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Cheap Narrow boat, Big project

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You wont be the first and you wont be the last to do this.

i have pics of my old boat in the dock with no cabin no bottom and only a few footings. 2 years later we had a comfy  legal safe watertight home.

 

iron and steel hull, wooden top ( no leaks), stern cabin canvased on top of ply. I saw her this year 23 years on. The back cabin is as was  when i had finished itand it was first put on in 1978. ( wood), reskinned before i put the canvas on.

 

as for skills well you have more practical ones than i did.

just make sure its safe and enjoy your dream.

 

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15 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

my old boat in the dock with no cabin no bottom and only a few footings

 

Is the expression 'Trigger's broom'?

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As has been touched on above, a survey is only required for fully comprehensive insurance - 3rd party insurance which is all that's needed to get a CRT licence does NOT require a survey. 

 

Depends on your view of risk, but I consider the risk of fire and sinking on our boat acceptably low not to bother with fully comprehensive insurance, and I'm happy that the condition and maintenance of our boat is sufficient to reduce that risk to an absolute minimum. Out of the 1000's of boats on the waterways, it's only a tiny tiny number that come to any harm. 

 

And yes, losing our boat would mean losing our home, and no we can't afford to do that, but I consider the risk to be so small that it's a risk I'm prepared to take. 

 

Good luck with your project. Boats don't generally make financial sense anyway, particularly project boats, but the satisfaction of rescuing one is worth the effort in my view. 

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Good luck with your project, it already sounds like you have the skills and know enough people to make a judgment on the viability of the boat. The regs are all online and not a complicated as some people would like to think. Its a canal boat at the end of the day, not the space shuttle.

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14 hours ago, Bee said:

I could have put it better. Ultimately a surveyor must OK a checklist but I do think that slavishly following the rules leads to many boats being boringly identical. There are probably half a dozen ways of installing that most risky of things, a solid fuel stove that are safe, compliant, and efficient. Most of them end up in the starboard front corner but halfway down the boat could be a better place ,(it works better for thermosyphon systems) or even right at the back.  Working to a checklist like the BSS can make it very easy for boatfitters, professionals and for those of us who cannot or don't want to pay other people just reproduce the same old formula. Nobody wants dangerous boats, people manage to do daft things quite well in spite of the rules but the more regulations there are the more predictable and dull the boats become.

Fire flue on PORT side is best, not in the trees when you pass an oncoming boat and centrally lengthwise heats the boat not the great outdoors.

Edited by Boater Sam

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10 hours ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

Is the expression 'Trigger's broom'?

Standard 1935  butty a bit past its sell by date. Someone had to do it. She was good for another 60 years when done. We owed her she had just failed to sink so many times  but never quite done so, in our first 11 years of living on her. She looked after us, i feel sad everytime i see her because while she is loved she is now static.

 

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6 hours ago, Narrowboat Nimrod said:

The regs are all online and not a complicated as some people would like to think. Its a canal boat at the end of the day, not the space shuttle.

 

For you to be saying that, I suspect you've never actually read the RCD and all the normative documents referred to within.

 

Yes the BSS is pretty straightforward but the RCD brings almost bewildering or overwhelming levels of complexity and bureaucracy to DIY building of a boat.

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6 hours ago, Narrowboat Nimrod said:

The regs are all online and not a complicated as some people would like to think. Its a canal boat at the end of the day,

The regs are by no means 'all on line', it costs £000's to get the regs,

You could view them at Manchester library but apparently that option is now no longer available.

 

It may be 'only' a canal boat but to the EU it is a boat the same as any other category D recreational craft.

The gas, electrical and safety requirements are as applicable to a 'sewer tube' as they are to my category 'A' boat, other areas are more relaxed for cat D.

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2 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

Standard 1935  butty a bit past its sell by date. Someone had to do it. She was good for another 60 years when done. We owed her she had just failed to sink so many times  but never quite done so, in our first 11 years of living on her. She looked after us, i feel sad everytime i see her because while she is loved she is now static.

