Overheating Beta 43

[Dr Bob]

5 minutes ago, Detling said:

Is it possible some oil escaped onto the hot engine bits whilst it was being changed. This would cause a hot oil smell but the engine would be fine.

Yep, it really asks the question if the temperature is too high.

"Something went wrong after my wife went down the engine hole" - On a beta43 that probably means the connector on the wiring loom was dislodged!!!!!

Whilst that may cause an alarm to go off or a light to flash - but not sure how that affects a temperature gauge. Still that beta 43 wiring loom is wonder to behold and it wouldnt surprise me  if that was the case.

Buy an infrequent red thermometer and test the temperature. On my Beta43 the top of the header tank ran about 70-75deg C. You will soon know if you have a problem.

[mrsmelly]

19 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Yep, it really asks the question if the temperature is too high.

"Something went wrong after my wife went down the engine hole" - On a beta43 that probably means the connector on the wiring loom was dislodged!!!!!

Whilst that may cause an alarm to go off or a light to flash - but not sure how that affects a temperature gauge. Still that beta 43 wiring loom is wonder to behold and it wouldnt surprise me  if that was the case.

Buy an infrequent red thermometer and test the temperature. On my Beta43 the top of the header tank ran about 70-75deg C. You will soon know if you have a problem.

My wife wouldnt even know where the engine is fitted!! Wives are handy pieces of equipment for all manner of things, cooking, washing, cleaning, lockwheeling and pastime events but not for steering narrowboats or indeed being allowed near engines!!

[Tony Brooks]

20 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Yep, it really asks the question if the temperature is too high.

"Something went wrong after my wife went down the engine hole" - On a beta43 that probably means the connector on the wiring loom was dislodged!!!!!

Whilst that may cause an alarm to go off or a light to flash - but not sure how that affects a temperature gauge. Still that beta 43 wiring loom is wonder to behold and it wouldnt surprise me  if that was the case.

Buy an infrequent red thermometer and test the temperature. On my Beta43 the top of the header tank ran about 70-75deg C. You will soon know if you have a problem.

 

Typically the connector would cause an open resistive connection. On a temperature gauge and/or sounder that would case no or a low reading. It would need a short circuit to negative to cause a high reading. Although often the problem in this case I would relegate it a bit in the fault finding check list.

[Bee]

My Beta 43 has the most basic instrument panel so I fitted a separate temp gauge myself. Last summer the thing declared it was overheating and we crept along the river Marne for about an hour till we could tie safely. I took out the tube stack in the heat exch, poked wire through the holes, cleared out mud and weed, checked the impeller, fiddled with the filter, poked wire through the raw water inlet, stuck it all back together - exactly the same, still overheating. Finally checked the wiring at the back of the gauge to find the fool who fitted it had not tightened the little nuts up properly, 30 seconds of work with the pliers  and the thing declared it was not overheating at all and never had been.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Bee said:

My Beta 43 has the most basic instrument panel so I fitted a separate temp gauge myself. Last summer the thing declared it was overheating and we crept along the river Marne for about an hour till we could tie safely. I took out the tube stack in the heat exch, poked wire through the holes, cleared out mud and weed, checked the impeller, fiddled with the filter, poked wire through the raw water inlet, stuck it all back together - exactly the same, still overheating. Finally checked the wiring at the back of the gauge to find the fool who fitted it had not tightened the little nuts up properly, 30 seconds of work with the pliers  and the thing declared it was not overheating at all and never had been.

That would have been a loose negative connection then, but can't see how that would cause the buzzer to sound.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[Bee]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

That would have been a loose negative connection then.

Yep, I positively felt negative about my original workmanship.

[frahkn]

Thanks for all the advice, I’ll try to deal with each of the points:-

 

The coolant level was checked and is ok.

The belt driving the water pump is good.

There is no shut off valve to the skin tank but access is poor to the pipes and hopeless to the tank.

I plan to replace the thermostat as soon as I can get one and a gasket. Could run without but I’m worried about not replacing the gasket.

Our infra-red thermometer showed about 75 degrees at the integral header tank but 85 ate the pipe leading away from the thermostat. I was not there and my wife was reluctant to continue running the engine while the alarm was on.

It could indeed be the sensor.

I have owned the boat for nearly seven years, it has never run hot even on rivers. It uses no oil (or water) between 250 hour services. It was last out for 3 weeks in January but the engine was run for an hour or so last month.

