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Electric bike recomendations

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22 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

 

When the idea of "dockless cycle hire" was first put forward our Town Council objected as we could see this coming. But the Planning Authority (Milton Keynes) were swayed by the promise of low cost (no infrastructure to install or maintain) and convenience (finish your journey where you want and the next user see's all the nearby locations on the "App"). Such is progress...

 

The local authority has no legal powers to prevent anyone setting up a dockless cycle hire scheme. The conventional docked schemes require planning permission for the docking stations, and these are mostly on council owned land, so the authority has a fair degree of control. Not so with dockless. More likely what happened in MK is that the council entered into a voluntary agreement with the scheme operator, because this would give them a (limited) degree of control. In practice the experience of a number of local authorities has been that such agreements are pretty toothless, bikes (usable and wrecked) are abandoned all over the place, footways are obstructed, the public complain, and the local authority ends up meeting some of the costs of disposing of the abandoned bikes.

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4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

The local authority has no legal powers to prevent anyone setting up a dockless cycle hire scheme. The conventional docked schemes require planning permission for the docking stations, and these are mostly on council owned land, so the authority has a fair degree of control. Not so with dockless. More likely what happened in MK is that the council entered into a voluntary agreement with the scheme operator, because this would give them a (limited) degree of control. In practice the experience of a number of local authorities has been that such agreements are pretty toothless, bikes (usable and wrecked) are abandoned all over the place, footways are obstructed, the public complain, and the local authority ends up meeting some of the costs of disposing of the abandoned bikes.

Thanks - I hadn't appreciated that.

 

Given the amount of control over shops (retail), Taxi's and private hire, mobile street vendors etc I'd assumed there was something that could be done about allowing rental of self drive vehicles to be abandoned wherever your "customers" see fit. Looks like I was wrong.

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It will be interesting to see how it works out. Cycles were abandoned in all kinds of strange places in Manchester. It didn't take long for the youff of today to work out where the lock and GPS tracker was. They cut it out of the frame resulting in a free bike. The bikes were trully dreadful so they weren't that popular anyway and the scheme was short lived.

 

If these scooters are going to be dockless how will they be charged up for the next user?

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2 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

If these scooters are going to be dockless how will they be charged up for the next user?

Stateside at least it's another "gig economy" job. People round up scooters, throw them in their truck or car and charge them at home then put them back out ready for the next day in exchange for some cash per scooter charged. I've even seen the homeless collect them and charge them at power sockets in parks.

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I am learning Italian, and practice by reading Italian on-line newspapers. Today's "La Stampa" has a report from Milan of a collision between a hired electric scooter that swerved out of control in an underpass, colliding with a Hyundai, the scooter driver hitting the windscreen with his head before ending up on the asphalt and being taken to hospital with very serious injuries. The 8th incident in the last 48 hours and the 130th since the hire scheme started in June.  It also mentions an earlier incident where a scooter going the wrong way in a one way street, knocked down an old lady, breaking her hip. She is expected to be in hospital for 3 months to recover. 

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6 hours ago, cuthound said:

Coventry's e-scooter trial had been suspended due to people riding them on the pavements.

 

Who would have thunk that hirers wouldn't stick to the rules eh?

 

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/coventry-suspends-e-scooter-trial-after-five-days-because-of-concerns-about-pavement

On the pavement they may be arguably no more of an issue than disability scooters - it's on the road they appear truly dangerous to me. Fabulous idea in theory, and I can see real utility for boaters in particular, but the practice is going to be somewhat more problematic. Shame, because the potential is there. My guess is the idea will be implemented in some ill-considered way with unfortunate consequences - rather like opening the towpaths to unfettered cycling.

 

I do, however, think the law being that naughtiness with your electric scooter will affect your driving licence could have  wider merit across all road users, powered or unpowered. Perhaps that'll catch on?

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8 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

On the pavement they may be arguably no more of an issue than disability scooters - it's on the road they appear truly dangerous to me.

Disability scooters tend to put around at a walking pace, 3-4mph. The scooters fly down the sidewalk and across intersections at 15mph and cars aren't expecting that, so people get hit.

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7 hours ago, transplant said:

Disability scooters tend to put around at a walking pace, 3-4mph

I'm given to understand there are two classes of Disability Scooter; up to 4MPH and up to 8. The latter require number plates etc. (Mine and @magpie patrick father deliberately chose the former)

7 hours ago, transplant said:

...and cars aren't expecting that, so people get hit.

Neither are pedestrians when you step out of a shop doorway and "wheeeee" six inches in front of you

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7 hours ago, transplant said:

Disability scooters tend to put around at a walking pace, 3-4mph. The scooters fly down the sidewalk and across intersections at 15mph and cars aren't expecting that, so people get hit.

It's not just they are not expecting it - the door pillars give a blind spot, especially on the left (assuming RHD car) that doesn't matter if someone approaches the carriageway edge at walking speed, but does matter if they do it at 15 mph. 

4 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

I'm given to understand there are two classes of Disability Scooter; up to 4MPH and up to 8. The latter require number plates etc. (Mine and @magpie patrick father deliberately chose the former)

Having driven it round the garden several times recently, I think it goes quite fast enough!

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1 hour ago, magpie patrick said:

Having driven it round the garden several times recently, I think it goes quite fast enough!

A few years ago the missus was at the building society when two chaps, each on a mobility buggy, were beeping their horns at each other and juggling for who should be at the front of the queue. “Road Rage in the Halifax!” observed the missus. 