 

Oh, I didn't mean she wasn't nice sounding... Just that once you've replaced so many bits it is a little bit like a new (replica) boat!

 

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6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

For you to be saying that, I suspect you've never actually read the RCD and all the normative documents referred to within.

 

Yes the BSS is pretty straightforward but the RCD brings almost bewildering or overwhelming levels of complexity and bureaucracy to DIY building of a boat.

The easiest way to do the RCD documentation is to borrow someone else’s who has a boat that is not too wildly different.  Copy the document, changing words, names and figures as appropriate.  Make sure you have covered the main items, e.g. if you have a sf stove and the source document doesn’t then check another document that does.

This does of course require the original RCD to be properly done, preferably by a named surveyor.  Private “pleasure” boats only need to be self- certified, and I have seen some that really were a joke.  It’s different for liveaboards, but then you just “spend a lot of time on your boat “.  Nobody will ever look beyond the first page anyway.

 

 Principal cost?  A few pints of beer or whatever your local “favour” currency is.

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29 minutes ago, dor said:

Private “pleasure” boats only need to be self- certified,

Unfortunately totally wrong information.

 

Any commercial boat builder is obliged by law to build in compliance with the RCD.

The RCD is ONLY about Recreational (Private) craft and commercial craft are not covered - obviously as they are not recreational.

 

The only private 'liveaboards' that are NOT covered by the RCD are those built without engines for a permanent mooring.

 

Copying another RCD certification / manual is fraud, you are certifying that you used the correct gas pipe, you are certifying that you used the correct cables, did you really do the stability tests ? how do you know what your weight is ?

 

You couldn't really have got anything more wrong in such a short paragraph.

 

A watercraft needs to comply with the RCD if it was/is:

  • first placed on the EEA market after 16 June 1998; or
  • put into service in the EEA after 16 June 1998 (whether manufactured in the EEA or  imported from outside the EEA); or
  • a home built boat placed on the market within five years of completion; or
  • imported from a third country without CE marking; or
  • a major craft conversion (e.g. an experimental or racing boat being reassessed for compliance with the RCD)

There are slightly different rules (relaxation)  for 'self-builds' where you are allowed to self certify.

 

http://www.canaljunction.com/boat/rcd_narrowboat.htm

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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You sound like you know the crack fella, and been told all the good and bad of you project and still ok with it. even after all the negatives you have. 

So crack on and join me in the nut house of the boating world, best boat house you will ever find

:)

 

Do a blog though on here ;) not many about nowadays but for the three i see, i dont think any NB`s 

 

Good luck :)

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Unfortunately totally wrong information.

 

Any commercial boat builder is obliged by law to build in compliance with the RCD.

The RCD is ONLY about Recreational (Private) craft and commercial craft are not covered - obviously as they are not recreational.

 

The only private 'liveaboards' that are NOT covered by the RCD are those built without engines for a permanent mooring.

 

Copying another RCD certification / manual is fraud, you are certifying that you used the correct gas pipe, you are certifying that you used the correct cables, did you really do the stability tests ? how do you know what your weight is ?

 

You couldn't really have got anything more wrong in such a short paragraph.

 

A watercraft needs to comply with the RCD if it was/is:

  • first placed on the EEA market after 16 June 1998; or
  • put into service in the EEA after 16 June 1998 (whether manufactured in the EEA or  imported from outside the EEA); or
  • a home built boat placed on the market within five years of completion; or
  • imported from a third country without CE marking; or
  • a major craft conversion (e.g. an experimental or racing boat being reassessed for compliance with the RCD)

There are slightly different rules (relaxation)  for 'self-builds' where you are allowed to self certify.

 

http://www.canaljunction.com/boat/rcd_narrowboat.htm

 

 

Forgive me if I am wrong, my direct experience of this is about ten years old.  Back then it was certainly not unusual for people to prepare their own documentation on completing their fit out on an Annexe lll shell or sail away.  I'm not convinced that using someone else's documentation as a template would count as fraud.