There is no separate header tank.

The bilge is dry and clean - the engine is in an engine room with good access.

It is an Orion and access to the skin tank (12 feet from the engine) is bad. I really hope it is not an airlock.

[peterboat]

15 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Unlikely to be the stat, seen too many removed for no good reason. Modern wax stats fail open usually. Air lock most likely, I have seen header tanks that are marginal size to cope with the expansion which cease to circulate if they lose another half pint. Soon as the exhaust gets hot they steam up and lose more water.

TD'

Changed hundred of stats all failed closed, never had one fail open

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Changed hundred of stats all failed closed, never had one fail open

Depends how old they are. Bellows types always fail closed. Waxstats used to have clips so if they overheated (so the wax came out) the clips would lock them open but more modern designs seem to have  done away with that feature so now waxstats will eventually fail closed.

[frahkn]

15 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Changed hundred of stats all failed closed, never had one fail open

As you can imagine, I am eager to believe it is not an airlock in the skin tank. I have had the boat 7 years and have never seen the skin tank.

 

Can anyone suggest how such an airlock could develop in three weeks without any noticeable drop in the level in the header tank?

[Tracy D'arth]

19 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Changed hundred of stats all failed closed, never had one fail open

 

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

Depends how old they are. Bellows types always fail closed. Waxstats used to have clips so if they overheated (so the wax came out) the clips would lock them open but more modern designs seem to have  done away with that feature so now waxstats will eventually fail closed.

Seems we are all right, makes a change!

 

Thermostats - Stant

www.stant.com › consumer-products › thermostats › faqs

 

1.  
2.  

Does Stant have a fail safe thermostat? All thermostats will fail in either a closed or open position; there is no such thing as a thermostat that will fail in a “safe” position. Although some brands may claim a thermostat fails in a safe position, it simply locks itself open while it is in a full stroke open position.

 

 

TD'

[Tony Brooks]

47 minutes ago, frahkn said:

Thanks for all the advice, I’ll try to deal with each of the points:-

 

The coolant level was checked and is ok.

The belt driving the water pump is good.

There is no shut off valve to the skin tank but access is poor to the pipes and hopeless to the tank.

I plan to replace the thermostat as soon as I can get one and a gasket. Could run without but I’m worried about not replacing the gasket.

Our infra-red thermometer showed about 75 degrees at the integral header tank but 85 ate the pipe leading away from the thermostat. I was not there and my wife was reluctant to continue running the engine while the alarm was on.

It could indeed be the sensor.

I have owned the boat for nearly seven years, it has never run hot even on rivers. It uses no oil (or water) between 250 hour services. It was last out for 3 weeks in January but the engine was run for an hour or so last month.

There is no separate header tank.

The bilge is dry and clean - the engine is in an engine room with good access.

It is an Orion and access to the skin tank (12 feet from the engine) is bad. I really hope it is not an airlock.

 

If the thermometer readings are correct  then the gauge must have been reading incorrectly. That implies the sender is/was faulty and that is not uncommon (providing the negative on the gauge is tight) . The thermostat is likely to be around the 82 degrees so the readings look OK.

 

I note that you have not mentioned bleeding the skin tank. Quiet apart from the problem its a good thing to do at the start of the season.

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, frahkn said:

As you can imagine, I am eager to believe it is not an airlock in the skin tank. I have had the boat 7 years and have never seen the skin tank.

 

Can anyone suggest how such an airlock could develop in three weeks without any noticeable drop in the level in the header tank?

 

Not in just over three weeks but over time I can. There are several potential causes as below:

 

1. Air dissolved in the water used for filling comes out of the liquid as it is heated and gradually builds up. Think about a glass of water stood in a sunny window.

 

2. gases caused by internal corrosion gradually build up. Antifreeze should go a fair way to combat this.

 

3. Very minor leaks in the head gasket allows combustion gasses to gradually build up.

[Midnight]

10 minutes ago, frahkn said:

 

Can anyone suggest how such an airlock could develop in three weeks without any noticeable drop in the level in the header tank?

