When is an engine shot?

[Felshampo]

I am looking at old boats and wondered if there is any way of gauging the state of the engine by looking at the hours. They are often advertised as low hours. Is this a good guide to whether the engine is knackered or still has plenty of life left. Can you do this with narrow boat diesel engines? It can give you a good idea with car engines.

I appreciate there are lots of other variables such as size of boat, hp, canals vs river use, use as a generator etc. Also has it been serviced regularly. Has it had problems with water or diesel bug. What is the alignment of the engine like or pylon drive.

What do members think?

[Paul C]

Simple answer: no, hours can't be used as a definitive guide to engine condition, but it gives a few pointers.

 

Starting from cold would be a reasonable test to do, after all you can put your hand on an engine to check it really is cold, then ask the owner to start it. And the amount (and colour) of smoke gives good clues. I suppose if it were a really expensive engine then you could ask for a small sample of the engine oil and send it off.

 

Another thing would be to ask for records of regular servicing - receipts for the work done, or filters/oil etc.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Paul C

[Alan de Enfield]

I believe that diesels like to 'run', a poorly maintained low hours engine will have many more problems than a well maintained high hours engine.

 

Our Lister has over 9,000 hours and is sweet as a nut, when compared to our friend's BMC 1800 which has 600 hours on it (and is older than ours)

 

London taxi's regularly achieve over 250,000 miles - at an average of 20mph thats 12,500 hours. It is probably a fair analogy as Taxi engines are fairly lightly loaded as are canal boat engines.

 

It comes down to four things :

 

Maintenance

Service

Maintenance

Service

[alan_fincher]

How do you know what the engine hours are anyway?

 

If you believed the hour counter on my BMC 1800, it has only done less than 500, but that doesn't address the fact that the first hour counter didn't go in until the boat was more than a dozen years old, and since then the hour counter has failed twice, and had to be replaced each time, after which it always reads zero hours again.

 

I'm fairly certain that on that type of electronic unit you can reset the number, so anybody who wanted to deceive probably could.

 

The elecro-mechanical hour counter I recently fitted in the other boat indicates it doesn't yet need its first oil change, despite being a 1963 engine! If you wire it backwards, it can be made to count downwards, I think!

[RLWP]

Also, 'shot' is a tricky term. A modern engine is more likely to be 'shot' - beyond economic repair - than an ancient one.

 

You can really only assess each engine as you find it. Age, hours or anything else don't really tell you anything. I suppose genuine low hours might be a helpful indication

 

Richard

Edited May 3, 2014 by RLWP

[Neil2]

Anecdotally, thinking about all the engine issues on the forum that seem to happen to new owners, I don't think prospective purchasers pay enough attention to this.

 

In the automotive world, if looking at a secondhand car we expect to see a proper service history with regular oil changes etc and I for one would be extremely wary of anything that didn't pass this test. But folk buy narrowboats all the time with no history whatsoever.

 

It doesn't cost much to have the oil tested, so If I was looking at a boat with no history, or not much history, I'd have the oil analysed and assume the worst if the results were negative.

 

Alan is so right, BTW, I once looked at a diesel Renault Espace that had 750,000 miles on the clock. It had it's original engine, with no major work done but had been serviced on the nail its whole life.

[Paul C]

 

Alan is so right, BTW, I once looked at a diesel Renault Espace that had 750,000 miles on the clock. It had it's original engine, with no major work done but had been serviced on the nail its whole life.

 

What kind of condition was the interior????

[OldGoat]

 

What kind of condition was the interior????

 

Good point - Newcomers on here say "we love the boat" and then describe the interior fittings.

Sometimes they (or the broker) shows the engine bay.

Rusty,

Dark,

Dank.

 

'nuff said

 

Contentious, I know, but the engine type is also very important. True automotive types are not the best. Yes, folks love their BMCs, probably because they were inexpensive, but they don't marinise well and aren't good at low power running.

 

A dumper truck (etc) industrial is designed to run at tickover for long periods, has a low power rev: range and much more solid mechanicals. Because they are designed to have multiple bolt-ons, they are easier to add additional alternators, water pumps, and a lot more besides.

 

There will be disagreements, but I'll stick to my guns.

[Felshampo]

What would you test the oil for if you sent it off? And where would you send it.

I have listened to a lot of engines but I am not very good at telling the good from the less good.

Can you compare car engines which are built in thier millions with marine engines which have only been built in their thousands for quality and longevity.

[Tony Brooks]

Apart from Bukh & Volvo's MD range I suspect and "at the time" modern engine fitted into a canal boat since the 1960's was a marine engine. The vast majority are industrial or vehicle engines.

[Paul C]

Can you compare car engines which are built in thier millions with marine engines which have only been built in their thousands for quality and longevity.