 They could licence their boat for12 months on the back of an Annexe lll and then get a BSC to cover the fit out so far completed.

 

 I appreciate Alan that you have gone into the documents in far greater detail than me so thanks for correcting my understanding.

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1 minute ago, dor said:

Forgive me if I am wrong, my direct experience of this is about ten years old.  Back then it was certainly not unusual for people to prepare their own documentation on completing their fit out on an Annexe lll shell or sail away.  I'm not convinced that using someone else's documentation as a template would count as fraud.

 They could licence their boat for12 months on the back of an Annexe lll and then get a BSC to cover the fit out so far completed.

 

 I appreciate Alan that you have gone into the documents in far greater detail than me so thanks for correcting my understanding.

Indeed what you have just said is correct, a self-build can make a self declaration, but what you said was :

 

2 hours ago, dor said:

Private “pleasure” boats only need to be self- certified,

 

If you had said "self builds have an exemption and can self certify" then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

Copying another's documentation is akin to using someones birth certificate to get your passport, or, as they do in Lincolnshire, just using their neighbours Family tree and copying it for your own family tree.

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Unfortunately totally wrong information.

 

Any commercial boat builder is obliged by law to build in compliance with the RCD.

The RCD is ONLY about Recreational (Private) craft and commercial craft are not covered - obviously as they are not recreational.

 

The only private 'liveaboards' that are NOT covered by the RCD are those built without engines for a permanent mooring.

 

Copying another RCD certification / manual is fraud, you are certifying that you used the correct gas pipe, you are certifying that you used the correct cables, did you really do the stability tests ? how do you know what your weight is ?

 

You couldn't really have got anything more wrong in such a short paragraph.

 

A watercraft needs to comply with the RCD if it was/is:

  • first placed on the EEA market after 16 June 1998; or
  • put into service in the EEA after 16 June 1998 (whether manufactured in the EEA or  imported from outside the EEA); or
  • a home built boat placed on the market within five years of completion; or
  • imported from a third country without CE marking; or
  • a major craft conversion (e.g. an experimental or racing boat being reassessed for compliance with the RCD)

There are slightly different rules (relaxation)  for 'self-builds' where you are allowed to self certify.

 

http://www.canaljunction.com/boat/rcd_narrowboat.htm

 

 

So is an owner fitout of a commercially built sailaway a "home built boat" or not?  The sailaway has already been placed on the EEA market (various places advertise them for sale), and if it has been taken to the fitting out berth by water, it has surely been "put into service", notwithstanding that it hasn't been completed.

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Our boat does not have an RCD, in fact it does not have any instruction book at all and very little paperwork. We've lived on it for over ten years, it appears to work ok but I am worried, does the forum think we should get one of these RCD things ? They do appear to be very important 😀

 

...........Dave

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20 minutes ago, David Mack said:

So is an owner fitout of a commercially built sailaway a "home built boat" or not?  The sailaway has already been placed on the EEA market (various places advertise them for sale), and if it has been taken to the fitting out berth by water, it has surely been "put into service", notwithstanding that it hasn't been completed.

The boat built up to 'sailaway' (or whatever) has not been built by the end user so it is a commercial sale from the builder to the new owner for completion. That new owner now becomes he builder.

 

The boat to 'sailaway' standard must (by law) be built in accordance with the RCD and certified as being built to the necessary standard by issuing the 'part built' certificate called "Annex" documentation to the new owner. The 'builder' has then built a boat to the specs, and supplied an RCD certificate to the stage of build that he has sold it.

 

The new owner now becomes the 'builder' and he can decide to either build it to the RCD and either have it passed by an approved surveyor, or can self certify it. The other option is not to comply with the RCD at all, in which case you (or your descendents should you die) cannot sell it for a period of 5 years after its first use (or as the EU call it 'put onto the market')

Should you need to sell it prior to the 5 year period then legally you should have a PCA (Post Construction Assessment) by a qualified and approved RCD surveyor who will then certify it compliant or not compliant.

