Filling A Propane Tank At A Petrol Station? Safe??

[Biggles]

I saw this in my search for something else gas related

 

Linky

 

Any thought on them?. Could save a small fortune on marina prices.

 

Biggles

[denboy]

looks good on paper,but do filling stations actually allow you to fill them?how many litres are there in a 13kg bottle?

[alan_fincher]

I saw this in my search for something else gas related

 

Linky

 

Any thought on them?. Could save a small fortune on marina prices.

 

Biggles

The BSS certainly have a view on user refillable bottles, but I think they are talking about ones designed for that purpose, not you taking one that isn't, and doing it anyway.

 

There is certainly a potential issue about over-filling, and I think that is likely to arise if you just start stuffing LPG in a cylinder that has no more sophistication than a valve on top.

 

I'd contact the BSS Office for advice, but here's a starting point......

 

BSS PDF Acrobat file link.

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

Please moor at least half a mile from me, and don't share locks until you have got this idea formally OKed!

Edited October 7, 2009 by alan_fincher

[paulcatchpole]

I saw this in my search for something else gas related

 

Linky

 

Any thought on them?. Could save a small fortune on marina prices.

 

Biggles

 

Having converted a couple of cars to run on LPG, I considered this recently...

 

I'd do it buy fitting a proper filler to the car - either in the rear wing, or on a towbar mount - then you can route it into the boot, to an adaptor like that, on a hose pigtail, incorporating an 80% fill valve into the pipework. That way it'd be transparent to the garage as you'd look like anyone else filling up with LPG...

 

I think I worked the cost out to be about 50% of the exchange cost for a 13kg...

 

PC

[denboy]

The BSS certainly have a view on user refillable bottles, but I think they are talking about ones designed for that purpose, not you taking one that isn't, and doing it anyway.

 

There is certainly a potential issue about over-filling, and I think that is likely to arise if you just start stuffing LPG in a cylinder that has no more sophistication than a valve on top.

 

I'd contact the BSS Office for advice, but here's a starting point......

 

BSS PDF Acrobat file link.

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

Please moor at least half a mile from me, and don't share locks until you have got this idea formally OKed!

Think you will find that that addition on the bss is for a different type of lpg container,there was a thread about them a while back ,i used to run a lpg car and never managed to over fill it

Edited October 7, 2009 by denboy

[alan_fincher]

Think you will find that that addition on the bss is for a different type of lpg container,there was a thread about them a while back ,i used to run a lpg car and never managed to over fill it

Yes,

 

I acknowledged that the BSS reference was to cylinders designed for self refill, not for ones which are not.

 

Perhaps your car actually incorporated a valve that prevents overfilling, whereas a good old steel 13KG Calor cylinder definitely will not ?

[nb Innisfree]

Reminds of when I joined the Fire Service in'74, then we used to fill backpack propane frame cyls by up ending a 19kg propane bottle on a 45gal drum and pipe propane straight in! H&S? didn't need it then

[denboy]

no idea how it worked just plugged in pressed button and when it was full it would stop

[colin stone]

The LPGA, who control anything LPG, will not permit the filling of own bottles on a H&S basis - the forecourt staff are not trained to monitor the filling of bottles. They are however trained to monitor the refuelling of cars. A barking mad argument - with a bottle you can see the entire filling line, with a car the fillng line cannot be seen.

 

However, that is not all. LPG bottles must only be filled to 80% of their capacity and the standard bottle does not have a shut off valve. They are filled by Calor etc. There is the certain danger that the Darwin Award candidates will exceed the 80%, and on a hot day!!!!. 13kg is approx 26 litres.

 

Even if you have one of these bottles - Gas Refill - which do shut off at 80% full, the LPGA still take a dim view as at para 1. Anything that upsets their monopoly is not allowed!!!

 

I would fit a couple into a car and have a car refill socket. Then the forecourt staff and LPGA are none the wiser.

 

Good money being made, until the customers get spotted!!!

