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It's most important for people to reply to this 'consultation - rather than letting someone else do the work for them.

It will be used to collect numbers rather than listen to individuals -thus mebe don't spend ages trying to put a reasoned argument.

 

Having said that - last time the issue was raised (before the current scheme went live) I was contacted by a senior officer at HMRC and he did listen to my comments, whihc may have helped with the scheme that we now have.

 

I believe that it we have to use 'white' fuel :-

A number of suppliers will disappear because of the extra costs making sales less profitable

As above but having stocks of taxed fuel accessible will encourage theft or suppliers having to spend lot of money in maing the tanks and equipment very seccure.

I can see the price of fuel rising to £2 or more per litre

Remember that the current regime that the tax pays for the upkeep of roads -DERV Diesel for Road Vehicles.

 

Don't leave it to others - respond to the consultation today...

 

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2 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

It's most important for people to reply to this 'consultation - rather than letting someone else do the work for them.

It will be used to collect numbers rather than listen to individuals -thus mebe don't spend ages trying to put a reasoned argument.

 

Having said that - last time the issue was raised (before the current scheme went live) I was contacted by a senior officer at HMRC and he did listen to my comments, whihc may have helped with the scheme that we now have.

 

I believe that it we have to use 'white' fuel :-

A number of suppliers will disappear because of the extra costs making sales less profitable

As above but having stocks of taxed fuel accessible will encourage theft or suppliers having to spend lot of money in maing the tanks and equipment very seccure.

I can see the price of fuel rising to £2 or more per litre

Remember that the current regime that the tax pays for the upkeep of roads -DERV Diesel for Road Vehicles.

 

Don't leave it to others - respond to the consultation today...

 

I may respond, but not in the way you would want.  I'm not sure I can see the justification for red diesel in boats.  If we are to meet our emmissions targets, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

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10 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I may respond, but not in the way you would want.  I'm not sure I can see the justification for red diesel in boats.  If we are to meet our emmissions targets, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

How will paying more tax help us to meet our emission targets? Are we to just use the boats less, or scrap them or leave them to rot?

If the extra revenue was going to be used to develop alternative energy systems for heating and cooking as well as propulsion then possibly justified, but it won't.

I have already invested in a potentially low emission boat (electric drive) but still need to buy diesel until a charging network exists. Nothing I can do to make that happen no matter how much tax I pay.

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15 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I may respond, but not in the way you would want.  I'm not sure I can see the justification for red diesel in boats.  If we are to meet our emmissions targets, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

And in the current absence of any realistic alternative means of propulsion, what are you going to do to motor your boat? As has already been pointed out, red is coloured white diesel.

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24 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Does't matter what colour the diesel is the emissions will be the same as its the same fuel just different colour. 

Exactly, and the Government already has legislation in place that all new ships for UK waters ordered from 2025 should be designed with zero-emission capable technologies. No diesel engine boats may be built after 2035 and no diesel engine boats may be used, (on inland or coastal waters) after 2050

 

Anything we do now is just a short term 'sop' to try and appease the environmentalists, but as has been said "red is just white with a dye" so why should anyone spend £10,000's putting in new infrastructure to be able to supply 'white' with such a short term payback, particularly when the retailers are typically only making 4p (before tax) per litre on fuel sales

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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6 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

I note that the removal of red diesel is the one, single, thing done to us by the EU that's unequivocally not in boater's interests and , irony of ironies, it's now being taken away anyway by the British government. Can anybody explain, now the "we" can make "our own" laws why "we" are not listening to ourselves?

 

A suitable rendition of Won't get fooled again by The Who, may be accepted as an answer. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

 

An admission that you're all mugs, and you've been done over again by the Old Etonians and psychopaths in the Tory party would be good too, when you have a moment away from practising your forelock-tugging.

 

MP.

 

From an environmental point of view, it may cause people to use a little less fuel because of the hike in price. 

 

In the case of the EU, it's a case of the new boss (the EU) being worse than the old boss. The fools, in your interpretation, have lessened the pit of politicians and bureaucracy we have to deal with, but haven't eliminated the breed; it's slightly more manageable, from an electorate's point of view.  

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Rick-n-Jo said:

How will paying more tax help us to meet our emission targets? Are we to just use the boats less, or scrap them or leave them to rot?

If the extra revenue was going to be used to develop alternative energy systems for heating and cooking as well as propulsion then possibly justified, but it won't.

I have already invested in a potentially low emission boat (electric drive) but still need to buy diesel until a charging network exists. Nothing I can do to make that happen no matter how much tax I pay.

 

35 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Does't matter what colour the diesel is the emissions will be the same as its the same fuel just different colour. 

If the diesel is more expensive it will discourage use. This is basic use of a tax to discourage use, as has applied to many things such as tobacco and alcohol.  We are used to diesel at around 80p per litre, we might think twice about a weekend jaunt on the boat if the diesel is 140p thereby reducing emissions.

