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Can you not regulate your stove so it stays in on a full load of fuel longer than a typical squirrel? For example, our squirrel will run for 24 hours on low, fully loaded. If yours will run for 48 hours on a load (assuming it's twice the capacity of a squirrel), you may gain very little. As good as our squirrel is, it will not heat the far end of our 70ft boat. A few years ago, I installed a second squirrel in the bedroom, but very rarely light it due to cost. Finally, do you not have a diesel heater that can take the chill off when the temp is above 10 degrees?

Pay by use (e.g. tolls) is also very difficult and expensive to monitor and enforce, where a fixed fee which needs no monitoring or enforcement is not... You pay the same road tax (yes, I know...) regardless of whether you drive 10 miles a year or 10000, a license fee is like this -- if you don't use it much then it's poor value. The other type of usage tax is done by fuel taxes in cars, which is proportional to use (and fuel consumption). But most cars use far more fuel per year than most canal boats, so to get an equivalent sum would probably mean a massive tax increase on propulsion diesel, possible to £5 a litre or so -- and this would then cripple people using it for heating so we'd be back to the two-tier red/white pricing but with a *much* bigger cost difference (5x?) and therefore a *much* bigger incentive to commit fraud... 😞

The two lowest bridges are at Potter Heigham and Wroxham. Potter is increasingly unpassable by anything other than the smallest of boats. Both require the use of a pilot. You can also only pass through Yarmouth at a low tide due to bridge height. I suspect you are looking at boats from Richardsons at Stalham? We you may remember we had to abandon our last holiday after 2 days as the boat we had from them in April last year was just so ruddy cold and draughty. The diesel heating just couldnt keep on top of the cold. You might be OK in September. But we thought we would be OK in April and we weren't. My advice would be to go for one of their better/newer boats though this will obviously cost you more. The cheaper boats are cheap for a reason. They are a bit tattier and well worn. Our last boat however was mechanicaly well maintained and looked like it had had a recent engine. Apart from the heating not being up to the job everything worked. The newer boats are also quieter in the wheelhouse/interior. The noisy diesels get quite wearing on a long days cruise. Pubs are all over but Wroxham and Horning have a broader selection. The Lion at Thurne Dyke is a useful stop too. The Bridge Inn at Acle is/was a nice pub. You will need to check up to date but some pubs require booking ahead and charge. Cant really comment on quality though as they open and close and change hands quite often. The Northern Broads are IMHO are prettier than the South below Yarmouth but going to the southern Broads is worth it for the experience of going through Yarmouth and crossing Breydon water. Beccles is nice in the South as well as Geldeston, but last I heard the pub there was closed.

I've been through exactly this discussion with my boat. Going by Dave Jesse's measurements the standard Surecal coils only deliver just over 1kW, he measured a temperature rise of 16C/hour for a 55l Surecal: https://www.perseverancenb.com/post/how-to-measure-the-calorifier To speed up water heating from both generator and diesel boiler (both can put out more than 10kW) I'm having a custom calorifier made by coppercylinder.co.uk which has two large-area finned coils rated at 5kW each (and extra-thick 60mm lagging to keep it hot overnight). These are probably too big for a Thermotop C, but they'll do any size you want. The only problem is -- of course! -- the cost, over £1000 for mine... 😞

I'm wondering if I can prompt a discussion about the costs vs benefits of solar hot water, via a question: Imagine two boaters install identical sets of lithium batteries, and they use identical amounts of charge each day for their 'normal' systems, apart from one thing- boater A also uses his batteries and inverter to power the immersion heater (for say 50% of the year). Lets assume purely for discussion purposes that boater A is handsome and dashing, and boater B is a grimy troglodyte. And just for discussion, lets say that in heating up his water, boater A cycles 50% more energy through his batteries each day than boater B. So over a year, boater A is making his batteries cycle through 25% more energy than boater B. But here is the burning question- will the troglodyte boater B's batteries last 25% longer than those of the handsome boater A? It's one thing for us dashing solar hot water bods to count our savings in terms of engine running and diesel costs etc, but if our batteries only last 7 years instead of 10, are we really making a saving? Asking for a (handsome) friend.

