Gerry underwood Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 I am proper confused. We used their calculator in order to work out what we would need. None the wiser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) I note no fridge or entertainment equipment in the table. If this is for a narrowboat then whatever you put on is unlikely to be enough in winter and cloudy days so I would suggest that you fit as much as you have space for and accept you will need another from of charging on occasions. Will you really have space for a minimum of 6000 Ah of lead acid batteries? How about showing us the full power audit, I think you have cut some off. Edited June 23, 2020 by Tony Brooks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterdog Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 Blooming 'eck, 6.8kw of solar !!!, I thought my 1.2kw was big Perhaps if you do a power audit and post your onboard equipment and what you expect / want from solar then people will be able to advise better and point you in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 I rather suspect the MACHINE top left is washing machine and the OP does not realise if its only used when run the engine at a decent charging revs the alternator will provide all or most of the power so t can be removed. I doubt they also realise if you use a thermostatic mixing valve to give a 40 degree fill and set the machine for a 30 degree wash most machines will not use their heaters so the plate on the back becomes meaningless. Like wise if there is a fridge in there some where that has been converted to 12V. They may be putting the annual consumption into the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry underwood Posted June 23, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 There is a mistake. TV is on for about 5 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) OK so floating cottage with no concept of off grid living - sorry but this sort of mistake is all too common. NEVER EVER use batteries to create heat so install some other form of water heating. That gets rid of your two immersion heaters. However keep them for when you are on shorepower. I can't think why you need two on a boat. Use a kettle on the gas stove unless the engine is running at charging speed. Toast under the gas grill. No need for a toaster unless on shorepower then the convince does not wreck batteries. Ditto microwave. Alternatively get a dedicated diesel power generator fitted than you can have as much electricity as you want between 8am and 8pm unless it is cocooned for silence. You watch TV 24 hours a day!!!!!! I suspect the fridge freezer consumption may turn out to be a little optimistic but it not too far out.. On a boat battery supplied electricity shoudl be considered as gold dust and conserved if at all possible. Edited June 23, 2020 by Tony Brooks 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 If this is for a narrowboat I would suggest that you give up on the idea of trying to cover all your electrical needs by solar alone because at times throughout the year you simply do not have enough roof space to allow it to happen. Put as much on the roof as you can and in high summer when it may co Yver your needs treat it as a bonus. If you don't want to buy new batteries very few weeks/months you also need some form of battery monitoring. I would suggest a decent ammeter and voltmeter plus a bit of learning. That way you will not have a fancy gauge to encourage you to destroy your batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterdog Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) Just to give you an idea of what is possible this is our set up, 240v equipment onboard, fridge, tv, satellite receiver, soundbar, freezer, washing machine, immersion heater, toaster, electric kettle, laptop, charger for power tools, printer, wifi router. 12v stuff 2 water pumps, all lighting (led), charging for 2 tablets and 2 phones, radio, Eberspaecher heating, toilet pump, shower pump Power generation, 520ah lead acid batteries that are probably down to 260ah and could do with replacing, 2kw inverter, 3kw travelpower (produces ac when engine on) + 1.2kw solar. The immersion is only used on hook up in a marina, hot water off grid is via the engine if cruising or with the diesel fired heating system. The washing machine / electric kettle / toaster only ever used with the travelpower on. (maybe possible with just engine). Otherwise as Tony said above, toast done using gas grill and the kettle on gas hob. Everything else runs quite happily via the batteries & the inverter with the solar during summer keeping the batteries charged, . We have just sat for 5 days in the middle of nowhere and only started the engine once because the missus wanted to put some washing on. In winter the engine or generator if you have one will still have to be run most days when off grid. Hope this helps. Edited June 23, 2020 by waterdog I dont have led acid batteries :) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Davis Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 How about we go back to the beginning? Before we can give you any meaningful advice we need to know a few facts: What are the current arrangements? What size battery bank do you have? Are you moored or cruising? If moored, due you have hook-up? How many of you are there? And looking at that list and with no other information: As others have said forget the immersion heaters unless you have hook up. 5 hours TV and 8 hours gaming? Really? Kettle; use the gas stove or solid fuel stove if you have one. Toaster; use the grill. Phone charger; you do it when the engine runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said: If this is for a narrowboat I would suggest that you give up on the idea of trying to cover all your electrical needs by solar alone because at times throughout the year you simply do not have enough roof space to allow it to happen. 