The air replaces the water so the header tank always looks full. Check the pipe from the radiator cap boss I used to put it into a plastic bottle. There must be a vent on the skin tank when you get to it - mine is a valve I used to just lift the lever and let the air out, then the header tank would empty

[Tony Brooks]

The only time you do not need to vent a skin tank as routine is when the skin tank either has the header tank directly above it and is connected by a vertical filling pipe or if the top of the tank has an upward running vent hose ending at a remote header tank. Both not very common but maybe more common on hire boats.

[Midnight]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

The only time you do not need to vent a skin tank as routine is when the skin tank either has the header tank directly above it and is connected by a vertical filling pipe or if the top of the tank has an upward running vent hose ending at a remote header tank. Both not very common but maybe more common on hire boats.

Is it worth the effort to add a vertical header tank piped direct from the top of the skin tank? Does the header tank need to be one of those with a radiator cap?

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Midnight said:

Is it worth the effort to add a vertical header tank piped direct from the top of the skin tank? Does the header tank need to be one of those with a radiator cap?

No, not worth the effort as long as you can get to the tank bleed point. Its not onerous to vent it each spring or if you hit a problem.

 

Yes the header tank would ned to be pressurised unless the whole system ran unpressurised. If it was not the pressure would force a lot of coolant out of the tank and into the unpressurised header tank.

[Midnight]

20 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

No, not worth the effort as long as you can get to the tank bleed point. Its not onerous to vent it each spring or if you hit a problem.

 

Yes the header tank would ned to be pressurised unless the whole system ran unpressurised. If it was not the pressure would force a lot of coolant out of the tank and into the unpressurised header tank.

Thank you 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Depends how old they are. Bellows types always fail closed. Waxstats used to have clips so if they overheated (so the wax came out) the clips would lock them open but more modern designs seem to have  done away with that feature so now waxstats will eventually fail closed.

 

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

 

Seems we are all right, makes a change!

 

Thermostats - Stant

www.stant.com › consumer-products › thermostats › faqs

 

1.  
2.  

Does Stant have a fail safe thermostat? All thermostats will fail in either a closed or open position; there is no such thing as a thermostat that will fail in a “safe” position. Although some brands may claim a thermostat fails in a safe position, it simply locks itself open while it is in a full stroke open position.

 

 

TD'

The clips that Tony refer to seem to fall off in use so maybe thats why they were deleted? I used to service and repair gennies then latterly had a garage so theo only open stats I have seen is when the center part has fell out and is in the cover/hose /rad! old age I suspect, they are inherently reliable but do fail

[frahkn]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If the thermometer readings are correct  then the gauge must have been reading incorrectly. That implies the sender is/was faulty and that is not uncommon (providing the negative on the gauge is tight) . The thermostat is likely to be around the 82 degrees so the readings look OK.

 

I note that you have not mentioned bleeding the skin tank. Quiet apart from the problem its a good thing to do at the start of the season.

Tony,

 

If I had been present I would have run the engine for a little longer to see if it got hotter or started to smell but understandably, my wife was reluctant to do this. It will be several weeks before I can get to the boat.

 

Orions are noted for eccentricities in their build, so I am told.

 

My boat is a 70' trad with the engine room 12 to 15 feet from the back. The skin tank appears to be (I have never actually seen it) at the rear on the port side. So it is hidden by the boatman's stove and by the full height cupboards in the back cabin. There may be some access below the floor but not without removing a lot of woodwork. To be honest it probably has not been bled since it was made, 17 years ago. Certainly I have not touched it in my 7 years of ownership.

 

I don't winterise for this reason, I pay for heaters instead.

[Tony Brooks]

28 minutes ago, frahkn said:

Tony,

 

If I had been present I would have run the engine for a little longer to see if it got hotter or started to smell but understandably, my wife was reluctant to do this. It will be several weeks before I can get to the boat.

 

Orions are noted for eccentricities in their build, so I am told.

 

My boat is a 70' trad with the engine room 12 to 15 feet from the back. The skin tank appears to be (I have never actually seen it) at the rear on the port side. So it is hidden by the boatman's stove and by the full height cupboards in the back cabin. There may be some access below the floor but not without removing a lot of woodwork. To be honest it probably has not been bled since it was made, 17 years ago. Certainly I have not touched it in my 7 years of ownership.

 

I don't winterise for this reason, I pay for heaters instead.

I don't see the need to winterise a dry exhaust tank or keel cooled engine because the on;y water in it's system should contain antifreeze. Its a different matter with any system that has any raw water associated with it. In latter years I never winterised my boat and never  used heaters. Its a risk with the domestic system but not for the engine.