Hi all. I’ve been mulling over this for a long time, and was going back to the back catalogue of posts again. But still not sure of the answer. At least I am now clear what the question is! I’ve a simple boat. Originally 12v only with a Squirrel stove and no rads. Happy with the heating as only a 47 foot boat and stove is close to the middle of the boat. No rads required. I added a simple 240v system with inverter and a few sockets. This also works well with 300w solar and my alternator to fill in the gaps in winter. What doesn’t work for me is hot water. At the moment is calorifier only and I need to run the engine daily for hot water, which is inconvenient and sub-optimal as I see it. Options? - I read a lot about boaters with diesel water heaters and understand I might use one to heat the calorifier tank. Sounded like a good option. Not hard to fit from the look of the kits I’ve seen, though appears to need a separate exhuast and some posters were critical about reliability and cost of maintenance. But I like the idea of running on a timer for an hour or so a day and looks like they run on 12v.. - Paloma / Morco open flue. Lots of boats my age (1989) have these fitted for instant hot water to taps and shower. Some say they eat gas. And its not at all clear if they can be fitted by a boat safe gas engineer now. Or not clear to me anyway! There are more advanced heaters without open flue, but I have power limitations and have read these need the sort of 240v I would not want to give. So whats’ the practical and realistically priced solution to supplement or replace the engine / calorifier set-up which just sucks! Thanks once more for your experience and advice 👍 Jak.

Londoners swap costly property for boating life as cost-of-living crisis mounts (telegraph.co.uk) Demand for narrowboats in the capital is double the normal level and they are selling for a quarter more than their typical value The cost-of-living crisis is pushing Londoners to live on canal boats as they are priced out of the capital’s increasingly unaffordable property market. With house prices soaring, rental costs ballooning and bills spiralling out of control, many Londoners are struggling to afford a traditional lifestyle and as a result the city’s historical waterways are seeing an influx of people putting down roots afloat. Experts say that currently there is twice the normal demand for narrowboats in London and they are selling for a quarter more than their normal value, with the majority of purchased vessels being used as permanent homes. The compromise for escaping the money-sucking pit of the rental industry is a scaled-back, confined and nomadic lifestyle necessitating the sacrifice of modern creature comforts such as microwaves, washing machines and a flushing toilet. While glossy magazines and twee TV documentaries paint a picturesque, idyllic picture of boat life, the reality for most full-time boaters, especially in London, is a far cry from this rose-tinted perception. While the summers can be quaint when moored up in Little Venice and surrounded by swans and ducklings, the winters in Uxbridge or Ladbroke Grove are long, dark and cold. Most boaters who choose to live aboard their vessel do so because they do not need to pay rent, on the condition that you inform the Canal and River’s Trust — the omnipotent canal authority — that you are a so-called Continuous Cruiser. This involves covering at least 20 miles of waterway a year and it is strictly prohibited to stay in one place for longer than two weeks . As a result, electricity comes from a pack of onboard 12V batteries, charged by the engine and solar panels; toilets must be emptied manually; gas, diesel and water must be constantly monitored and topped up; heat comes courtesy of a coal-powered stove; and laundry must be done via a launderette. It is often dubbed a "liberating lifestyle change", but the reality is often hard work and time-consuming, with hours spent on maintenance and upkeep. 'Twice as much interest in purchasing a boat than normal' Kerry Bolsom, director at the boat brokers Virginia Currer Marine, located in London, told The Telegraph that the boat market in and around the capital has seen a period of unprecedented activity in the last two years. "I personally think [boats are selling for] between 20-25 per cent over their true value," she said. "You are finding a lot of private sellers that are going way over and I would say easily 85 per cent of new buyers are continuously cruising. "There is probably twice as much interest in purchasing a boat than normal. It is definitely a seller's market. "Because the demand was so high over the last year there's now a shortage of boats. There's still a lot of people wanting to buy but not enough boats for everyone and it's pushed the prices up so they’re selling for more than what they should. "What we tended to have before was a lot of boats for people to look at. Now, people turn up and most of them are under offer so I've only got one or two boats to show. "Some of them I'm selling before they reach the open market because you've got people wanting to buy and obviously you know what your clients are looking for."

I rarely scavenge wood, I buy solid fuel, and hardwood logs and kindling, cost last year about £650, that's a warm boat, lived in all day all winter. Budget this year £750,, probably less. Plus diesel to charge batteries and boat a bit £40 pcm last year, £50 this year per month. Not much cruising. I can juggle heating fuels a bit to keep budget stable. Eberspacher Diesel heating has nearly doubled, it also uses electricity, so that has to be replaced. Diesel stoves like Refleks are a different beast, a good idea for folks who work as they can be left on a low setting, no battery drain, gravity fed. Running cost probably more than coal.