 

Should you self certify the boat and it subsequently (worse case) catches fire and someone dies and the enquiry finds that you have not followed the requirements then you are in big trouble. (I have no idea if there is a statute of limitations)

 

The RCD definition of 'part-built' :

 

Bare hulls and partly completed boats


EU guidance has recently helped to clarify the status and responsibility concerning bare hulls and partly completed
boats.
A partly completed boat is declared as consisting of a hull or a hull and one or more components and as such has
to comply with the appropriate requirements of the Directive before it is sold.
The seller of such is required by Annex III of the RCD to supply the purchaser with a partly completed boat
declaration. The declaration shall include:-
• the name and address of the partly completed boat builder, - the name and address of the representative of the
partly completed boat builder in the EU or, if appropriate, of the person responsible for placing the partly
completed boat on the market,
• a description of the partly completed boat,
• essential requirements that apply at that stage of construction.
Anyone who buys a bare or partly completed hull with a view to completing it, even for their own use, will be the
responsible person (not the hull builder) and become responsible for RCD Compliance including the requirements
relevant to the hull. It is therefore very important to obtain the necessary Declaration from the hull builder that the
hull has been built in accordance with the Directive’s scantling requirements.
Also, if the hull is more than 12m in length, if RSG Guideline Section E 3.1 on structure is not being employed, then
under the present rules the buyer should have arranged for the hull to have been inspected by a Notified Body
during its build.

 

As had often said, the chance of being caught is remote - until the time comes when a serious accident happens.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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How many people have actually died as a result of using a boat that has a BSS but not an RCD ??

 

If the answer is more than zero then could basic common sense have prevented these fatalities ?

 

...............Dave

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2 minutes ago, dmr said:

How many people have actually died as a result of using a boat that has a BSS but not an RCD ??

 

If the answer is more than zero then could basic common sense have prevented these fatalities ?

 

...............Dave

Just remember that of the 250,000+ leisure boats in the UK probably less than a quarter of then are required to have a BSSC.

 

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And the rules were effectively framed around volume manufacture of boats as consumer products, and as this sort of discussion illustrates, the rules don't really fit very well with the largely bespoke UK narrowboat market or the owner completion (or later modification) of a factory-produced hull. 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Indeed what you have just said is correct, a self-build can make a self declaration, but what you said was :

 

 

 

I thought all canal narrowboats were self certified

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10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I thought all canal narrowboats were self certified

Nope, just the owners.

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Indeed what you have just said is correct, a self-build can make a self declaration, but what you said was :

 

 

If you had said "self builds have an exemption and can self certify" then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

Copying another's documentation is akin to using someones birth certificate to get your passport, or, as they do in Lincolnshire, just using their neighbours Family tree and copying it for your own family tree.

But the point I made was that you substituted your own details where appropriate. I.e. you just used it as a template.  If a surveyor was preparing the documentation, they will use a template as well.

 I didn’t suggest you made a like for like copy.

 Things like your gas will be covered by the surveyor doing the BSC (assuming he/she was qualified for lpg ( boats).

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35 minutes ago, dor said:

Things like your gas will be covered by the surveyor doing the BSC (assuming he/she was qualified for lpg ( boats).

I doubt it, for example the RCD specifies the type of copper/stainless steel pipe and you will have a copy of the QA release certificate / document in your RCD file to prove it.

A BSS inspector would have no idea what hardness, etc pipe you used.

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3 hours ago, dor said:

Forgive me if I am wrong, my direct experience of this is about ten years old.  Back then it was certainly not unusual for people to prepare their own documentation on completing their fit out on an Annexe lll shell or sail away.  I'm not convinced that using someone else's documentation as a template would count as fraud.

 

There is a world of difference between:

 

1) Reading the reams of normative documents and understanding them, and then building in accordance with them, and

2) Copying a legitimate RCD handbook from a boat already built this way and changing all the obvious details and claiming yours therefore complies too. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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