 

Orion are not known for being complete numpties so I would suspect thee is a way of bleeding the skin tank or its piped i such a way it does not need bleeding. However most boats with vertical skin tanks do ned a way of getting air/gas out of the tank. Could your skin tank be horizontal below the engine?

 

 

[frahkn]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I don't see the need to winterise a dry exhaust tank or keel cooled engine because the on;y water in it's system should contain antifreeze. Its a different matter with any system that has any raw water associated with it. In latter years I never winterised my boat and never  used heaters. Its a risk with the domestic system but not for the engine.

 

Orion are not known for being complete numpties so I would suspect thee is a way of bleeding the skin tank or its piped i such a way it does not need bleeding. However most boats with vertical skin tanks do ned a way of getting air/gas out of the tank. Could your skin tank be horizontal below the engine?

 

 

Thanks Tony,

 

When putting the current boatman's stove in (I had to change the original) I spotted a large-bore metal pipe just disappearing into the floor. I have always assumed that this is going to (or coming from) the skin tank.

 

There is definitely nothing under the engine as I had this moved (into the centre of the floor) two years ago. Despite not being numpties, Orion had originally put the engine in the bathroom, at the foot of the bath, hard against the port side. There was no access to the starter motor etc.

 

Anyway it's good to know that there are skin tanks which do not need to be bled. Crossed fingers mine is one of them.

Edited July 13, 2020 by frahkn

[Alway Swilby]

I had an overheating problem on my Beta 43 coming upststream on the Thames last October. There was a bit of a flow on and I was running at about 2000 revs. I've previously never had any overheating issues whilst punching the tide (as you do) on both the Rivers Douglas and Ribble on the Ribble Link when I was running at about 2200 revs. I also had no problems on the tidal Trent. The boat was then about 2.5 years old. with about 2700 hours on the clock. RCR chap took out the thermostat and said get a new thermostat and you'll be ok. The next day, on the next reach of the Thames above Abingdon it continued to overheat. The problem turned out to be a load of rusty, flakey crud caught in the guaze inside the bell housing where the cool water outlet pipe from the skin tank joins back onto the engine on the oil cooler. Here's a picture.

 

 

Once all that was cleared out all was fine.   I've no idea where it came from though. One day, before any future tidal passage I'll take that housing off again and check it's clear. However that means dumping another load of coolant down into the bilge to be hoovered up and thrown away. (By the way, what do you do with old bilge contaminated anti-freeze?)

 

[Keeping Up]

37 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

The problem turned out to be a load of rusty, flakey crud caught in the guaze inside the bell housing where the cool water outlet pipe from the skin tank joins back onto the engine on the oil cooler. Here's a picture

Interesting. To confirm, is that the water input to the gearbox oil cooler? I didn't know there was a gauze there - although as my gearbox oil cooler has been fitted remotely from that, up at the front of the engine, mine just might be different.

 

Another point that people may need to be aware of, although it's not relevant to the OP's post here, is that the Beta engines are only rated for 30 minutes at full power. For longer periods of hard running you must back off by at least 10%. When my Beta was installed I was uncertain whether my skin tank has baffles (it turns out that it does) so I took it for a hard run up the Trent to check that it didn't overheat. After half an hour, although the water temperature didn't significantly increase, the oil pressure started to fall so I contacted Beta and that is how I found out about this limitation.

[Tracy D'arth]

7 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

Interesting. To confirm, is that the water input to the gearbox oil cooler? I didn't know there was a gauze there - although as my gearbox oil cooler has been fitted remotely from that, up at the front of the engine, mine just might be different.

 

Another point that people may need to be aware of, although it's not relevant to the OP's post here, is that the Beta engines are only rated for 30 minutes at full power. For longer periods of hard running you must back off by at least 10%. When my Beta was installed I was uncertain whether my skin tank has baffles (it turns out that it does) so I took it for a hard run up the Trent to check that it didn't overheat. After half an hour, although the water temperature didn't significantly increase, the oil pressure started to fall so I contacted Beta and that is how I found out about this limitation.

This is a general rule with all IC engines. The cooling effect of the oil is vital to control piston temperature. Prolonged thrashing will significantly thin the oil leading to a drop in pressure.

Dry sump engines are one way around this, the oil can be cooled away from the engine with advantage.

TD'