someone inexperienced has been doing any soundproofing.

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I haven’t read all the above tonight so someone may have asked previously 

have you turned  The prop out of gear  NO. Engine running  it should turn with only a small resistance  If it’s too tight a bearing could be seizing 

then in gear and see if there is any crunching rattling 
 

The other thing if it had no oil in the engine the bearings could be seizing And that’s why it will not rev freely 

This is just my idea and throwing it open the the menu  on here 

Graham

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Just now, jacko264 said:

I haven’t read all the above tonight so someone may have asked previously 

have you turned  The prop out of gear  NO. Engine running  it should turn with only a small resistance  If it’s too tight a bearing could be seizing 

then in gear and see if there is any crunching rattling 
 

The other thing if it had no oil in the engine the bearings could be seizing And that’s why it will not rev freely 

This is just my idea and throwing it open the the menu  on here 

Graham

That may not be the case if its DCA or DCB sun gear gearbox. Its unlikely but who knows.

 

Just wondering of the rattle going into gear could be loose engine mounts or some such. If the engine has dropped it would create friction on the shaft and I have heard of at least one shaft seizing because of it but again it all depends upon the stern gear..

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5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

That may not be the case if its DCA or DCB sun gear gearbox. Its unlikely but who knows.

 

Tony, you have suggested and discussed far more than necessary - you cannot help those who will not help themselves.

 

How many times do you (we) try and 'problem solve' by internet and such words as "the engine smokes" or "the batteries are flat" is all there is to go on.

 

When asked for photographs or more detailed information (gear box type, engine type, cooling type etc etc) it is not forthcoming.

 

I don't think I could ever have the patience that you show in the face of such a lack of information despite repeated requests.

 

Keep up the good work.

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Well. Heather  it looks like you are going to  have to get down and get mucky  and Check all the above message 😳

Edited by jacko264
Missed a it

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8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Tony, you have suggested and discussed far more than necessary - you cannot help those who will not help themselves.

 

How many times do you (we) try and 'problem solve' by internet and such words as "the engine smokes" or "the batteries are flat" is all there is to go on.

 

When asked for photographs or more detailed information (gear box type, engine type, cooling type etc etc) it is not forthcoming.

 

I don't think I could ever have the patience that you show in the face of such a lack of information despite repeated requests.

 

Keep up the good work.

It passes time trying to guess what it could be  😎😀

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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Tony, you have suggested and discussed far more than necessary - you cannot help those who will not help themselves.

 

How many times do you (we) try and 'problem solve' by internet and such words as "the engine smokes" or "the batteries are flat" is all there is to go on.

 

When asked for photographs or more detailed information (gear box type, engine type, cooling type etc etc) it is not forthcoming.

 

I don't think I could ever have the patience that you show in the face of such a lack of information despite repeated requests.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

My view is that my "job" is to try to educate and its not the poster's fault that they do not understand much about the boat/jobs done and why such questions and request for photos are important. You may have noticed I let this one go for a fair while, that was because I was getting frustrated by the lack of meaningful response. I feel sorry for the OP and fear she may have been ripped off but until I/we can eliminate potential causes I/we can do no more. She displays a perfectly understandable lack of technical knowledge. The first thing I still want is to see this oil pipe and what its connected to, it may yet turn out to be a gearbox oil cooler, this is because she described what sounds very like diesel knock and does not mention the sort of noises you may get if you run an engine devoid of oil. I feel it may well be suffering a lack of compression but without running noises that may not be caused by piston/ring problems but with no means of checking the injectors & their fitting we are stuck.  Then there is this talk of adjusting the pump timing, The setting tools are like hens teeth so I fear it may have been done by ear and that suggest it may well be wrong. In  relation to this and in view of @Tracy D'arth's experience and the tendency of 1.5s to wear their pump drive skew gear if the oil jet and strainer are neglected for long periods without the gauge to assess the pump drive backlash it could be running well retarded. That may explain the poor starting, the smoke, and the "lovely smooth" running.