Edited October 7, 2009 by colin stone

[Phil Ambrose]

Yes,

 

I acknowledged that the BSS reference was to cylinders designed for self refill, not for ones which are not.

 

Perhaps your car actually incorporated a valve that prevents overfilling, whereas a good old steel 13KG Calor cylinder definitely will not ?

 

I worked for Elf Flexigas for a while and bottles are filled on a scale so the correct weight of LPG was put in each bottle, scale cut off when correct weight was reached, easy innit

[paulcatchpole]

i used to run a lpg car and never managed to over fill it

 

Because of the 80% fill valve on the tank multivalve (or on one of the four ports, on a multi-port tank)...

 

PC

[denboy]

Because of the 80% fill valve on the tank multivalve (or on one of the four ports, on a multi-port tank)...

 

PC

 

i knew techno magic was involved somewhere

[Phoenix_V]

I would question whether it is that much cheaper.

I believe the garage price is about 45p per litre but a litre of propane is only half a kilo so the price per kilo is about 90pence.

I am currently buying bottled gas at about £13 per 11 litre bottle about 30 pence more per kilo delivered to the door.

[denboy]

I would question whether it is that much cheaper.

I believe the garage price is about 45p per litre but a litre of propane is only half a kilo so the price per kilo is about 90pence.

I am currently buying bottled gas at about £13 per 11 litre bottle about 30 pence more per kilo delivered to the door.

 

£23.60 for a 13 kg round these parts

[Morphyous]

Think you will find that that addition on the bss is for a different type of lpg container,there was a thread about them a while back ,i used to run a lpg car and never managed to over fill it

You are correct, you can only put in 80% of capacity.

there is a toilet ballcock type of system in the tank to

stop overfilling.

[sueb]

Some motorhomes use refillable gas tanks for both propulsion and heating/cooking.

Sue

[Nickhlx]

Some motorhomes use refillable gas tanks for both propulsion and heating/cooking.

Sue

 

Hot Air Balloon flight tanks are frequently liquid re-filled after a flight by inverting a large (104) red cylinder of propane, so liquid comes out, and feeds into the main outlet of the flight cylinder.

 

The top of the tank has a small, hand-operated screw valve, below which is connected a short ( maybe 4" / 100mm) dip tube. The procedure for filling is to open this valve a little whilst filling, and when liquid is ejected, it is filled to the max safe level and filling ceases. Some balloonists have been known to actually overfill by a small amount as the tank will be used / emptied again within the hour, during which short period the temperature will hardly change at all.

 

The danger is that liquid propane does expand significantly with increase in temperature, and if sufficient space is not left at the top of the (any) tank, it will definitely rupture the tank, with no doubt catastrophic results. However in some 12 years of ballooning, I have never heard of such an event, and balloons do fly even in tropical temperatures, from which I assume that the margin of safety built in to the tanks is much more than will ever be encountered.

 

My point is that if you fill your own tanks you MUST be certain that there is definitely this expansion space above the full level. I believe that most (all ?) certified portable tanks will have stamped into them the max safe weight of propane/butane it can hold, so you can check contents by weight.

 

Nick

[mayalld]

I saw this in my search for something else gas related

 

Linky

 

Any thought on them?. Could save a small fortune on marina prices.

 

Biggles

 

Yes, if this guy carries on selling these things, somebody is going to end up dead.

[Chris Pink]

Yes, if this guy carries on selling these things, somebody is going to end up dead.

 

I tend you agree with you, but the reality is that Calor sell propane at over twice what you can get it from the garage down the road. (from my calculation at 0.51kg per litre.

 

So if anyone ends up dead as a result i would blame Calor's greed.

[mikevye]

Yes, if this guy carries on selling these things, somebody is going to end up dead.

 

In the hands of someone conversant with refill procedures I think it would be iffy but in the hands of yer average Mr stupid it would be lethal, Daves right! Left hand threads, gas tight joints, forecourt logistics, overfilling caused by distractions (kids kicking off) nightmare waiting to happen!

