Filling A Propane Tank At A Petrol Station? Safe??

[alan_fincher]

Again I'm out of my depth, but it seems that the requirement for genuine self sfill arrangements is that around 20% is left unfilled, (certainly what the BSS document implies).

 

I believe a cylinder to be potentially dangerous long before completely full of liquid, and does not necxcessarily only become so when it's bursting at the seams.

 

Calor's on site says....

 

The percentage fill varies with the size of cylinder, but normally has a maximum fill of 80 to 87%.

 

I'm not on the boat, so can't examine a 13KG Calor Propane. However a couple of Butane cylinders at home, (one Calor one Flogas), look like they may have a valve that blows at a certain point, but rather like it just fails open, and may not be something that resets once a more sensible pressure is reached.

 

As I said earlier, I get the impression none of us know enough to consider dabbling in this - I certainly don't!

[Biggles]

Mayalld

 

You can never know the safe working pressure of any cylinder. All you can know is the result of the last safety test. I have just looked a bottle and it says tested to 29 bar for Propane and 31 bar fro butane.

 

I recall reading that these tanks only need testing every 15 years. An air receiver in a workshop at 10 - 15 bar need a cert for insurance every year! A diving air tank is at around 220 bar and needs a test every 5 years.

 

I have googled the pressure in an LPG tank but can't seem to get an answer.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Biggles

[Machpoint005]

As a former Engineer I installed a fragmentation plant the basic description was a rotating drum with steel hammers attached, encased in a steel box the purpose of which was to rip cars apart and deliver steel fragments ready to go to a steel plant. Some idiot decided to leave a propane bottle in the boot of a car presumably to add weight which was not noticed by the crane driver loading the machine. The resultant explosion blew out the windows of the control tower severely damaged the machine and could be heard for miles. Not dangerous eh!

Quite so. Without wishing to labour the point, petrol in a container, hit with large hammer, doesn't go bang (unless there'a a spark).

 

LPG can, and does, and when it goes bang, it often catches fire too. Bits of shrapnel rapidly spread over a wide area, killing and maining innocent people. We lock people up for doing that on purpose. Nasty stuff, LPG. Treat with extreme caution.

 

Or to quote another engineering adage: if you don't understand it, don't feck with it!

 

Or will it fill the bottle untill the weakest part goes pop, and spill the LPG all over the forecourt?

Pop hardly covers it.

But the liquid will boil incredibly quickly. Put that cig...... too late.

[nb Innisfree]

As an ex firefighter it's been many years since I was genned up on LPG but I think the pressure release plug goes of somewhere in the region of 300 psi? IIRC correctly. this is what usually happens when they are involved in fire which prevents the cyl rupturing (still a bit hairy though!) but if heat build up is rapid enough then it can still explode. LPG cyls are built to a high standard to withstand abuse, they make great air receivers! In 28 yrs active service I have never seen one explode tho it used to make youre arse twitch if there was a possibility of one in premises you had to enter!

[mayalld]

Or to quote another engineering adage: if you don't understand it, don't feck with it!

 

Sounds like very good advice.

[Nickhlx]

I have just spoken to a Gas Bottle supplier at length and he has confirmed the folowing

 

- The e.g. 13Kg bottles of today ARE fitted with a pressure release valve, which would release excess pressure if it got to that level. They USED to not have

safety vents years (decades ?) ago, but today they do.

 

- The "13 Kgs" refers to the weight of gas in the bottle

 

- Propane and Butane are sufficiently close in density to not worry about the difference making a material difference in the volume they occupy.

 

- IF the filling pump could apply enough pressure to the bottle being filled before either its own pressure limit switch within the pump switched it off, the

valve would vent the excess pressure.....

 

- If e.g someone did manage to fill it 100%, then any warming would indeed start the bottle venting and the smell of gas would probably be noticed.

 

- If a bottle were to be filled to 100%, it would initially spray out liquid gas if the valve were opened, so there is an easy way to "get rid of excess", although

a nice wide open space ( field) would be desirable...

 

- It IS illegal to refill gas bottles.