18,000Wh is powering the immersion heater !!!!!!!!!! Surely this cannot be for a boat - a 3Kw immersion heater. Its either a wind-up, someone designing a House system, or someone who "needs some help with understanding electricity". Edited June 23, 2020 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, waterdog said: The washing machine / electric kettle / toaster only ever used with the travelpower on. (maybe possible with just engine). Otherwise as Tony said above, toast done using gas grill and the kettle on gas hob. To Gerry - still assuming that you are talking about a boat and probably a narrowboat as this is a canal forum. The Travelpower Waterdog refers to is a extra bit of kit driven from the engine and probably in addition to the two battery charging alternators. A Travelpower delivers 240V AC so you ca run things like microwaves, toasters and the washing machine (probably) when the engine is running fast enough. Edited June 23, 2020 by Tony Brooks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterdog Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 25 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said: To Gerry - still assuming that you are talking about a boat and probably a narrowboat as this is a canal forum. The Travelpower Alan refers to is a extra bit of kit driven from the engine and probably in addition to the two battery charging alternators. A Travelpower delivers 240V AC so you ca run things like microwaves, toasters and the washing machine (probably) when the engine is running fast enough. I'm not Alan, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, waterdog said: I'm not Alan, You look more like a Rover 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 31 minutes ago, waterdog said: I'm not Alan, Sorry waterdog, will edit it the forum lets me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, waterdog said: Just to give you an idea of what is possible this is our set up, 240v equipment onboard, fridge, tv, satellite receiver, soundbar, freezer, washing machine, immersion heater, toaster, electric kettle, laptop, charger for power tools, printer, wifi router. 12v stuff 2 water pumps, all lighting (led), charging for 2 tablets and 2 phones, radio, Eberspaecher heating, toilet pump, shower pump Power generation, 520ah lead acid batteries that are probably down to 260ah and could do with replacing, 2kw inverter, 3kw travelpower (produces ac when engine on) + 1.2kw solar. The immersion is only used on hook up in a marina, hot water off grid is via the engine if cruising or with the diesel fired heating system. The washing machine / electric kettle / toaster only ever used with the travelpower on. (maybe possible with just engine). Otherwise as Tony said above, toast done using gas grill and the kettle on gas hob. Everything else runs quite happily via the batteries & the inverter with the solar during summer keeping the batteries charged, . We have just sat for 5 days in the middle of nowhere and only started the engine once because the missus wanted to put some washing on. In winter the engine or generator if you have one will still have to be run most days when off grid. Hope this helps. Very similar to our setup, apart from we have 440 ah batteries and zero solar as we are plugged in at present. Dont need solar when out and about as we move every day but will fit some again next time we move as its now cheap as chips. further edit, my boat is wired so its impossible to accidentaly run the washing machine off the inverter and knacker the batteries, it only works with travel power on or off shore line. Edited June 23, 2020 by mrsmelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterdog Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 55 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: further edit, my boat is wired so its impossible to accidentaly run the washing machine off the inverter and knacker the batteries, it only works with travel power on or off shore line. Yup, same on ours. Our immersion (when cruising) can only be powered by the travelpower too but pointless switching it on as the engine will be heating the water anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGoat Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 47 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: Very similar to our setup, apart from we have 440 ah batteries and zero solar as we are plugged in at present. Dont need solar when out and about as we move every day but will fit some again next time we move as its now cheap as chips. further edit, my boat is wired so its impossible to accidentaly run the washing machine off the inverter and knacker the batteries, it only works with travel power on or off shore line. well done young Sir - What you have done is a modicum of sense - Micawber wise - to match your resources to your needs (or is it t'other way around). It escapes many folks understanding that if you're consuming power you must / should /ought to design your needs to match te power available. Most gribbles I see on here are folks who have one bit of string when it is blatantly obvious to them (if the stop first) that they need TWO bits of string - especially when said strings are a it wobbly anyway. Go back and read the salient passage in Dickens, pause and try to understand the imnplication for your boating. It's hot here...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland elsdon Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 We have a 300w immersion which only runs when boating, and when the advect has got the batteries up to charge and cut back. Even heating our tiny surcal tank, the 300w plus of heat , generated gives our alternator a hard time to keep cool. Using generated never mind stored power to heat water is hard on equipment. ( we have no choice air cooled engine and minimal room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said: You watch TV 24 hours a day!!!!!! No. He actually says he watches 2 TVs 24 hours a day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGoat Posted June 24, 2020 Report Share Posted June 24, 2020 13 hours ago, roland elsdon said: We have a 300w immersion which only runs when boating, and when the advect has got the batteries up to charge and cut back. Even heating our tiny surcal tank, the 300w plus of heat , generated gives our alternator a hard time to keep cool. Using generated never mind stored power to heat water is hard on equipment. ( we have no choice air cooled engine and minimal room. I submit that boat fitters make the mistake of fitting car type alternators ('cos they're inexpensive) rather than truck type units - which of itself impiles 24v rather than 12v. Nearly all my kit is 24V and most of it is as old as the boat - 20 years 12 hours ago, David Mack said: No. He actually says he watches 2 TVs 24 hours a day! "We" have stereo audio generally (some go the whole hog, I'm told and have 7 channel audio) so why not 2- channel TV...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry underwood Posted June 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2020 Thanks for all the helpful replies. I can see that I was over reaching my expectations of solar power. We will make the necessary adjustments and we will go for panels in the near future. For those of you that said I had no clue and needed to understand solar power/electricity....guess what? That is why I asked the question. Not the first time that certain people on here have spouted their superior views. Never known a forum quite this bad for shooting people down. