emergency services and what3words

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

did I?

I wasn't there, but the fact that it continues to track you (but with reduced accuracy) would suggest to me that you were still locked onto 'some' satellites.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I wasn't there, but the fact that it continues to track you (but with reduced accuracy) would suggest to me that you were still locked onto 'some' satellites.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. My hand held loses signal if I go into a tunnel (unsurprisingly) but the internal mapping of the unit connects the track once I re-emerge so that it looks continuous but only because the internal workings have joined up the various points at which I have had a signal.

[ditchcrawler]

I will try and watch the GPS indicator tomorrow or the next day, it Hatton in the morning so I may be busy unless there are lots of Volockies

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I wouldn't be too sure about that. My hand held loses signal if I go into a tunnel (unsurprisingly) but the internal mapping of the unit connects the track once I re-emerge so that it looks continuous but only because the internal workings have joined up the various points at which I have had a signal.

As I said - I wasn't there so it is simply supposition based on my GPS units.

 

Ditchcrawler's track is shown as 'sharks-teeth' so it is not just 'connecting the dots', I'd suggest that it is actually tracking him but with reduced accuracy, hence the big 'swings' off track.

 

If I am walking along a single track road my unit will show me which side of the road I was on -  it may occasionally veer off and I'm actually shown walking in the ditch, or on the grass verge.

 

Does your iPad have EGNOS ?

(basically a system that takes GPS and makes it more accurate)

Consisting of three geostationary satellites and a network of ground stations, EGNOS achieves its aim by transmitting a signal containing information on the reliability and accuracy of the positioning signals sent out by GPS. It allows users in Europe and beyond to determine their position to within 3 metres, compared with about 17 metres for GPS.

 

What is the difference between GPS and EGNOS?

GPS is a global navigation satellite system (GNSS) that allows anyone with a GPS receiver to navigate from anywhere in the world. EGNOS is a satellite based augmentation system (SBAS) that makes the GPS signal more precise and also provides an integrity signal about GPS performance by broadcasting error corrections to the users via three geostationary satellites over Europe. This means that without a GPS signal, EGNOS does not work.

 

 

Maybe that is the reason that my GPS doesn't seem to suffer from similar problems.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As I said - I wasn't there so it is simply supposition based on my GPS units.

 

Ditchcrawler's track is shown as 'sharks-teeth' so it is not just 'connecting the dots', I'd suggest that it is actually tracking him but with reduced accuracy, hence the big 'swings' off track.

 

If I am walking along a single track road my unit will show me which side of the road I was on -  it may occasionally veer off and I'm actually shown walking in the ditch, or on the grass verge.

 

Does your iPad have EGNOS ?

(basically a system that takes GPS and makes it more accurate)

Consisting of three geostationary satellites and a network of ground stations, EGNOS achieves its aim by transmitting a signal containing information on the reliability and accuracy of the positioning signals sent out by GPS. It allows users in Europe and beyond to determine their position to within 3 metres, compared with about 17 metres for GPS.

 

What is the difference between GPS and EGNOS?

GPS is a global navigation satellite system (GNSS) that allows anyone with a GPS receiver to navigate from anywhere in the world. EGNOS is a satellite based augmentation system (SBAS) that makes the GPS signal more precise and also provides an integrity signal about GPS performance by broadcasting error corrections to the users via three geostationary satellites over Europe. This means that without a GPS signal, EGNOS does not work.

 

 

Maybe that is the reason that my GPS doesn't seem to suffer from similar problems.

I think that 'connecting the dots' is pretty much what all GPS tracking systems do, whether it is my hand held, your marine or Ditchcrawlers unit. A while back I used to download the data from my hand held onto a laptop programme to see where I had sailed and how far etc. The track was constructed of numerous sampling points which also gave me the time that I was at that particular co-ordinate, I can't remember now what the sampling period was but it was quite short. Isn't that what Heisenberg was on about with his uncertainty principle? You can know what the position of something is, but the accuracy of its speed is reduced but if you accurately know it's speed then the accuracy of it's position is reduced. My unit apparently shows both speed and position, so something must be compromised. 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I think that 'connecting the dots' is pretty much what all GPS tracking systems do, whether it is my hand held, your marine or Ditchcrawlers unit. 

Yes - I think that is how they work.

 

The 'normal' update setting is every second, but as a power saving device it can be reduced to every 4 seconds, (gives me 20 hours use rather than 10 hours)

 

The unit I am 'talking about' is a Hand-Held Hiking Unit and is far more accurate than any of my Marine GPS / Plotters.

I guess being 5 metres off track on a 'knife edge ridge' in cloud half way up a mountain is potentially more critical than being 10 - 20 - 30 metres off track in the middle of the Irish Sea.

[David Mack]

The emergency services are having doubts about What3Words.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57156797

[frangar]

13 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The emergency services are having doubts about What3Words.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57156797

I see their point….actually an interesting article from the bbc!  I’ve just downloaded the os software which seems to work ok. 