 

Edited by Alway Swilby

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31 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Does't matter what colour the diesel is the emissions will be the same as its the same fuel just different colour. 

Taxation has long been used to incentivise certain behaviours.  This is no different.

 

Anyway, I've just submitted my response.  I have asked that private boats be exempted.  Overall, I think the harm which would be done by increasing costs borne by the poorest liveaboard boaters would outweight the environmental benefits.  However, The general thrust of the changes; to encourage industry to move away from diesel burning, is something I approve of.

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41 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Remember that the current regime that the tax pays for the upkeep of roads -DERV Diesel for Road Vehicles.

 

Not since 1936! The duty collected on fuel goes into the general government revenue pot, which funds a whole range of government spending (including spending on roads).

 

The Road Fund was set up in 1920 with the income from the Road Fund Licence dedicated to road building (not upkeep), although some of the money was spent on other things. In 1936 the Road Fund  Licence income was diverted directly to the Exchequer and the Road Fund Licence itself was abolished in 1955.

 

Funny how the old chestnuts still persist!

 

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2 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

 

If the diesel is more expensive it will discourage use. This is basic use of a tax to discourage use as has applied to many things such as tobacco and alcohol.  We are used to diesel at around 80p per litre, we might think twice about a weekend jaunt on the boat if the diesel is 140p thereby reducing emissions.

 

Where do you get a 60/40 split at 80p a litre?  Just sayin....😉

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1 minute ago, Alway Swilby said:

 

If the diesel is more expensive it will discourage use. This is basic use of a tax to discourage use as has applied to many things such as tobacco and alcohol.  We are used to diesel at around 80p per litre, we might think twice about a weekend jaunt on the boat if the diesel is 140p thereby reducing emissions.

 

The price we are currently paying for 'propulsion' fuel (which is the majority of usage) is already similar to (or higher) than 'road' white diesel, I don't see the price issue as being relevant it will simply mean that the way we buy and source diesel will change. A typical NB probably only uses a 'couple of Jerry-Cans' a week so its not that difficult to get road-fuel cheaper than the 'red' that we are paying full tax on.

 

A bike and small trailer a couple of jerry cans and you are sorted.

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I predict that what will happen in the end is that canalside sellers will still sell red, but that they will be forced to charge based on a government determined split.  Then the government will get to look all magnanimous and boaters will have to grudgingly accept it, or they risk showing up that they've been lying on their declarations for years!

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10 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Where do you get a 60/40 split at 80p a litre?  Just sayin....😉

You are right of course. But I wonder how many people actually do declare a 60/40 split. The current system is wide open to abuse.

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The price we are currently paying for 'propulsion' fuel (which is the majority of usage) is already similar to (or higher) than 'road' white diesel, I don't see the price issue as being relevant it will simply mean that the way we buy and source diesel will change. A typical NB probably only uses a 'couple of Jerry-Cans' a week so its not that difficult to get road-fuel cheaper than the 'red' that we are paying full tax on.

 

A bike and small trailer a couple of jerry cans and you are sorted.

Yes, but I wonder how many people can hand on heart say that they religiously declare all the fuel they use for propulsion.

Edited by Alway Swilby

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Just now, MoominPapa said:

 

A conservative government with a 80 majority and a taste for populist manipulation and outright lying is more constrained than the European commission which has to bring 27 national governments along? Keep believing. How are you getting on with the all-powerful unelected Mr Cummings?

 

Maybe Brexit will be the first revolution in history not to be hijacked by self-serving shysters. I'm not holding my breath.

 

MP.

 

Leaving the EU is not quite like flipping a switch, Why you should expect perfection, I don't know. Leaving the EU, from my perspective, was a move to remove uncontrolled layers of bureaucracy; the electorate was being marginalised. But what we have now will require some refashioning over time.  

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

You are right of course. But I wonder how many people actually do declare a 60/40 split. The current system is wide open to abuse.

Yes, but I wonder how many people can hand on heart say that they religiously declare all the fuel they use for propulsion.

Then those are cheating and deserve to pay full price.

 

Proposals :

 

5.35 Following discussions with craft users and fuel suppliers during the consultation, the government will decide when to remove the entitlement to use red diesel for propulsion, and will set out further details in due course.

 

5.36 Regardless of when private pleasure craft users need to start using white diesel for propulsion, they will remain entitled to use red diesel for nonpropulsion uses, such as for heating, and lighting and powering appliances such as fridges via a battery charged using red diesel (provided they have a separate fuel tank for this purpose). If they have only one fuel tank on board their craft, they will need to use white diesel.

 

5.37 As committed to at Budget 2020, the government has been exploring options to prevent users of private pleasure craft with only one fuel tank on board for propulsion and non-propulsion having to pay a higher rate of duty on their non-propulsion use of diesel than they currently pay.