[Chris Pink]

In the hands of someone conversant with refill procedures I think it would be iffy but in the hands of yer average Mr stupid it would be lethal, Daves right! Left hand threads, gas tight joints, forecourt logistics, overfilling caused by distractions (kids kicking off) nightmare waiting to happen!

 

 

A bit of research shows refillable bottles becoming more and more common. Gaslow is one that springs out. So this is going to happen.

 

Why is this more iffy than petrol?

 

The thing i have quite grasped is why the refilling kit (for the Gaslow bottle for example) is separate, Surely common sense implies that an integral system (like on a car) is far safer.

[alan_fincher]

A bit of research shows refillable bottles becoming more and more common. Gaslow is one that springs out. So this is going to happen.

 

Why is this more iffy than petrol?

 

The thing i have quite grasped is why the refilling kit (for the Gaslow bottle for example) is separate, Surely common sense implies that an integral system (like on a car) is far safer.

Without being too knowledgeable, I'll admit, I feel deeply more uncomfortable about someone trying to refill commercial cylinders, (not designed for self-refill), with some bit of e-Bay kit, than I do with systems actually designed and marketed for this purpose.

 

Unless I'm missing something, (and I probably am), the e-Bay system seems to rely on never attempting it with a cylinder that is other than totally empty, then filling with a measured amount of liquid gas from a filling station.

 

It seems inevitable that some people would end up putting in too much, either by accident, or design, and if they have done so, it's a potential accident waiting to happen. (They are hardly likely to let some out, even if they know they have, are they ?

 

Are those e-Bay things actually "legal", and how would your average filling station react if you parked a red calor cylinder by the pump, and commenced filling it ?

[Machpoint005]

A bit of research shows refillable bottles becoming more and more common. Gaslow is one that springs out. So this is going to happen.

 

Why is this more iffy than petrol?

 

Simple. Propane is a heck of a lot more volatile than octane. It will go bang at the slightest provocation: excess pressure in the container being one reason. Being gaseous at normal temperatures it is much more dangerous than petrol, which at least stays liquid.

 

Add to the volatility the fact that the substance is extremely flammable (well, it would be...) and you have a recipe for disaster. It would not be Calor Gas's fault, it would be the fault of the idiot who overfilled the cylinder, or made a pig's ear of the process. It's no good blaming Calor's 'greed' if it's your own greed that causes the explosion.

 

There are all sorts of iffy, dangerous and illegal things on Fleabay - this is one anybody with a brain should leave well alone, IMO.

[colin stone]

I would question whether it is that much cheaper.

I believe the garage price is about 45p per litre but a litre of propane is only half a kilo so the price per kilo is about 90pence.

I am currently buying bottled gas at about £13 per 11 litre bottle about 30 pence more per kilo delivered to the door.

 

Good point. My last Flogas 11kg bottles were just under £12 each. Takes a long time to recoup the cost of the adapter!!

 

Are those e-Bay things actually "legal", and how would your average filling station react if you parked a red calor cylinder by the pump, and commenced filling it ?

 

They will not allow it if they spot you:

 

"The LPGA, who control anything LPG, will not permit the filling of own bottles on a H&S basis - the forecourt staff are not trained to monitor the filling of bottles. They are however trained to monitor the refuelling of cars. A barking mad argument - with a bottle you can see the entire filling line, with a car the fillng line cannot be seen."

[mayalld]

I tend you agree with you, but the reality is that Calor sell propane at over twice what you can get it from the garage down the road. (from my calculation at 0.51kg per litre.

 

So if anyone ends up dead as a result i would blame Calor's greed.

 

That is a function of the packaging.

 

disributing gas in bottles means that you are spending a lot of money carting iron about (the weight of a cylinder is actually more than the weight of the gas that it contains), and a lot of employee time filling the bottles,

 

So, it isn't greed, it is reflecting your costs for the different modes of delivery.

 

This heath-robinson device is inherently dangerous, and regardless of what anybody may think, I have reported it to e-bay.