[Iain_S]

The circle.goal(s).leader positions are pretty unusual in that both positions are possible locations. Usually, as per the other examples, a misheard word gives a position so far away from the correct one that it is obviously wrong, as per the other examples given in the article.

 

 

[David Mack]

13 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

The circle.goal(s).leader positions are pretty unusual in that both positions are possible locations. Usually, as per the other examples, a misheard word gives a position so far away from the correct one that it is obviously wrong, as per the other examples given in the article.

 

 

But not the case in these nearby location pairs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56901363

Edited June 1, 2021 by David Mack

[Alan de Enfield]

34 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But not the case in these nearby location pairs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56901363

 

So over 30 duplicates / 'false positives' in a small area, that could be factored up to 'millions' across the whole of the UK

 

The article quotes that there are '1000s' less than 1km apart.

 

1km when suffering with a hypothermia half way up a mountain is a long way away.

1km when after being stabbed in central London is a long way away

Edited June 1, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[andy3196]

55 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

The circle.goal(s).leader positions are pretty unusual in that both positions are possible locations

In that case, the context of the emergency would sort out any confusion, a sinking boat would be in the water, a person trapped between two skips wouldn't.

 

Of course if the two possible locations were similar, e.g. A bit of open moorland, an easy way to get the correct location would be for the call handler to ask for the address of the next square over. "Tags.nail.sooner" doesn't have a similar address nearby.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Iain_S said:

The circle.goal(s).leader positions are pretty unusual in that both positions are possible locations. Usually, as per the other examples, a misheard word gives a position so far away from the correct one that it is obviously wrong, as per the other examples given in the article.

 

 

And what error would one wrong digit  give in a 12 number map reference

[IanD]

The point about what3words is not that it's 100% perfect and error-free, because nothing is. The point is that it's another way to locate people, and one that's easy to use and more accurate than the easily-accessed alternatives.

[IanD]

On 28/08/2019 at 21:47, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I think that 'connecting the dots' is pretty much what all GPS tracking systems do, whether it is my hand held, your marine or Ditchcrawlers unit. A while back I used to download the data from my hand held onto a laptop programme to see where I had sailed and how far etc. The track was constructed of numerous sampling points which also gave me the time that I was at that particular co-ordinate, I can't remember now what the sampling period was but it was quite short. Isn't that what Heisenberg was on about with his uncertainty principle? You can know what the position of something is, but the accuracy of its speed is reduced but if you accurately know it's speed then the accuracy of it's position is reduced. My unit apparently shows both speed and position, so something must be compromised. 

How GPS receivers calculate position and speed is by using lots of clever algorithms to extract these from noisy data, and some manufacturers are better than this at others -- I was involved in the design of a GPS chipset some time ago, and this "secret sauce" made for quite big differences in tracking accuracy when we compared our solution with competitors. The fact that they can do all this using signals buried so far down in the noise that they're effectively invisible (unless you know exactly what you're looking for) never ceased to amaze me... ?

 

We also did a GPS development for a Russian R&D lab using far higher sampling rates than normal for "high-speed location tracking", and were worried about reliability and lifetime because the chips ran quite hot. Eventually they told us "No problem, chip only has to work once for less than a minute". Oh dear... ?

[Iain_S]

48 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And what error would one wrong digit  give in a 12 number map reference

Anything from a metre to 1100 km (H instead of S (or numerical equivalent) as first digit. Actually, most unlikely error on all numeric as  HT is 3 11,

Your 12 figure grid reference is a bit more precise than W3W ; 1 metre if all numeric; 10cm if repeating with letters/first digits omitted !

 

Any error greater than 100km would normally be obvious, the 10km or 1km one could be a problem, a wrong "100m" digit  leaves a 1km square  to search. At least the correct part of the grid reference would give some clue as to where to start, unlike W3W, and, the greater the error, the more chance of figuring out the correct one.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Anything from a metre to 1100 km (H instead of S (or numerical equivalent) as first digit. Actually, most unlikely error on all numeric as  HT is 3 11,

Your 12 figure grid reference is a bit more precise than W3W ; 1 metre if all numeric; 10cm if repeating with letters/first digits omitted !

 

Any error greater than 100km would normally be obvious, the 10km or 1km one could be a problem, a wrong "100m" digit  leaves a 1km square  to search. At least the correct part of the grid reference would give some clue as to where to start, unlike W3W, and, the greater the error, the more chance of figuring out the correct one.

 

 

 

 

A 405 / 121.5 PLB resolves all those issues, "Smaller than a packet of fags" activate it and it tells the emergency services your co-ordinates (no speaking, no typing, no errors) gets them to within a few metres (depending on GPS signal strength) and then allows RF tracking on the 121.5Mhz frequency and they get to within a couple of metres of you in the dark,  snow etc.

 

As I said earlier, W3W may be fine for an Amazon delivery, or finding a supermarket car park, but for serious life threatening issues you need something more accurate and fail-safe.