Useful information. However I think your interpretation is wrong. It is all about temperature difference and in your cited example, the incoming water is at 10C. Big temperature difference compared to primary side, which equals lots of heat transferred! Whereas in a radiator system the returning radiator water should be about 10C less than the outgoing water, ie if the primary side is 70/50 the radiator side would be 60/50 and at that (40C greater return temperature) the heat transfer would be MUCH less so that in reality you would get nowhere near 60C. And really 60C is not particularly hot for a radiator system. The max is 80C and that is what diesel heaters generally give out (well, that is what our Mikuni does anyway). With an engine only at 75C you obviously can’t get 80C but the closer the better, and that is achieved by as big a HE as is reasonably feasible (on grounds of size and cost).

i'll add to what bilgepump said, I have personal experience of buying a 19ft cruiser just prior to covid, we paid 3K for it. during lockdown, it was pretty much stripped out and just about anything that could be, taken home cleaned, sanded, repainted etc. Heating was a not too well installed chinese diesel heater, which was reinstalled and made safe, probably spent £100-200 on proper fuel pipe, exhaust fittings etc. it has no galley and a rather basic toilet ! in winter we pretty much strip out all the soft furnishings and take them away to keep them dry. We've resealed all the windows and cleared the vents and made them work properly (they'd been gunged up with silicone). Done loads of 'cosmetic' work to external fittings. (think labour of love) . Whilst the boat was 'stuck' in a marina during lockdown, we had it out and the bottom antifouled. The boat has been completely rewired as the electrics were a shambles (and its very basic even now). it passed it BSS about 18 months ago and the inspector said it would easily sell for £6K. this is in Lancashire not so not inflated southern jessie prices. This is just a leisure boat, more a day/weekend boat. in my opinion you are not going to get a livable boat for your budget. Great if you want a project like we did and have the time/capability to do the work (covid was a godsend for that ). presumably you have a house to return to at the weekend so a project boat could work for you - just go into it with your eyes open. ETA - as I'm sure someone else will say remember BOAT stands for a bring out another thousand (pounds) and everything on a boat takes twice as long as you think it will and costs at least twice what you expected....

Are you flirting with me? So sweet. I have to admit. In all the gas or no gas arguments, I forgot to point out to check the power used by the oven, and make sure the battery power is there. Inverter- fair call. In all the hysteria of the gas brigade, I did forget to mention these things needed clarifying. Fair cop. I allowed myself to be drawn in to the argument. Cost- yes, I admitted gas was probably cheaper than diesel. But then in the summer that's evened out by having solar. I suppose amongst all the shouting, I was, in a very poor way I suspect, trying to point out that we don't have enough info to be sure either way. So more investigation is needed by the OP regarding the boats systems. It still is, as the battery figure supplied clearly isn't correct. But, from what we now know, this should be doable, so long as they don't spend weeks alongside the tow path. I've always been clear of this. First proper checks should be done by the OP. Including switching the oven on as part of looking over the boat, and checking the power drain (when it isn't plugged in). That will give real figures, and I should have said this from the start. My bad. As I've always said though, it depends if they are happy going gas free, and if they like the boat. PS. If anything, I've been a little guilty of allowing the anti gas free brigade get to me. They jumped straight in, oh it's all electric heating, oh it's lead acid batteries, no you must never do it. When it was clear they were making stuff up about the boat in order to try and prove their point. We now find out these made up points were incorrect. I don't know whether it will suit the OP or not. None of us do. Also, our lovely friend possibly has a point as well, ie gas is easier. But, like me, he hasn't put it across very well at times. So I'm just saying, yes it can work in certain cases. If they want to come back and ask about power draw and figures, then that can be discussed away from the hysteria caused here. Now I don't know our lovely friend from Adam. But- he has been insistent the OP should not buy the boat, and also asked for a link to the broker. That to me sounds like he wants to snap the boat up himself.

I think I get an hour per litre of boat running say 2.5miles, and that heats water plus domestic battery charging. One litre diesel, £1.50. how much does that boat cost per hour travelling . With no solar he does not need massive batteries, just run the gen.