 

So, if it were not illegal, I would have no fears about using this device, and would merely check weigh after getting it home, or fill it with it sitting on a bathroom scale. However, it IS illegal, and since I use such a tiny amount, it is of no interest to me anyway, so I won't be buying one...

 

Hope that fills in a few doubts for anyone....

 

Nick

[WotEver]

- It IS illegal to refill gas bottles.

 

That finishes the whole topic quite neatly, I would have thought.

[mayalld]

That finishes the whole topic quite neatly, I would have thought.

 

Indeed, however, it would be nice to have a cite for this.

[alan_fincher]

- It IS illegal to refill gas bottles.

Presumably more fully...

 

It IS illegal for the general public to refill gas bottles not specifically designed to be self-refillable.

 

It would be interesting then if it's also illegal to openly sell something that makes it easily possible.

 

 

That finishes the whole topic quite neatly, I would have thought.

Well we know that views on here differ about how "illegal" you can go on certain matters!

Edited October 8, 2009 by alan_fincher

[Grace and Favour]

It IS illegal for the general public to refill gas bottles not specifically designed to be self-refillable.

 

It would be interesting then if it's also illegal to openly sell something that makes it easily possible.

 

If one assumes the validity of the statements above . . .

 

Should we not be reporting the seller of the 'refill valves' to Ebay - and maybe even save some poor muppet from inadvertently creating a fireball in his boot / boat / tent / caravan (etc)?

Edited October 8, 2009 by Grace & Favour

[County4x4]

Already been done - post 25

 

Andy

[mayalld]

If one assumes the validity of the statements above . . .

 

Should we not be reporting the seller of the 'refill valves' to Ebay - and maybe even save some poor muppet from inadvertently creating a fireball in his boot / boat / tent / caravan (etc)?

 

Already done. I have also been in touch with Lincolnshire Trading Standards and the BSS office.

[Albion]

snipped

- If e.g someone did manage to fill it 100%, then any warming would indeed start the bottle venting and the smell of gas would probably be noticed.

 

What worries me about this scenario is that the bottle is over-filled and put in the warm boot of a car. The gas vents off and the driver is smoking.

I once went on a gas safety course with BOC and one of the black museum photos/videos that they showed actually showed a picture of the aftermath of a Propane bottle leak in a plumbers van. The plumber was a smoker. There wasn't anything left of the top and sides of the van. The worst thing though was that you could just make out only the lower torso and legs of the plumber sitting in what remained of the driver's seat.

Not for me a home refillable system, I think.

Roger

[Radiomariner]

As a BSS examiner I am extremely concerned about this issue. I now must ask myself if a regular gas bottle has been overfilled. No way of telling. Must I now ask the owner and try to detect signs of "porky pies"?

It is evident that many of you are not fully aware of the dangers. The analogy used by an earlier post "the knife", is bad, it's dangers are obvious to an imbacile. (But many imbacile's carry them around, but thats another story)

The dangers in this case are not obvious and need thinking through.

Although the possibility of an exploding cylinder is present, when a bottle is overfilled, but the greater likelyhood is that of liquid passing into and through the regulator and expanding rapidly on the low pressure side which is not designed for such high pressure. (The regulator will not handle the liquid gas very well!). The damaged regulator will most certainly allow LPG at full bottle pressure to enter the boat via ruptured pipe or components. Now THERE is your potential catastrophy. (The secondary explosion will probably be the gas bottle!)

 

I too am alerting my office to this thread.

 

Edited to add, this danger is also present when bottles in use are not in an upright position. One of the main reasons for the BSS Examiner insisting that your bottles are secure

Edited October 11, 2009 by Radiomariner

[smileypete]

As a BSS examiner I am extremely concerned about this issue. I now must ask myself if a regular gas bottle has been overfilled. No way of telling. Must I now ask the owner and try to detect signs of "porky pies"?

It is evident that many of you are not fully aware of the dangers. The analogy used by an earlier post "the knife", is bad, it's dangers are obvious to an imbacile. (But many imbacile's carry them around, but thats another story)

The dangers in this case are not obvious and need thinking through.