[Mike Todd]

My continuing concern is that it seems a clear intention, in  time, to monetise the IPR. Whilst it seems great at the moment, cos it is free, how much would you be prepared to pay to access it in the future?

 

This seems much the same as Google and Amazon, both of which looked a a good idea when first introduced but now that they are making vast (barely taxed) profits from it, some folk have second thoughts but it is too late. The idea of monetise, without limit, something that is adopted by public services and may well be life critical, has to be of concern. 

[Richard10002]

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

A 405 / 121.5 PLB resolves all those issues, "Smaller than a packet of fags" activate it and it tells the emergency services your co-ordinates (no speaking, no typing, no errors) gets them to within a few metres (depending on GPS signal strength) and then allows RF tracking on the 121.5Mhz frequency and they get to within a couple of metres of you in the dark,  snow etc.

 

As I said earlier, W3W may be fine for an Amazon delivery, or finding a supermarket car park, but for serious life threatening issues you need something more accurate and fail-safe.

How many canoeist even know what a PLB is, never mind actually buying and using one?

 

How many canoeists will have an Apple or Android mobile phone.

 

W3W is better than nothing.

 

W3W is better for someone who doesn't know what lat long is, or doesn't know how to find it.

 

If we services need to be educated to ask for more than one W3W grid, a couple of adjacent grids, say... I don't see a problem.

 

You really do live on a different planet to most of the rest of us, don't you Alan, (de Enfield)!

 

Planet Smart Arse I think its called.

35 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

My continuing concern is that it seems a clear intention, in  time, to monetise the IPR. Whilst it seems great at the moment, cos it is free, how much would you be prepared to pay to access it in the future?

 

This seems much the same as Google and Amazon, both of which looked a a good idea when first introduced but now that they are making vast (barely taxed) profits from it, some folk have second thoughts but it is too late. The idea of monetise, without limit, something that is adopted by public services and may well be life critical, has to be of concern. 

My guess is that they won't monetise the life saving emergency use... more the location of a store or similar, or the use by delivery services, and the like. 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Richard10002 said:

How many canoeists will have an Apple or Android mobile phone.

 

W3W is better than nothing.

 

 

 

If said canoeist doesn't have either an Android or an Apple phone how is he/she going to find their W3W postion and relay that to the emergency services ?

 

Maybe Planet Smart Arse is a better place than 'Planet Dumbo' !

[Richard10002]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

If said canoeist doesn't have either an Android or an Apple phone how is he/she going to find their W3W postion and relay that to the emergency services 

They can't can they, but that's not really relevant is it. In a similar way, if they don't have your PLB the services can't get a position from it, can they! 

 

Why do you continue with your closed mind and focused obsession. You seem to flit between planet smart arse and planet dumbo now.

 

The point was that anybody, canoeist or otherwise is many many times more likely to have a mobile phone than a PLB, and you know that.

 

W3W has its place in emergency service and location, just like PLBs and lat longs and so on. To dismiss it like you do is short sighted. It will almost certainly save some lives that otherwise would not have been saved - in fact the canoeist in question may be one of them.

[andy3196]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

My continuing concern is that it seems a clear intention, in  time, to monetise the IPR. Whilst it seems great at the moment, cos it is free, how much would you be prepared to pay to access it in the future?

See https://what3words.medium.com/how-does-what3words-make-money-f7ddfa791ab4  for how they make their money.

[Iain_S]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

If said canoeist doesn't have either an Android or an Apple phone which is waterproof how is he/she going to find their W3W postion and relay that to the emergency services ?

 

Maybe Planet Smart Arse is a better place than 'Planet Dumbo' !

 (My bold added)

[Graham Davis]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

A 405 / 121.5 PLB resolves all those issues, "Smaller than a packet of fags" activate it and it tells the emergency services your co-ordinates (no speaking, no typing, no errors) gets them to within a few metres (depending on GPS signal strength) and then allows RF tracking on the 121.5Mhz frequency and they get to within a couple of metres of you in the dark,  snow etc.

 

As I said earlier, W3W may be fine for an Amazon delivery, or finding a supermarket car park, but for serious life threatening issues you need something more accurate and fail-safe.

 

Having just Googled those I find that none are less than £200!
They "might" apply to the wavey sea riders you seem to frequent but I can't see many weekend fell walkers, climbers or canoeists buying one.

2 hours ago, Iain_S said:

 (My bold added)

I have several friends who SUP and they all carry their mobile phones on waterprrof cases.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

They "might" apply to the wavey sea riders you seem to frequent but I can't see many weekend fell walkers, climbers or canoeists buying one.

 

100's of hikers carry them, they can be picked up for £70 (I managed to get 2 from Gumtree each with 4 years battery life left at £30 each)

 

I use mine when walking in the mountains - if I fell and broke my leg and had no phone signal (being in a gully, surrounded by rock etc ?) then I would use it.

It fits onto my rucksack shoulder strap and is readily available in an emergency.

 

Whilst they do work worldwide on Land, Sea or Air they are not the same as a boat EPIRB which has longer transmit times on the battery etc etc.