We think our grp narrowbeam cruiser is perfect, even for extended cruising, but probably not in the winter. Steel narrow boats do have some advantages over grp, particularly if you intend to live aboard, because they are often better insulated and so easier to keep warm in the winter. However, the insulation is often very thin, usually maybe an inch of polyurethane foam or a similar thickness of polystyrene, and nothing at all below 'floor' level. Grp cruisers often have little or no insulation, but being in general smaller than narrow boats, there is much less volume to heat, so they warm up quickly and for spring, summer and autumn use are easy and inexpensive to heat. The owners of steel narrowboats will often say that grp cruisers are not tough enough on the canals when negotiating locks and tunnels, but I have never suffered more than a scratch in all my years of cruising in grp boats. Remember that grp cruisers are smaller and lighter than narrow boats: They are more responsive to steer, they stop faster and have much greater acceleration than lumbering 15 tonne steel narrowboats. This superior manoeuvrability means that staying out of trouble is easy. Grp cruisers also often benefit from a 'V' profile hull, which is not only easier (and cheaper) to push through the water, but this also helps with directional stability when steering. It is also possible to moor closer to shallow bank sides than you can with flat bottomed narrow boats. They also tend to draw less water, so getting stuck in shallow canals has never been a problem for us. Grp cruisers are cheaper to buy: they waste no internal space on a forward 'well deck', this space being fully occupied by a huge double bed that any narrowboat would be jealous of. Our bed is more than 6 feet wide and infinitely more comfortable than any narrowboat 'double' bed that I have ever come across. In addition, the longer grp cruisers have centre cockpits and aft cabins, so there is no wasted space at the stern as there is with narrowboats. For this reason, in order to have the volume of internal space that you might find in a given size of grp cruiser, you would need to buy a considerably larger narrowboat. Just look inside a 30ft example of both if you doubt what I say. Remember too, that a shorter boat is cheaper to licence and cheaper to moor and can often fit into that last available gap in a prime canalside location. Also, grp boats do not need to be hauled out and 'blacked' every 2-3 years, giving a huge maintenance saving as well. In the last seven years, annual maintenance for us has been engine oil and filters, fuel filter and antifreeze. I check the impeller annually but have only replaced it twice and I slapped some new paint on the deck last year. Average annual cost less than £100. I should also dispell the myth that grp boats should winter ashore; this is just not true. They are absolutely strong enough to survive severe winters afloat and their hulls certainly don't need to 'dry out'. If you do overwinter ashore, the cost of craning out and back is offset by only needing to licence the boat for half the year. With every year that passes, the steel hulls of narrowboats are thinning due to rust, eventually resulting in the need for patching or complete over-plating; a very expensive operation. The other serious problem with steel craft is that of electrolytic and cathodic erosion; the sometimes severe pitting that can dangerously compromise the integrity of metal hulls; steel, iron and even worse aluminium. Grp hulls suffer no such problems, although a small, inexpensive shaft anode will be need to protect their propeller which is likely to be made of bronze. An outboard will have an anode of it's own. Osmosis is a minor condition that can occasionally affect grp hulls, but it is just a surface bubbling of the outer gel coat, does not make a boat leak, is not structural and has never caused any vessel to sink... unlike the rusting of steel hulls! Grp cruisers also seem much roomier than steel narrow boats. This is partly because cruisers tend to have much larger windows, giving much better views from the saloon. Also, with centre cockpit cruisers, you aren't walking through one cabin to get to the next, so it doesn't feel like you are living in a corridor. Centre cockpit cruisers also offer a lot more protection from inclement weather, especially with the windscreen and cockpit tent in place. No standing holding an umbrella, instead sitting in the warm and dry. Having said all that, there are some features that are desirable in a grp cruiser. If you intend to cruise any distance, you really want a diesel inboard engine: Only diesel fuel is readily available at the canal side and you may have to walk miles to find a roadside petrol station if you have an outboard motor. Also, it would be dangerous to carry large amounts of petrol on board. Diesel engines are extremely fuel efficient: my 20hp Vetus diesel uses 0.5l per hour at canal cruising speeds in my 30ft cruiser, that's about a month's cheap cruising from my built-in tank. You should also look for a shaft drive rather than a 'z' drive; there is much less to go wrong and repairing/reconditioning a 'z' drive can be hugely expensive. 'Z' drives protrude from the stern of cruisers and are therefore vulnerable to collision. Their aluminium alloy construction can also suffer serious corrosion over time. If you do have a shaft drive, then you MUST have a weed hatch above the propeller, as you will occasionally pick up rope or plastic or weed that will halt your progress, and without one you are stuck; unless you can swim! For summer use, we wouldn't swap out grp cruiser for a steel narrowboat, and we do many hundreds of canal and river miles each year.

The easiest way to establish whether a boat is suitable for continuous cruising is to buy a boat from someone who's already done it. Like mine which has been all over in the last three years (within your budget, if you'd like to send me a message, will probably go to a broker at the weekend otherwise). Other boats which have been continuously cruised also exist! - 40 feet or 57 feet is really a matter of personal taste. I know one guy that prefers his 40 foot Aintree Beetle to his house; I much prefer having a bit more space to spread myself around, especially when the weather is not inviting me to go outside. Having a dinette to eat at and space for a sofa and a bit of outside space is good. Smaller boats cost less and are marginally cheaper to license and marginally easier to find moorings in crowded areas and places to turn the boat around, but larger narrowboats really aren't any more difficult to physically handle. All narrow boats are very very heavy, and all of them sit in water, which means that pulling them in isn't actually that hard work. Above 57' the Pennine canals become more difficult or impossible - Engine rooms with shiny vintage engines and traditional style back cabins are definitely personal taste! - I don't think washing machines are a good indication of being a suitable boat for continuous cruising at all. Lots of us manage with twin tubs, and proper washing machines are often fitted to boats that spend all the time attached to landlines and may not even work properly on batteries/inverter - you might be able to get away with a boat without a stove (I don't have mine on between April and October) but they are useful things to have, and things future buyers look at. You might actually use a diesel webasto/eberspacher heating system with radiators more if you get a boat with both though. - buying a "cheap boat" as a first boat isn't a good idea, unless you know why it's cheap. Lots of them are cheap because they need expensive work done or are difficult to sell, and if you stick to the plan to sell a good secondhand boat a couple of years after buying it, you'll probably get your money back anyway. To be fair solar panels are a significant omission on a boat spends most of its time away from moorings now that they're cheap and easy to fit, unless you plan on running your engine every day in summer anyway. Just most people don't realise they're cheap and easy to fit... I love this idea, but the tricky bit is always getting them dry again. Maybe I could replace my engine flywheel with a tub! For the record, the spin dryer on twin tubs is very good, but only because you can only fit a handful of clothes in at any one time