 

5.38 The government is considering introducing a new relief scheme where approved fuel suppliers would be able to deduct from the sale price the duty difference on the proportion of white diesel intended for non-propulsion use. The fuel suppliers would then reclaim this deducted duty from HMRC and reflect this in the price charged to the private pleasure craft user at the point of sale.

 

5.39 Analysis by both the industry and HMRC previously suggested that a split of 60% for propulsion and 40% for non-propulsion use probably reflected most crafts’ typical fuel use. The government would welcome views on whether this apportionment remains typical, with supporting evidence.

 

5.40 The government would also welcome views on whether the relief should be a fixed percentage or whether it should be capped at a maximum percentage. A fixed percentage would mean a written declaration from craft users of how they use their fuel would not be required and it should make it slightly easier for fuel suppliers to work out the duty that needs to be deducted from the sale price and compile all the claims for HMRC. A relief capped at a maximum percentage would allow craft users to more accurately reflect the amount of diesel they intend to use for non-propulsion. This would necessitate a written declaration from the craft user to the fuel supplier on how they intended to use each tank of fuel (which would need to be made available to HMRC on request), although craft users could lodge a standing declaration with any supplier where they were a regular customer to save them making new declarations each time they refuelled.

 

If the bank-side sellers (fuel boats etc) can use their existing equipment (hence no on-costs) then the price of the fuel to the boater should not change.

 

We had all these discussions in threads a few weeks ago when the consultation was announced.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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My reading of the proposal is that MGO or 'Red'  will disappear from the market (except for agriculture and those very, very few who use Gas Oil for house heating).

That makes canalside resellers more vulnerable to theft / damage to equipment and that may discourage them selling fuel at all.

 

That's my principal concern. I don't want to see folks filling their boats' tanks from cans as it increases the risk  of pollution.

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6 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Leaving the EU is not quite like flipping a switch, Why you should expect perfection, I don't know. Leaving the EU, from my perspective, was a move to remove uncontrolled layers of bureaucracy; the electorate was being marginalised. But what we have now will require some refashioning over time.  

 

 

In this case, I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be "flipping a switch". The UK government had a derogation for years from the EU rule to allow red diesel in boats. When that came to an end they made it very clear that they didn't want to change, and were being forced to by the EU. There can be not reason no to return to the status quo ante, except if 1) all the stuff about "we don't want to tax you, the nasty EU made us" was bollocks, and 2) we don't actually have any more control over the people making our laws than we did. The downside to Brexit are obvious, I can't see much evidence of "by the people, for the people" in return for them As I said, better keep believing, the alternative is realising you've been conned.

 

I think we should stop discussing politics on someone else's thread now.

 

MP.

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28 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

You are right of course. But I wonder how many people actually do declare a 60/40 split. The current system is wide open to abuse.

Yes, but I wonder how many people can hand on heart say that they religiously declare all the fuel they use for propulsion.

I always declare something.  Turning up at a canalside seller and declaring 100% domestic is ridiculous and leaves you wide open for investigation.  Having said that,  I've seen that more than half of boaters do declare 100% domestic, so it's hardly surprising that governement/hmrc want to crack down on this.  Boaters can look to themselves for blame. 

 

Sorry to be a pain, but the money raised from white diesel duty goes into general taxation, which then funds things like the NHS you've been clapping for, and provides grant funding to CRT

Edited by doratheexplorer

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1 minute ago, MoominPapa said:

In this case, I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be "flipping a switch". The UK government had a derogation for years from the EU rule to allow red diesel in boats. When that came to an end they made it very clear that they didn't want to change, and were being forced to by the EU. There can be not reason no to return to the status quo ante, except if 1) all the stuff about "we don't want to tax you, the nasty EU made us" was bollocks, and 2) we don't actually have any more control over the people making our laws than we did. The downside to Brexit are obvious, I can't see much evidence of "by the people, for the people" in return for them As I said, better keep believing, the alternative is realising you've been conned.

 

I think we should stop discussing politics on someone else's thread now.

 

MP.

 

Your focus is on red diesel/white diesel, which isn't strange, this thread is about that subject. You brought the EU into it and wished to criticise the whole thrust of leaving the EU on the basis of the red diesel subject. I don't mind not mentioning the leaving, if you will not try and use this thread to sweep all about leaving the EU into a tiny box for red diesel grumbles. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Higgs said:

 

Your focus is on red diesel/white diesel, which isn't strange, this thread is about that subject. You brought the EU into it and wished to criticise the whole thrust of leaving the EU on the basis of the red diesel subject. I don't mind not mentioning the leaving, if you will not try and use this thread to sweep all about leaving the EU into a tiny box for red diesel grumbles. 

 

 

Fair point, except I remember hearing boaters saying they'd voted leave specifically to keep red diesel.

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2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Fair point, except I remember hearing boaters saying they'd voted leave specifically to keep red diesel.

 

I have no doubt, some of them did. A facet. 

 

 

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