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Jen-in-Wellies

Battery Towing Tractors. A Cunning Plan to Replace Diesel Boat Engines

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On another anti diesel slant VW has just lost in the German courts with its software fix! So even more court cases can be launched against them! I think this will speed up their push for EVs and drop diesel engines as fast as possible. 

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7 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The key word is developmental. The non internal combustion BMW's you can go out and buy right now are battery electric. A good article here on the reasons for this and why fuel cells currently make more sense for lorries and trains than they do for cars and how this could and probably will change in the future. For now battery electric is the more mature and cheaper technology for cars and probably narrowboating. A hydrogen fuel cell powered narrowboat has been built at Birmingham Uni. I see it passing the Uni by train regularly. It never seems to move, so I guess that the project is over.

 

Jen

You comments about cars seem to go against all that the experts at Riversimple say. And their car works.

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8 hours ago, mayalld said:

Hydrogen fuel cells.

Having done a little googling I have two points you might like to clarify for me.

 

1.  They are said to be very expensive to make so how does the average boater afford them?

 

2.  A quote from a website I was reading:

 

The manufacturing process creates carbon dioxide emissions for the fuel that virtually offsets all the gains that this technology offers from the user-end of the spectrum.

 

Why is this any better than say renewable electricity?

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4 hours ago, peterboat said:

It's a joke speak EV have ridiculed it for its total lack of safety and its huge cost to buy and its running costs.  Hydrogen is expensive and available in only 10 stations in the UK, one of which is in Sheffield, it's produced by a wind turbine so you might as well miss out the expensive and dangerous middle man (hydrogen) and just use the electricity to charge cars at home, work and charging stations 

So the people behind Riversimple are wrong, are they?
I'd rather believe them than you, as a mere amateur, especially when we've had the arguments elsewhere here about the difficulties of many people charging at home, which you completely fail to register.

Edited by Graham Davis
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21 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

You comments about cars seem to go against all that the experts at Riversimple say. And their car works.

If it is so good, why has no other car manufacturer used the technology in a high volume car so far? Why is every other manufacturer currently developing and selling battery electric cars over fuel cell ones. The half dozen or so fuel cell models produced by various companies over the last ten, or fifteen years are either out of production, or are sold only in certain countries.

Starting a new manufacturing company off from nothing is not easy and many fail, even if their product is good. If Riversimple's technology is so amazing, why have they not licensed it to other manufacturers? This would be a good way to bring in cash with minimal outlay. I had a look at their web site and it is big on flashy graphics and short on details.

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1 hour ago, Graham Davis said:

So the people behind Riversimple are wrong, are they?
I'd rather believe them than you, as a mere amateur, especially when we've had the arguments elsewhere here about the difficulties of many people charging at home, which you completely fail to register.

The car and the  company is a joke ! Have you seen the price of them? You can buy a real electric car that is safe and not a mobile time bomb!! I wouldn't be seen dead in one and anyone driving one is very likely to end up cooked and blown to pieces 

Edited by peterboat

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2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If it is so good, why has no other car manufacturer used the technology in a high volume car so far? Why is every other manufacturer currently developing and selling battery electric cars over fuel cell ones. The half dozen or so fuel cell models produced by various companies over the last ten, or fifteen years are either out of production, or are sold only in certain countries.

Starting a new manufacturing company off from nothing is not easy and many fail, even if their product is good. If Riversimple's technology is so amazing, why have they not licensed it to other manufacturers? This would be a good way to bring in cash with minimal outlay. I had a look at their web site and it is big on flashy graphics and short on details.

 You don't have a clue do you?
Toyota Mirai?
Hyundai Nexo?
Honda Clarity?
 

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

The car and the  company is a joke ! Have you seen the price of them? You can buy a real electric car that is safe and not a mobile time bomb!! I wouldn't be seen dead in one and anyone driving one is very likely to end up cooked and blown to pieces 

I see you are as rude and ignorant here as you are in the Brexit thread.
You are nothing but a mere amateur but are willing to denigrate a company that you know nothing about.
As for the safety aspect, I wonder how they have managed to get 2 cars through the IVA Test? Perhaps the Government examiners are better informed than you are? I'd say that is a foregone conclusion.
This is NOT a time bomb.
You are NOT going to get cooked.
You are NOT going to get blown to pieces.

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1 hour ago, Graham Davis said:

Toyota Mira

Introduced in 2014. As of December 2017, global sales totaled 5,300

 

1 hour ago, Graham Davis said:

Hyundai Nexo

In 2018 they sold a grand total of 949.

