Notre Dame on Fire

[Athy]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Politics and religion all in one thread, with a mod knee deep in the argument.

 

 

 

Keep my knees out of this , you.

 

In view of Mr. Schweizer's and Mr. Boiler's observations, can we please keep the discussion (which, as Mr., T. says, is a most interesting one) centred on the news rather than on any expression of religious beliefs or doctrines?

 

I would add that people who don't like the thread should not feel compelled to participate in it.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Nobody needs billions in personal wealth , nobody.

It's a good thing that they're giving it away then, isn't it?

[billS]

3 minutes ago, Athy said:

 

It's a good thing that they're giving it away then, isn't it?

Virtual geenie for that one Mike.

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

The disgust I felt that somebody could stump up such a vast sum whilst knowing that millions of people are starving can hardly be expressed. What sort of christian is he?

You know how much they give/do for the world's poor?

 

You know they are giving because they are Christian rather than they want to help preserve part of France's history and an iconic example of Gothic Architecture?

 

I hadn't had you down as a person who jumped to conclusions and made sweeping assertions, it seems I was wrong.

[The Welsh Cruiser]

Oh blimey two remainers falling out, I thought you all shared the same script.

 

It does appear that Machpoint's outlook on organised religion is bordering on hatred. Probably not something a progressive thinker would want to be associated with but it's been said before, go far enough one way politically, you'll meet your foes on the opposite side. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by The Welsh Cruiser

[Philip]

56 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

You miss the point by miles. Malign dictators were/are not acting evilly in support of their agnosticism/atheism, or even because of it -- in many cases they were substituting a cult figure or hero-worship in the place of longer=established religions. Example: look at the regime in the PRK and tell me its not a religion? 

 

The problem with the Catholic clergy (and others) is that these people set themselves up as paragons of virtue and clearly were not. This means that as well as the natural nastiness of kiddy-fiddling (or whatever you want to call it -- it's still exploitation of the weak and defenceless) there were blatant hypocrisy, betrayal of people's trust, and criminal acts. There are no excuses, and the usual 'special pleading' allowed to the religious is utterly inappropriate.   

 

The disgust I felt that somebody could stump up such a vast sum whilst knowing that millions of people are starving can hardly be expressed. What sort of christian is he?

 

My family knew a priest personally, and always considered him a good honourable person. He conducted my daughter's marriage.

He is currently in Strangeways.

Enough said.

Again this is generalising with your comment about clergy setting themselves up as paragons of virtue. Many priests are humble and are in no way control freaks; arrogant about their position; like to laud their 'superiority' over the lay people and non-believers etc. Many are there purely to fulfil their ministry to serve others and in doing so give up the chance of a family life, a well paid job and subsequent luxuries, out of love and to serve. You could say this is a very virtuous life to lead. No doubt some priests feed off it and like to remind everyone else of this, but there are also many who are very humble.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Philip

[Jerra]

23 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Oh blimey two remainers falling out, I thought you all shared the same script.

 

Oh Dear its silly season again.   Apart from those who stick to a particular mantra such as "any out is better than any in" people hold different views on things.

 

When one of us declares we have changed our minds and decided Brexit is best then we will have fallen out.

 

Sorry for bringing Brexit into a non political thread but it appears Brexiteers are letting it pervade all discussion.   Sad really.

[Machpoint005]

28 minutes ago, Jerra said:

You know how much they give/do for the world's poor?

 

You know they are giving because they are Christian rather than they want to help preserve part of France's history and an iconic example of Gothic Architecture?

 

I hadn't had you down as a person who jumped to conclusions and made sweeping assertions, it seems I was wrong.

 

I do not know, and I wasn't jumping to any conclusions, just expressing my immediate reaction. I still think it is an obscene amount of money for one person to have at his disposal, no matter what his motivation may be for giving some of it away. I question the system that allows him to accumulate such great wealth. 

27 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

It does appear that Machpoint's outlook on organised religion is bordering on hatred.

 

No, tolerance. I am intolerant of greed and hypocrisy, though.

[carlt]

1 minute ago, Philip said:

You could say this is a very virtuous life to lead, but many priests are very humble.

I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of folk who choose such a career do so with the best of intentions. 

 

The problem with so many organisations (including the Catholic Church) is the way unspeakable acts committed by a tiny minority have been covered up by their leaders.

The acts of the Vatican, the BBC, the Scouting movement the Rotherham authorities and all the others who have covered up and protected the perpetrators are equally dispicable. 

 

The good thing is that within these organisations there now appears to be change. 

 

[Athy]

7 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

 

I question the system that allows him to accumulate such great wealth. 

 

 

A system which did not reward hard work, enterprise and, yes, a little luck would be worse because no one would have the incentive to get off their botties and get on with the job.