 

As Jacko above said - its time to get down and mucky or find a competent engineer and the money to pay them. I had  hoped BIZ would have a few names but it seems not. I am not sure I would be happy to recommend anyone to get into this mess.

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Tony

if it’s been run short of oil  could the knock be small ends , and big ends nipping the crank that would make it hard for the engine to turn over  and Hard to start + because the engine in working hard  when running it would blow black smoke 
I may be wrong it’s just a thought I had 

graham

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1 minute ago, jacko264 said:

Tony

if it’s been run short of oil  could the knock be small ends , and big ends nipping the crank that would make it hard for the engine to turn over  and Hard to start + because the engine in working hard  when running it would blow black smoke 
I may be wrong it’s just a thought I had 

graham

 

I agree but she says the knock goes away after a short while, I would expect small ends or big ends to get noisier as she speeds up but I would expect diesel knock to reduce as the engine warms up.. She also says it runs smoothly which I would not expect of an engine with bearing problems. I am still not completely sure it was not gearbox oil because there is no way I can identify that oil pipe without a photo.

 

As I said a while ago there are too many symptoms that counter each other.

 

You may well be correct but until I can get more information I simply can't say that you are. If I were on the boat I would turn the engine over by hand to assess how stiff it is and the compression but I doubt the OP would know what to do or how it should feel. That is why I think we have done as much as we can. She needs someone with  the experience on the spot which is what she asked about in the original post.

 

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Thank you all so much for being patient with me, I have taken some photos but not sure how to get them from my phone to here. I tried to check the gearbox oil which involves taking  the steps and floor of boat but then it i couldn't undo it as i don't have a big enough spanner. I will get my husband to have a go with some pliers next time i up to the boat. The gearbox was rattling when the boat was on the bench being tested by RCR. They said it was a gearbox fault that was causing the overheating. The gearbox works fine. A gearbox repairer looked at it on their bench and said it had a slight drag in neutral. I will recheck the prop but when the engine was installed you could turn it by hand. When the engine was first installed 2 years ago (yes this has been going on that long!) i queried the rattle from the gearbox with the installer who said it was a worn drive plate and to let RCR know in case it fails. They said it was new but the gearbox did not do rattle on the old engine. The leak was not gearbox oil as this is red as we had this happen in the past. 

I need to see what i can try then get my friends to help me try these things. They have looked and run out of ideas.

 

pipe thumb.jpg

boat.pdf.jpg

engine thumb.jpg

injectorsthumb.jpg

Water strainer thumb.jpg

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Thanks for the photos @Heather.  Which one shows the oil pipe that fell off?

 

 

18 minutes ago, Heather said:

When the engine was first installed 2 years ago (yes this has been going on that long!) i queried the rattle from the gearbox with the installer who said it was a worn drive plate...

That sounds likely but unlikely to be your problem at present.

Edited by WotEver

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If your first picture is the pipe that came off, it looks to be the pipe to the oil pressure gauge if so it will have dumped a lot of oil and there would have been no oil pressure in the engine galleries.

This engine seems to have had the block breathers from the rocker box and the tappet chest all connected to the air filter, usually this is done because the engine is well worn and breathing heavily from the inside of the block due to piston ring blow by.

 

Deeply suspicious of this engine and the advice you had from RCR, a gearbox cannot cause an engine to overheat especially as you seem to have a mechanical gearbox with ATF oil and no oil cooler.

 

Your engine has a sealed cooling system with antifreeze/corrosion inhibitor using a heat exchanger in the  exhaust manifold to dump the heat into fresh water drawn in by a pump through a strainer pot, the plastic thing next to the engine, and probably exiting via the exhaust pipe. Over heating could be a blockage in the fresh water system, a failed pump impeller or drive belt or a fouled heat exchanger core.

Edited by Tracy D'arth

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