Decision 044. Heating 2. GOOD. Time passed and things changed. My interest was now in providing holidays for my 2 granddaughters and their parents and myself and my wife. We needed more beds. I decided to install a sofa in the saloon that converted into bunk beds. With considerable research I came up with a design that made for a really comfortable sofa whose back folded up to make the beds. They were a bit on the narrow side and the top bunk was decidedly narrow, almost hireboat small!, but they were ideal for the girls aged 3 and 5. I was lucky that a reinforcing angle in the cabin wall provided a rock-solid fixture in exactly the right place for the top bunk hinge. This construction required the removal of the stove from its central location. After many years of useful service I had lost enthusiasm for it. It did do heating very well, but: 1. It took far too long to heat up. After 2 hours after being lit it had just about heated itself up. To get the whole boat cosy in cold weather it took a good 24 hours, and this was too long when my typical visits were about 5 days. 2. it was too difficult for a novice eg a visitor to control well. 3. It was a lot of work to faff around with sacks of smokeless fuel. They were dropped on the deck by the fuel boats which was great, but the sacks were 25Kg each and I had to rebag them to about 8Kg to be able to manage them in the boat. I mostly kept them in the bow locker. I therefore needed a replacement heating system and I went for a Webasto Thermotop C. I booked an installation by Steve Wedgewood and a few days before it was due, the Middlewich collapse occured. I had to move the boat from Nantwich, south round via Autherly Junction to Middlewich in double quick time and it was on this trip that I did my best single-handed trip of 27 (narrow) locks and 10 miles in one day. My thanks to a few people who helped, but my greatest thanks go to the people who came through the locks in the opposite direction at exactly the right time! Steve did an excellent job of installing the device but I did the radiators & pipework. I used JG plastic for the pipework but the first time I ran the system it expanded all over the place so I replaced it with 22mm copper Tectite pushfit, which incident I have described previously on this forum. I installed 5Kw worth of 3 radiators with NO valves of any kind. It was a revelation! It heated the boat cosy warm in under 2 hours (when the outside temp was ??)! The boiler noise in the engine bay was not a problem. I didn't get to fully understand how it worked with full power, half-power, self-shutdown etc before I sold the boat. Regaining the central saloon space was useful, as you would expect. Revisiting, I would definitely want to look at the latest Webasto offering which is supposed to handle throttling down without coking. The stove was great in its day but I'm too old for it now. If I was living aboard the cost issues of diesel heating would be a bigger factor than it was.

My stove is rated, at a fairly low setting, to use about 4.5 litres if on 24 hours. This heats 3 rads (very hot) and gets the hot water tank to warm (not much use). So say £1.50 a litre about £6.75 a day, about the cost of a third of a bag of coal. Added benefits for me, and can’t really cost them, no heavy lifting, no coal dust, no ash pan to sort, easy to light, instantly off at the turn of a button - and I personally just feel it is safer than coal, the area around the stove (I know this sounds daft but is true) does not get anywhere near as hot as a coal fire, but the radiant heat is the same. In other words, the wall and ceiling around it is only warm to the touch but the room is toasty. So diesel is still a little dearer than coal, but for me the added benefits more than make up for it. eta - just saw Goliaths comment - for the sake of comparison our boat is 70’ with, as Matty describes, a ‘lump’

Exactly. To the OP, as mentioned you need to close the vents on your stove once it's lit. The coal will last much longer if you do this. However I remember you only bought your boat a few months ago.....is the stove in good condition? If the rope seals have gone you'll never be able to control the fire so it's worth checking this. It's also worth experimenting with different types of smokeless coal as each stove reacts differently. For instance if I put about 3kg of Homefire Ovals my stove at home and close the vents it produces good heat for 30 hrs. If I try the same thing with Brazier it burns out in half the time. As to alternative sources of heat on a narrowboat.....a drip feed diesel stove but that will be more expensive to run than a correctly functioning multifuel stove and will cost a few thousand pounds to have fitted.....ditto a webasto with radiators which in any case is not suitable as a primary means to heat a boat. If you can't get your stove to perform satisfactorily, I'd probably advise replacing it with a second hand Morso Squirrel.....they come up on Ebay and the going rate for a decent one seems to be about £500.