 

1 hour ago, Graham Davis said:

Honda Clarity

In addition to the fuel cell version there is now a battery electric and a plug in hybrid version. In America in July this year they sold 800 of the plug in hybrid version and 47 battery electric. Source. This source says that the total for all three versions in America in July was 852, so the fuel cell version sold were 852 - 800 - 47 = 5!

 

In March this year, the Nissan Leaf battery electric was the first to pass 400,000 produced. Tesla sold 160,000 model 3's in 2018. Fuel cell cars seem to be a rounding error in comparison.

 

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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1 hour ago, Graham Davis said:

You are nothing but a mere amateur but are willing to denigrate a company that you know nothing about.

Since he successfully converted his boat to battery - solar - electric drive, he does seem to know a bit about some things!

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2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Since he successfully converted his boat to battery - solar - electric drive, he does seem to know a bit about some things!

But no expertise in hydrogen fuel cells though.
As I said, an amateur, and a very rude one at that.

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42 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

But no expertise in hydrogen fuel cells though.
As I said, an amateur, and a very rude one at that.

Are you an expert in hydrogen fuel cells Graham?  I'm quite interested in them, if they can be shown to be viable for anything other than proof of concept, and not requiring a massive amount of fossil fuel inputs.

 

@peterboat may well be an amateur at EV technology, but as I understand it he is running 2 electric road vehicles and 2 electric boats all the time - which gives him a staggering amount of real world practical experience that most of the handwavers don't have.

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12 hours ago, peterboat said:

It's a joke speak EV have ridiculed it for its total lack of safety and its huge cost to buy and its running costs.  Hydrogen is expensive and available in only 10 stations in the UK, one of which is in Sheffield, it's produced by a wind turbine so you might as well miss out the expensive and dangerous middle man (hydrogen) and just use the electricity to charge cars at home, work and charging stations 

You rather miss the point 

 

there isn't enough lithium in existence to make enough batteries to power all these cars

 

battery technology is here now. It provides a power source now to allow development of the electrical drive train, but it will not scale

 

ultimately fuel cell technology will need to work

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I notice nobody has attempted to enlighten me over my queries in #153

 

1. Cost

 

2. Production emissions basically negating the advantages of the cell.

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1 hour ago, Jerra said:

I notice nobody has attempted to enlighten me over my queries in #153

 

1. Cost

 

2. Production emissions basically negating the advantages of the cell.

OK;

 

1) Fuel cell cost is primarily driven by the use of precious metal catalysts. As significantly cheaper catalysts become available (and the development here is using iron catalysts instead of platinum), the cost of fuel cells will fall.

 

2) There isn't any actual evidence here.

 

The main issue with fuel cells today is that Hydrogen production isn't clean.

 

When fuel cells will come into their own is when hydrogen production shifts to electrolysis, using renewable energy.

 

You ask "why not just use renewable energy". The answer is all about how to get that energy to the point of use. For fixed installations, that is simple. For moving ones, it is less so. Somehow, you have to take all that renewable energy, and store it for later use without being connected to the grid.

 

You need to find a medium that is available, energy dense, capable of being transferred onboard rapidly, and at convenient intervals.

 

Now, let us consider the options;

 

Batteries - nope. They are energy dense, but there are issues around sufficient supply, and around speed of energy on-boarding, and around the provision of infrastructure that will conveniently allow boats to charge.

 

Batteries plus solar - a little better, but doesn't fix the availability issues, and solar is never going to be the complete answer.

 

Fuel cell - yes.

 

A fuel cell is simply another battery chemistry. The big difference being that rather than recharge on board, the recharging happens on land, and you load the charge at suitable intervals.

 

The technology isn't there yet, but it will be in a relatively short time,

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14 hours ago, Graham Davis said:

I see you are as rude and ignorant here as you are in the Brexit thread.
You are nothing but a mere amateur but are willing to denigrate a company that you know nothing about.
As for the safety aspect, I wonder how they have managed to get 2 cars through the IVA Test? Perhaps the Government examiners are better informed than you are? I'd say that is a foregone conclusion.
This is NOT a time bomb.
You are NOT going to get cooked.
You are NOT going to get blown to pieces.