 

This family may, of course, have inherited their money: here again, a system which did not allow parents to pass money and possessions on to their offspring would not benefit society or improve people's quality of life.

[David Schweizer]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

Keep my knees out of this , you.

 

In view of Mr. Schweizer's and Mr. Boiler's observations, can we please keep the discussion (which, as Mr., T. says, is a most interesting one) centred on the news rather than on any expression of religious beliefs or doctrines?

 

Thank you Mike, although your requests is still being circumnavigated by some. My concern was that an important building has been severely compromised by a devastating fire, yet hardly any of the contributors appear to have any real interest in the building's history, or importance in the field of European Medieval architecture, or it's mixed fortunes over the centuries.

[carlt]

2 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

...hardly any of the contributors appear to have any real interest in the building's history, or importance in the field of European Medieval architecture, or it's mixed fortunes over the centuries.

 

Perhaps we should have all submitted our thesis on the subject before posting...

 

3 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

 or it's mixed fortunes over the centuries.

 

of which this is another addition to its rich history.

 

[Tumshie]

1 minute ago, David Schweizer said:

yet hardly any of the contributors appear to have any real interest in the building's history, or importance in the field of European Medieval architecture, or it's mixed fortunes over the centuries.

Appearances can be very deceptive. ?

 

 

[Athy]

1 minute ago, carlt said:

.

 

 

of which this is another addition to its rich history.

 

I guess that's how future generations, as they survey the proudly reconstructed edifice, will see it, yes.

8 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

Thank you Mike, although your requests is still being circumnavigated by some. 

Sort of, but only around the outer perimeters!

[Boater Sam]

Cause?  Act of god? Lightening? 

 

Or the devil's fork?

[The Welsh Cruiser]

An act of God would seem to be the most likely reason

[Athy]

1 minute ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

An act of God would seem to be the most likely reason

The telly news last night said that it was connected to renovation work. Someone obviously hadn't quite grasped the concept of renovation.

[Jerra]

3 minutes ago, Athy said:

The telly news last night said that it was connected to renovation work. Someone obviously hadn't quite grasped the concept of renovation.

The fact it seems to have started in the roof would suggest it was renovation work rather than arson. 

[Tumshie]

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

The fact it seems to have started in the roof would suggest it was renovation work rather than arson. 

It did mention on the Beeb that who over the official instigation body is for this kind of thing is confident at the moment that it was not arson but in fact a result of something to do with the renovations. 

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The fact it seems to have started in the roof would suggest it was renovation work rather than arson. 

I didn't know that. Isn't it unusual for fire to spread downwards? Perhaps it was noticed only when it reached the roof, thereby becoming more visible.

[Machpoint005]

1 minute ago, Athy said:

I didn't know that. Isn't it unusual for fire to spread downwards? Perhaps it was noticed only when it reached the roof, thereby becoming more visible.

Not when burning material, er, falls.

[Athy]

8 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Not when burning material, er, falls.

Ah well, there is that.

The press is keeping tight-lipped and ashen-faced about the cause. No one seems to know yet.

Macaroon has stated "We will rebuild", but has not made it clear who "we" are.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Athy

[Machpoint005]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

This family may, of course, have inherited their money:

 

The man has a controlling interest in LVMH (Loius Vuitton Moët Hennessey) which deals in luxury goods. I am sure we can all see the benefits to humanity accruing from that business.

[Athy]

11 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

The man has a controlling interest in LVMH (Loius Vuitton Moët Hennessey) which deals in luxury goods. I am sure we can all see the benefits to humanity accruing from that business.

Yes, of course. Apart from anything else, he can afford to make generous donations to worthy causes, such as the rebuilding of one of his country's most admired buildings. Good on him.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Athy

[The Welsh Cruiser]

20 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

The man has a controlling interest in LVMH (Loius Vuitton Moët Hennessey) which deals in luxury goods. I am sure we can all see the benefits to humanity accruing from that business.

Given that you find high levels of wealth obscene, I was wondering, what level of wealth is acceptable for you?

[Alan de Enfield]

The EU is asking all member Governments to contribute.

 

I guess 400 million Euros will go a long way towards rebuilding the fabric, the contents will of course be irreplaceable.

 

Individuals and groups are mobilising to help rebuild Notre-Dame. Hundreds of millions of euros have already been pledged.

Billionaire François-Henri Pinault, chairman and CEO of the Kering group that owns the Gucci and Yves Saint Laurent fashion brands, pledged €100m (£86m; $113m) towards rebuilding Notre-Dame, AFP news agency reports.

Another €200m was pledged by Bernard Arnault's family and their company LVMH - a business empire which includes Louis Vuitton and Sephora - on Tuesday morning, according to Reuters news agency.

Total, the French oil giant, has also pledged €100m.