 

Well yes, because number of units manufactured doesn't necessarily correlate with quality or longevity. Mitsubishi built loads of 2.8 diesels in the Mk2 Pajero but they're plagued with reliability issues. However Rolls Royce, in the same era, built very few V8s and they are generally very reliable.

[Felshampo]

Well yes, because number of units manufactured doesn't necessarily correlate with quality or longevity. Mitsubishi built loads of 2.8 diesels in the Mk2 Pajero but they're plagued with reliability issues. However Rolls Royce, in the same era, built very few V8s and they are generally very reliable.

I appreciate that but the point I was making is how reliable modern cars are. I have a ten year old mondeo that has done 85000 has only been serviced three or four times and yet it still sweet according to my garage. Are modern deisel engines like Rolls Royce?

[Paul C]

I'd say yes, modern diesels are like your Mondeo engine in that they're very reliable.

[Hawkmoth]

Service records may give an indication of how well looked after the engine has been, but what about those of us who do our own servicing?

I do record when I've done the oil and fuel filter changes. These, of course, can be falsified if you really wanted to.

Bob

[Keeping Up]

Our 'modern' Perkins engine has done about 15,000 hours and has been declared beyond economic repair. All it really needs is new seals everywhere including front and rear of the crankshaft, new bearings, new pistons and rings plus maybe a rebore, new valves and valve gear and associated bits and reseating, a new oil pump water pump and thermostat, various core plugs drilling out and tapping for threaded replacements, and new gaskets all round. That plus the gearbox uses a litre of oil per hour. I think replacement is becoming inevitable.

[RLWP]

Have you considered Radweld, an oil change and turning the radio up?

 

Richard

[Arthur Brown]

Just sitting there unused will do more long term harm to an engine than regular reasonable use, "hours run" may actually be a negative guide to engine condition.

[jonathanA]

Just sitting there unused will do more long term harm to an engine than regular reasonable use, "hours run" may actually be a negative guide to engine condition.

 

I don't follow the logic here ? I've seen lots of standby generators that do nothing for months but start first time every time . I can see how if the engine was really left idle for years oil would presumably deteriorate and things would rust or corrode.. There are probably thousands of standby generators that sit idle for months then have to run for days non stop and do quite happily.

 

Of course these sets are properly maintained.....

[MtB]

When is an engine shot?

 

 

When (as Richard says) it's a modern engine and either you can't get the parts to fix it, or fixing it costs more than a new one.

 

A vintage engine is never 'shot'. The owner just doesn't have deep enough pockets.

 

 

MtB

Edited May 3, 2014 by Mike the Boilerman

[canals are us?]

I always think if an engine is good if it doesn't have any running problems, or use water or oil, and no smoke on start up or under acceleration.

My beta 1305 seems good on all counts and was apparently serviced by the previous owner. I have had it serviced this year and will service it myself next spring.

 

My 25 year old Volvo 240 petrol, automatic has done 203,000miles and still runs very well. In the 4.5 years of ownership and the 6th owner it hasn't ever broken down or never refused to start. I use it daily as it's my only car and cover 10,000 miles a year. It was cheap to buy at £350. I really like my GLT.

 

James

[Neil2]

..............My 25 year old Volvo 240 petrol, automatic has done 203,000miles and still runs very well. In the 4.5 years of ownership and the 6th owner it hasn't ever broken down or never refused to start. I use it daily as it's my only car and cover 10,000 miles a year. It was cheap to buy at £350. I really like my GLT.

 

James

You do realise what you've just done don't you......

 

 

 

As others have said with most narrowboat engines anything can be salvaged, but I would still assume the worst in the absence of any evidence that regular oil changes have been carried out.

 

A smoky diesel can be temporarily cured, but even a last minute change of oil can't fool an oil analysis. There are several companies on the net that offer this service to the consumer now, I think I used "Oil Lab". They send you a kit to extract the oil and send it away and the results are emailed back. What you pay depends on the level of detail but basically you want to know whether there are excessively high levels of iron, copper, aluminium, and water.

[Guest]

Apart from Bukh & Volvo's MD range I suspect and "at the time" modern engine fitted into a canal boat since the 1960's was a marine engine. The vast majority are industrial or vehicle engines.

Talking to a boat owner today with a tiny Bukh engine fitted. Quite old and long hours and ran beautifully.

 

The guy who used to build Thornycroft engines once advised me to never try and rebuild the Mitsubishi engines (Thonycroft, Vetus etc.) as it would cost a king's ransom. Anything major and it is seemingly much cheaper to buy a new engine unit, and transfer the marinising parts. I am told these engines are easily good for 10,000+ hrs with correct servicing.

 

The first boat I bought had an oil analysis done as part of the survey. It revealed that the wrong type of oil had been used at the last service, but seemingly had done no harm in the short time it had been in there.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Guest