You don't say if you have shorepower, this is likely to be cheapest source of units of electricity, and probably a good source of warmth. I have a Webasto with radiators, but it uses both diesel and electricity, so if you have to run the engine there is another cost. I use the stove in preference, Webasto kicks in on thermostat, eg 16/17 degrees but it is noisy, slow to heat the boat but quick to cool off I'm afraid that even though the weather has been mild, my stove has already cost about £120, this month, and I've put through an order of £185 which I hope will last the month 24/7. I think Excell was £13.50 last year and £17 now, plus the 5%tax. The only thing I can suggest is you try the coal cage and try to set the stove to a lower heat. Make sure the stove door is well sealed. I use premium fuel, it's £17.70 per 25kg. Worth while finding a good supplier, don't buy stuff from garages or grocery type supermarkets. I have curtains lined with insulated lining materials, that helps summer and winter . I also have big thick curtains at doors £120 Ebay again this insulates. Make sure your CO alarms are working.

Hi Tony This is interesting. Sorry, gave half a story. The boat builder just built the shell. Fit out is now a combination of me/friends and then an electrician and, of course, gas will be done by a professional too. I could use two calorifiers then? A larger and a smaller.... is the 'series' plumbing of them a complicated task? Limited knowledge here so any more info would be really useful. Thanks Thanks Mike The way I see it, the diesel central heating would cost £5k to install and realistically, I don't think I'd be using it at all in another year or two the way diesel prices are going.... I know the same is happening with gas, but gas heaters are a few hundred quid (Morco). It terrifies me I've had another diesel engine(!) never mind chucking money on plumbing/rads/units for central heating.... I'm building this boat as an 'apocolypse' boat!!! It's 70ft, two woodburners (not going down the back boiler route) and no central heating. Valid point re lugging the gas bottles v diesel and I am still considering getting a cheap diesel blow heater for additional heat should I need it/can't be a*sed firing up one of the woodburners, but it's options for hot water that's a bit of a bamboozle at the moment.

There will be loads of thing you think are really important from looking at youtube and hiring for a week, but which you later realise were largely a waste of money. Everyone's list will be different, but these are things I would want to check on if it was speccing a new boat: - Check the size of the shower they are proposing- some builders fit cubicles that are so compact they are almost impossible to use. - Make sure the bow gas locker can fit two large size bottles, mine can only fit one large and one small, and its a pain when swapping out empty bottles. - I would not consider an inverter of less than 2000 watts, and insist on pure sine if you have laptops- my old modified sine inverter bricked the power supplies on two laptops - At least 400Ah of lthium batteries- they will last 10 years or more if you look after them, and are worth the extra cost - A good alternator that uses a poly V belt, and not a cheap one with a single v belt like mine. Charging using a cheap alternator at 40 amps means running your engine for 3 hours every day in the winter (when there's no solar)- whereas charging with a decent alternator at 80-100 amps means you only run the engine for a bit over an hour each day to recharge. - I would always get at least 1000 watts of solar, then you are sorted for all your electricity between March and October, with no engine running to recharge batteries. You can fit them yourself, if you want to do that make sure the electric cupboard has space for one or two MPPT units and the wiring. - build in the option to divert your solar energy to heating up the water in summer. - A water level indicator on the water tank, and preferably one on the fuel tank. - Lots of big windows for lots of natural light - for heating, fit both diesel CH and also a stove, whether that's a SF stove or a diesel one - I would ask for dimmable LED ceiling lights, its nice to be able to soften the lighting a bit in the evenings - At least 100 gallons water tank - one of those compact washing machines fitted in the kitchen Thats just a few off the top of my head tbh, there are others.

Morning all, Im looking at installing diesel heating for domestic hot water and heating on a 45x10ft new build, but know little of the competing systems nor the considerations around system design. I've read various posts around their troublesome nature if not run for particular times, at particular capacities. Being totally in the dark, I was keen to have a conversation with both a supplier so that I can get an understanding of options and costs, but also some guidance on system design. What are the considerations for number radiators/heating capacity etc... etc If anyone has had good experience of firms who can provide that advice I'd be grateful for recommendations. Thanks Tim