Think hindenburg and in reality thats how safe these cars are hydrogen destroys metals until thats sorted they will never make it

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjMnYmN4Z3kAhXEJlAKHfWjBgwQwqsBMAF6BAgKEAc&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQjlGdnolTzw&usg=AOvVaw2RJ0rqiRsiQiqbKMVVS6JS

9 hours ago, mayalld said:

You rather miss the point 

 

there isn't enough lithium in existence to make enough batteries to power all these cars

 

battery technology is here now. It provides a power source now to allow development of the electrical drive train, but it will not scale

 

ultimately fuel cell technology will need to work

Batteries other than lithium will do the job its moving on all the time, India is developing Irion ion batteries, sodium batteries are very close Hydrogen is a very dangerous dead end, I have posted pictures on here before on a Hydrogen car catching fire during refueling they are a death trap

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1 hour ago, mayalld said:

OK;

 

1) Fuel cell cost is primarily driven by the use of precious metal catalysts. As significantly cheaper catalysts become available (and the development here is using iron catalysts instead of platinum), the cost of fuel cells will fall.

 

2) There isn't any actual evidence here.

 

The main issue with fuel cells today is that Hydrogen production isn't clean.

 

When fuel cells will come into their own is when hydrogen production shifts to electrolysis, using renewable energy.

 

You ask "why not just use renewable energy". The answer is all about how to get that energy to the point of use. For fixed installations, that is simple. For moving ones, it is less so. Somehow, you have to take all that renewable energy, and store it for later use without being connected to the grid.

 

You need to find a medium that is available, energy dense, capable of being transferred onboard rapidly, and at convenient intervals.

 

Now, let us consider the options;

 

Batteries - nope. They are energy dense, but there are issues around sufficient supply, and around speed of energy on-boarding, and around the provision of infrastructure that will conveniently allow boats to charge.

 

Batteries plus solar - a little better, but doesn't fix the availability issues, and solar is never going to be the complete answer.

 

Fuel cell - yes.

 

A fuel cell is simply another battery chemistry. The big difference being that rather than recharge on board, the recharging happens on land, and you load the charge at suitable intervals.

 

The technology isn't there yet, but it will be in a relatively short time,

Dave it always ends in a dead end 10 hydrogen stations in the UK and the stuff eats metal why would you want to drive a time bomb?

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10 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Are you an expert in hydrogen fuel cells Graham?  I'm quite interested in them, if they can be shown to be viable for anything other than proof of concept, and not requiring a massive amount of fossil fuel inputs.

 

@peterboat may well be an amateur at EV technology, but as I understand it he is running 2 electric road vehicles and 2 electric boats all the time - which gives him a staggering amount of real world practical experience that most of the handwavers don't have.

No I am not and neither is Peterboat. However I have been to their factory and several talks by them and have seen both of the cars.

There is no way that either of the cars would have passed their IVA Tests if there were concerns about the safety of the gas tanks they use, or any of the other systems either, and that alone shows the lack of knowledge that Peterboat has over this matter, which is followed by his usual aggressive and rude retorts. He does himself no favours and would get a better response from people if he toned his attitude down and did some research about how they have overcome the problems he THINKS are present.

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4 hours ago, Graham Davis said:

No I am not and neither is Peterboat. However I have been to their factory and several talks by them and have seen both of the cars.

There is no way that either of the cars would have passed their IVA Tests if there were concerns about the safety of the gas tanks they use, or any of the other systems either, and that alone shows the lack of knowledge that Peterboat has over this matter, which is followed by his usual aggressive and rude retorts. He does himself no favours and would get a better response from people if he toned his attitude down and did some research about how they have overcome the problems he THINKS are present.

Ivan isn't hard to pass my TukTuk passed it easily enough, I doubt any of the testers have done a course in hydrogen safety?

And have you seen how much these death traps are to rent? You would be able to rent a tesla I suspect for similar money and be able to use it to carry five people incomfort and safety

 
 
 
And here a bit on what Hydrogen does to metals just to assure you that storing the Hydrogen at high pressure isnt safe

 

 
 
Edited by peterboat

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3 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Trying to get back on topic. Anyone going to make a fuel cell boat towing tractor that we can try out?

 

I don't think so, but I could soon knock up one with a Duracell. 😁😂

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The biggest problem with fuel cells is not their cost or the hydrogen storage/safety problem, it's that their overall end-to-end system efficiency including hydrogen generation (by any method) is lousy (about half) compared to batteries. So even if the energy source is renewables (which it isn't right now) they use twice as much of it. Given that one of the biggest drivers for cars is improved energy efficiency, this makes no sense whatsoever.

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😋

9 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

I don't think so, but I could soon knock up one with a Duracell. 😁😂

I  tried the whole thing cost a fortune and you know that breach on the L & L? It was the hydrogen fuel cell exploding 🤣😋

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20 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

I don't think so, but I could soon knock up one with a Duracell. 😁😂

Are we back to Hamster wheels with the Duracell rabbit?

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