Although the possibility of an exploding cylinder is present, when a bottle is overfilled, but the greater likelyhood is that of liquid passing into and through the regulator and expanding rapidly on the low pressure side which is not designed for such high pressure. (The regulator will not handle the liquid gas very well!). The damaged regulator will most certainly allow LPG at full bottle pressure to enter the boat via ruptured pipe or components. Now THERE is your potential catastrophy. (The secondary explosion will probably be the gas bottle!)

 

I too am alerting my office to this thread.

 

Edited to add, this danger is also present when bottles in use are not in an upright position. One of the main reasons for the BSS Examiner insisting that your bottles are secure

 

So what sort of pressure do you expect liquid butane creates at say 37°C?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Barry]

I'm curious about this.

 

It sounds logical that all cylinders might have a protection "safety valve" against catastrophic failure.

 

But if they do, why is there such concern whenever LPG cylinders are stored at the site of a blaze.

 

Surely they would not then explode, (as they are videoed doing), but would instead just turn into giant flame-throwers.

 

Fire-fighters seem petrified of them going up, not just issuing out sheets of flame.

 

We have a few fire-fighters on here, so can someone enlighten us. Do Propane cylinders ever go "bang" or just "whoomf" ?

 

Sometimes they go "whoompf" - sometimes they go "bang" only it tends to be in a major way!

 

I've seen photos of a car that was set light to and it had a propane cylinder in the back - a big one - about a metre tall. all that was left of the car was the engine compartment and the chassis. The cylinder itself opened up like a banana and was recovered approx 100m away - that was where it landed - no idea how far it travelled vertically. The fireball took out the windows, the roof and the wall of the factory the car was standing next to.

 

I have seen video of the recent major fire at Hemswell Cliff. One of the units had 5 cylinders in. Each one of the cylinders exploded. for some you could tell because the intensity of the fire increased dramatically in that area (fireball indicating sudden rupture of the cylinder). The guy filming the fire was hundreds of metres away when one of the cylinders went and the hand held camera recorded the sound of debris falling on the hard standing close to where he stood. It had exploded

[Guest]

I have come into this thread very late but will go on record as saying that the average bod filling their own LPG bottles is madness. I used to deliver this stuff for a living and dealt with Calor, and a firm called Supagas (don't know if they still exist). Filling of such containers needs to be done properly in a controlled environment.

[Radiomariner]

So what sort of pressure do you expect liquid butane creates at say 37°C?

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

About 12 Bar. Butane boils at 37°C when the pressure is below 12 bar (from memory, not exact figure). Any liquid in the low pressure line will boil/expand until that pressure (12bar) is reached. The low pressure side of the regulator is designed to work at and leak tested at 37mb! Without checking up reference books I believe the expansion ratio is somewhere around 250.

 

cheers

[Bob the welder]

That finishes the whole topic quite neatly, I would have thought.

thank god for that.its been a gas.bob

[soldthehouse]

thank god for that.its been a gas.bob

 

[mayalld]

Oh, and it gets worse.

 

The original device was a potential death trap, but did at least have the saving grace that people could see what the idiots who used them were up to, and say "Oi, kindly bugger off and blow yourself up elsewhere sunshine".

 

Now there is another even more dangerous device on e-bay

 

Linky

 

This one is designed to allow fools to hide what they are doing, and carries the additional risk that those sufficiently feeble minded to think them a good idea have to remember to turn the bottle valve off before removing the nozzle.

 

To say nothing of the fact that it will involve having an LPG cylinder in an enclosure with no gas drains, and the tap open, trusting to the connector being a perfect seal to ensure that the boot doesn't fill with LPG

[mayalld]

It is probably worth noting that the company that supplied the refillable bottles without the stop-fill device that caused the original BSS warning has gone out of business.

[WotEver]

Now there is another even more dangerous device on e-bay

Also reported.

 

T.

[mayalld]

Also reported.

 

T.

 

Yup, goes without saying.

[colin stone]

Yup, goes without saying.

 

And all mailed to UKLPG.