What I am going to try to do is to give an idea of the sort of boats you could have hired in the 1970s: their specification, an illustration if possible, and the cost. But mainly to try to show the variety available, and the facilities each offered. I think things have changed a bit over the years. I will probably do it in bits because I am unhandy with scanning and such, and it may get boring. And it does I will stop. You, of course can decide for yourselves. My choice will not be yours. At least I hope not because one or two were pretty grim. I will start with Canal Pleasurecraft's Water Rat. It is 1969. To my mind this was a beautiful boat. If she had two faults it was perhaps she was a bit light and wind-taken. And she was slow. Powered by a Stuart Turner petrol engine, on a measured mile she made 2 1/2 mph flat out. But a fine boat and we were deeply apologetic to Mr Abbot for bashing her about in the old Harecastle Tunnel. Right in the middle where the roof of the tunnel sank right down, and bits of iron railing stuck out of the gloom, you could only see round the sides and it was easy to lose control and we did. Not the first time I think because when eventually we got out, the tunnel keeper lent us a mop and helped us wash off the coating of red oxide which covered the boat. He told us that we were the only boat scheduled to pass through that day. £22 per week at end of season. Great boat. Next, you could hire Redstart on the Brecon canal. £20 per week in 1970. A lovely canal, and in those days the lift bridge which was operated by turning a handle several hundred times was challenging. But we felt that the boat lacked character. It was cold at the end of the season. Heating was basic: a circular gas fire on a tube stuck onto a gas outlet. Also the propeller was so worn that it was barely effectual. If you chose this boat you might have been a bit disappointed, notwithstanding the beauty of the surroundings I am making a right mess of this. Anyway next is the Leeds and Liverpool Canal, and Wirral Dawn, part of Canal Boat Ltd's fleet. 1971. This company was operated by an elderly gentleman of military bearing, and formidable mien. We caused him pretty immediate concern when, after our first day, being unfamiliar with diesels, we turned the fuel off. Started the engine and drained the system. We were part way down the Wigan flight. We walked down the hill to a brick factory and explained our problem to the foreman. " I'll send a fitter up, don't you worry." Sure enough not one but three fitters climbed on board and examined the engine. But something got dropped in the bilges and after spending more than an hour they said they were sorry but they just had to get back. But someone rang up the base for us and and the owner arrived with Pip his fitter. He looked at us very sternly. By then we had found the missing bit and handed it to him. He said to Pip " We will have to do a cold start, do you think we need to do a cold start?". Dreadful clatters and black smoke and the engine started. The owner and Pip departed. But at bridge 43 when backing to the swing bridge we snapped the tiller off. We towed the boat back to Appley Lock. It was a Sunday afternoon. The owner arrived, took the rudder and tiller away, and returned with it in two hours, welded back together. We said we were sorry for all the trouble. He said to us " Well, I'd grumble a bit if you had done it on purpose. Can you honestly say you did it on purpose?" " Well, no." " Well there you are then." A boat of great character, very noisy air cooled engine and a remarkable list. £57 for the two weeks, plus £10 deposit refunded less fuel and a broken pyrex lid. An unforgettable experience on a great boat on a great canal with the very last vestiges of commercial carrying to Wigan Power Station. Right I am going to stop here. There is a long way to go and I am getting stuck. I will see what it looks like and then decide whether to go on.