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufusR Posted June 24, 2020 Report Share Posted June 24, 2020 Blimey what size is you boat ? you would need a 70 foot 12 ft 6 widebeam to even have a chance of getting that much solar on plus would need to be wired to a min 24volts or better 48 volt so what is you system ? lots of expensive solar controllers etc . Look at the cost of kits in that range on Bimble , will probably put you off . I have 1620 watts on my 60 foot narrow boat that takes up 90% of the roof with some clever packaging . Think you need to rethink you leccy usage and be a little more realistic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted June 24, 2020 Report Share Posted June 24, 2020 55 minutes ago, Gerry underwood said: . Never known a forum quite this bad for shooting people down. Hi Gary, I take it you dont do facebook then 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tony Brooks Posted June 24, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gerry underwood said: Thanks for all the helpful replies. I can see that I was over reaching my expectations of solar power. We will make the necessary adjustments and we will go for panels in the near future. For those of you that said I had no clue and needed to understand solar power/electricity....guess what? That is why I asked the question. Not the first time that certain people on here have spouted their superior views. Never known a forum quite this bad for shooting people down. If you are referring to my posts them I apologise. I don't actually see much in the way of shooting down. What I do see is yet another low post count member coming on with a question that by its nature precludes them getting a sensible answer, who has yet to tell us if its for a boat, what kind of boat or land based, and because of that might be a troll. I don't think you are a troll but have just not done much research about living on a boat. If as you imply you do not understand much about on-board electricity then do some research. It will pay massive dividends. Look at the pinned items at the top of this forums sub sections, study the course notes on my website, see if you can find The 12V Bible on line, do some forum searches looking for topics on batteries, charging, and so on. Study the Battery Primer pinned at the start of one of the sub forms. Sorry to say that unless you severely moderate your electrical equipment expectations you WILL be looking at very expensive boat keeping with the frequent or very frequent need for new batteries because you have destroyed the last set by over-discharging and under charging over a prolonged period. Either that or you will need to stayed tied to marine berth by along mains lead. If you are rich enough to select Lithium batteries and their attendant more complex charge control systems then you will go a short way to minimising the charging problems you face because lithium batteries are happy to accept all the charge you can throw at them for long periods of time. Unlike lead acid batteries that after the first half hour or so of charging start reducing the current they will accept until you run out of charging time before they are fully charged. Leaving LA batteries partially charged reduces the amount of electricity they can hold. Getting your use of electricity, the battery bank size, your method of charging, and your charging regain right so you get optimum battery life is an iterative process where you do some calculations, see the results, think about how you will achieve the results and then go back and start again with other assumptions. You are 100% correct in starting with a power audit although I would have done it in Amp hours rather than Watt hours because batteries are sized in Ah but I see no explanation of how Bimble account for alternator charging and the time running the alternator so we can't really comment on its accuracy. What we do know is that a minimum of 6000 Ah - that is 60 x 100 Ah lead acid batteries is unlikely to fit into a typical narrowboat and if you really required that number for your electrical use you would never be able to recharge them while cruising and away from mains power. I know the responses you got were probably very different from those you thought you would but if those with long experience and/or professional competency can see you are heading for problems what would you prefer them to do? Try to point out where you may be making mistakes and where your apparent expectations are unrealistic or pat you on the head and encourage you to carry on. This forum will usually do the former because we want to help and as in your case all too often vital information is withheld so it is asked for. We get questions like yours almost on a weekly basis and all to often the questioner gets upset by replies that do not try to hide the truth. Having pondered on what has been said on this thread and studied a bit please feel free to come back and ask more detailed questions or ask about something you come across but do not understand. You will have to learn to ignore the jokers though. You should also accept that some on here really do know far more than you and their views are real and hard gained expertise. If you don't want their input to your problem - for free I might add - don't ask the question Edited June 24, 2020 by Tony Brooks 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted June 24, 2020 Report Share Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Gerry underwood said: Thanks for all the helpful replies. I can see that I was over reaching my expectations of solar power. We will make the necessary adjustments and we will go for panels in the near future. For those of you that said I had no clue and needed to understand solar power/electricity....guess what? That is why I asked the question. Not the first time that certain people on here have spouted their superior views. Never known a forum quite this bad for shooting people down. If you can plan on NOT heating your hot water from your batteries (via the Immersion heater) you will make a huge step to being able to do most of what else you want to do. You will be taking 18,000 Wh out of the 26,000Wh calculation. Run the engine, boil the kettle or use a Eberspacher but NEVER try and heat water from batteries. Are you sure it is a 3000w (3Kw) immersion heater, a boat one is normally between 700w and 1200w - maybe you are using a domestic one, or maybe you looked at a domestic one to get the wattage. That whole 'spreadsheet' is very suspect - saying that you will run your immersion heater for 4 hours and it will use 12,000Wh. In reality, it will probably only run for 1 hour and once the water is up to temperature, it will switch off, as the water cools it comes back on until it is back up to temperature, repeat, repeat, repeat. Having it switched on for 4 hours will not use "4 hours of electic" Edited June 24, 2020 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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