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1 hour ago, 1st ade said:

I'm given to understand there are two classes of Disability Scooter; up to 4MPH and up to 8. The latter require number plates etc. 

Craziest rule in the highway code award goes to .............

 

The class 3 scooter (8mph one) can be used on dual carriageways, where the speed limit is above 50mph they must display a flashing amber beacon. 😲

 

Rule 46

These vehicles MUST NOT be used on motorways (see Rule 253). They should not be used on unrestricted dual carriageways where the speed limit exceeds 50 mph (80 km/h) but if they are used on these dual carriageways, they MUST have a flashing amber beacon. A flashing amber beacon should be used on all other dual carriageways (see Rule 220).

 

 

 

From the Brighton Argus,

 

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/10335753.tourist-takes-a-mystery-tour-on-mobility-scooter/

Edited by waterdog
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1 hour ago, waterdog said:

They should not be used on unrestricted dual carriageways where the speed limit exceeds 50 mph (80 km/h) but if they are used on these dual carriageways...

Is it just poorly worded or does it really mean that you ‘must not do this, but if you do...’ ?


And what does the last sentence mean in the context of the preceding?


Okay, so I went to the Gov site to read what is actually written and that makes far more sense:

 

These small vehicles travel at a maximum speed of 8 mph (12 km/h). On a dual carriageway where the speed limit exceeds 50 mph (80 km/h) they MUST have a flashing amber beacon, but on other roads you may not have that advance warning (see Rules 36 to 46 inclusive).

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11 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Is it just poorly worded or does it really mean that you ‘must not do this, but if you do...’ ?

In the shadow world of Government contracts that I inhabit sometimes the definitions are spelled out in plain language: -

SHOULD NOT

This phrase, or the phrase "NOT RECOMMENDED" mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances when the particular behavior is acceptable or even useful, but the full implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed before implementing any behavior described with this label

MUST

This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.

 

Means that a rider of an 8MPH scooter should think long and hard and consider the consequences of joining a dual carriageway and if they do must have an orange flashing light displayed.

 

I'd think very hard about being on a road with no escape until the next junction and a speed differential of 62 MPH (worst case) with or without an orange flashing light...

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On 14/09/2020 at 10:54, David Mack said:

 

The local authority has no legal powers to prevent anyone setting up a dockless cycle hire scheme. 

I'm not convinced that's true - these were trial schemes of which MK was one, and the hire was only legal in trial areas so MK may have had the option to not be a trial area

That said MK is well laid out for cycling (the new town area is at any rate) so I can see the temptation to give it a go

 

One of the oddities of the trial was that, because the scooters were still not road legal (or even pavement legal) during the trials then riding a hire scooter on the highway was legal but riding your own was not...

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Possibly the hire charge incliudes third party insurance? In France, I believe that  the legal situation is that anyone riding, on the public highway,  an electric scooter capable of speeds greater than a brisk walking pace  (I think 6km/hr)  is obliged to have third party insurance.  How well this is enforced I have no idea. 

Edited by Ronaldo47
Typo

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2 hours ago, WotEver said:

Is it just poorly worded or does it really mean that you ‘must not do this, but if you do...’ ?


And what does the last sentence mean in the context of the preceding?


Okay, so I went to the Gov site to read what is actually written and that makes far more sense:

 

These small vehicles travel at a maximum speed of 8 mph (12 km/h). On a dual carriageway where the speed limit exceeds 50 mph (80 km/h) they MUST have a flashing amber beacon, but on other roads you may not have that advance warning (see Rules 36 to 46 inclusive).

The highway code is littered with the phrases "should not" and "must not", "must not " being law and "should not" being advisory (ish).

Ignoring a "should not" while not illegal in itself  could still be used against you in court.

 

More here - https://driversmocktest.com/uk-highway-code-wording-explained/

 

So for rule 46

These vehicles MUST NOT be used on motorways (see Rule 253).   (This part is law)

 

They should not be used on unrestricted dual carriageways where the speed limit exceeds 50 mph (80 km/h) (This part advice.)

 

but if they are used on these dual carriageways, they MUST have a flashing amber beacon. (and law again)

 

A flashing amber beacon should be used on all other dual carriageways (see Rule 220). (and back to advice)

 

 

 

 

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On 16/09/2020 at 10:03, cuthound said:

Coventry's e-scooter trial had been suspended due to people riding them on the pavements.

 

Who would have thunk that hirers wouldn't stick to the rules eh?

 

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/coventry-suspends-e-scooter-trial-after-five-days-because-of-concerns-about-pavement

 

I see that the e-scooters for hire are to be fitted with registration plates to help identify miscreants. A small step in therightdirection that could usefully be extended to all road users except pedestrians.

 

https://www.taxi-point.co.uk/post/e-scooter-firm-announces-the-use-of-front-back-licence-plates-after-misuse-forced-suspension

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There is one in cashconvertors,  worksop £800

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On 17/09/2020 at 01:19, transplant said:

Disability scooters tend to put around at a walking pace, 3-4mph.

Depending on the 'driver'. Disability scooters can easily do 8 mph which is pretty terrifying in the hands of an elderly person who never learnt to drive.

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A few years ago when contemplating getting one for my father-in-law, we tried out some disability scooters at a local stockist. Some were certainly nippy. The guy said they had supplied scooters to the Lakeside shopping centre in Essex, and had soon been asked to modify them to reduce their top speed to 4mph due to the number of speed-related incidents.

Edited by Ronaldo47
Typo

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