I suppose Arthur would like this posting in the Political section - if so he is welcome to ask the mods to move it. Sometimes snaking through the centre of bustling cities, other times skirting around grassy banks near scraps of land far from any trace of society, Britain's canal system works it away around nearly 5,000 miles of the country. Along these waters, you will find boats of all shapes and sizes whose owners come from every community you can imagine. There are tens of thousands of them, the majority using their boats semi-regularly, perhaps on weekends or during holidays. There is, however, a small, tight-knit yet growing community who call their narrow boats home - around 8,000 of them, who, for the most part, are pensioners. People like Keith Gudgin, a 69-year-old who for the past 10 years has drifted amiably around Britain in his 40-foot narrow boat. "I love this way of life," he said, when Express.co.uk visited him. It's cold on the stretch of Fazeley and Birmingham canal he has moored up at, a quaint waterway in-between major urban hubs, though backing onto what looks like a noisy lorry park. By the time we arrive, Keith has had his heating on since the day before, and will keep the coal stove ticking over for 24 hours a day, seven days a week. He says his home is warm and snug, and that it won't take much to heat the entire place up, nothing like a flat or a house, or a bungalow, like where he used to live. But a bag of 25kg coal lasts him just six days, and it burns fast. Although he is relatively comfortable, things are quickly changing. The country is in the throes of a recession. Nearly everything, from foodstuffs to fuel, is rising in cost. It has hit boaters particularly hard, for varying reasons. For those like Keith, their future on the canals remains uncertain. According to the Canal and River Trust, the charity that looks after around 2,000 miles of canal in England and Wales, a third of their estimated 35,000 licence holders, some 34 percent are aged 65-74, by far the highest proportion. This is followed closely only by the 55-64 age group (31.6 percent). The 65-74-year-olds have recently taken a priority spot in the headlines. Millions of them eagerly watched Chancellor Jeremy Hunt's Autumn Budget, in which he confirmed that their state pensions would rise in line with the 10.1 percent rate of inflation. It was a boon to many, although concerns about the affordability of things remain. Perhaps the biggest concern is energy costs. The Government has moved to at least temporarily blunt soaring bills by introducing the energy bills support scheme (EBSS), set to last from October 2022 to March 2023. Households up and down the country will be given £400 towards their energy bills, roughly £66 a month. But there's a catch: it's only available to those with a domestic energy supply contract. Pensioners like Keith rely on things like coal to heat their homes. Sourcing a domestic electricity connection is simply out of the question. A document published by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (DBEIS) earlier this year suggested that up to "400,000 would not receive EBSS support due to these circumstances compared with approximately 29 million that will." It is true that Keith and other boaters don't have domestic energy supply costs to grapple with, and the energy regulator Ofgem is set to raise its price cap for the average UK home by 21 percent to £4,279 from January 2023. Still, there are costs: his coal to heat the boat, diesel to sail - which he must do every 14 days according to the law - and other boat-specific energy sources, some of which have shot up by almost 50 percent. The pension increase will help, as will the winter fuel allowance, available to all pensioners. But there is a lingering sense that this won't last. State Pension payments are crucial to boost your retirement income, but the process can seem daunting. "I'm coping, for now," Keith said. "But if it carries on the way it is at the moment, without that increase in my pension, give me six months and I would've started to struggle - struggle with all of it. "My fuel costs have gone up 40 percent. Diesel costs have gone up 35-40 percent. Food's going up at a phenomenal rate." When initially contacted by Express.co.uk, the DBEIS said: "Households not on standard gas or electricity contracts, including those who live on boats, will receive support equivalent to both the Energy Price Guarantee, which limits what households can be charged, and the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which provides a £400 rebate to bill payers." Since then, and just days after the Daily Express and Silver Voices highlighted the issue, the Government announced its plans to introduce an Energy Bills Support Scheme Alternative Funding (EBSS Alternative Funding) scheme which will provide those without a "direct relationship to a domestic energy supplier" with a £400 discount on their fuel bills. There will also be a £200 payment for those who use alternative fuels such as biomass or heating oil. But the schemes come months after those rolled out to millions of other Britons, and far later than some of the sub-zero temperatures that have hit the UK, some parts of the country plunged to as low as -15.7C. Keith was for a time trapped on his narrow boat, the canal he was moored on completely frozen over. Being stuck means not being able to travel to pick up coal. Not having any coal means going cold. Despite the support, very quickly, the numbers aren't adding up. Energy and consumer goods are just one side of the coin. The Canal and River Trust recently announced their highest-ever licence-fee increase, meaning for those like Keith, a rise in pension payments is immediately negated.

The ban on IC engines is proposed but to actually make it happen -- without just replacing them with IC generators, which is what happens today -- charging points around the canal/river system will be needed, just like for EV on the roads. Today there is no sensible plan from CART and/or the government on how to make this happen, and not even a plan for a plan... 😞 The problem with EV electric motors for installation on boats -- especially DIY! -- is that they (and the batteries and controllers and chargers) use 400V DC, great for reducing wire size but a nightmare for safety and installation standards -- which is why car mechanics need special training and certification to be allowed to work on them. HV DC is essential for EV because of the huge power levels (>100kW) which make 48V DC impossible, this is not the case for boats which is why they're mostly 48V. It'll be interesting to see if/when boats switch over from LV DC to HV DC, I suspect it will happen eventually just because of the availability of kit but absolutely nobody is going that way today in the "small boat" world -- high-powered electric propulsion for things like ferries is already 400V or higher but they can put up with the HV problems. I agree completely with your comments about solar; my power audit gave about 14kWh/day consumption for a typical full day of canal cruising, and solar (2kWp) would yield about 7kWh/day on average in summer. That's for a narrowboat with about 2/3 of the roof covered with panels, fitting more is difficult, and vertical panels on the sides don't give much power. The big problem is in winter, less than 2kWh/day won't get you very far, in fact probably nowhere once domestic 230Vac power consumption is added in... 😞 Even if the cost of a new electric installation becomes cheaper than diesel (which will happen, just like for EVs) the cost of ripping out a diesel and replacing it will still be high for some people as you say, they'll presumably just put this off until they have no choice. If they have to replace a dead diesel, they should be able to replace it with cheap secondhand electric by then -- but still likely to be more expensive to do... 😞 You're right, we are approaching the end of an era where cheap fossil fuel could be used to power even cheaper transport and provide heating, this applies to cars, motorbikes, trucks, trains, boats, ships, and houses (for heating). Change has to happen, and it will be more painful for some -- but the same applies to all aspects of lifestyle, climate change can't be ignored... 😉 I'm confused about your question -- the problem isn't whether a bigger prop can be fitted in (it can), it's what effect that has on the motor power output...