Ideas on allocating moorings

[sueb]

As auctions are universally disapproved of I am interested in others suggestions for organising them. The list system didn't work as people put their names on several lists and didn't take them off when they were sorted.

[Jerra]

I have no experience of this but I have always wondered why it isn't like most other selling situations. The seller puts a price on the item and the first person prepared to pay the price buys the item.

 

I am sure there must be obvious reasons why this isn't done I just can't see them.

 

EDIT: To correct typo

Edited April 15, 2013 by Jerra

[GUMPY]

As auctions are universally disapproved of I am interested in others suggestions for organising them. The list system didn't work as people put their names on several lists and didn't take them off when they were sorted.

No waiting lists didnt work because it was possible to jump the queue depending on who you are!

[Dave_P]

As auctions are universally disapproved of I am interested in others suggestions for organising them. The list system didn't work as people put their names on several lists and didn't take them off when they were sorted.

Are they universally disapproved of? It's not a perfect system but it does have the advantage of ensuring that they go for the market value which means that people shouldn't end up paying over the odds and CaRT shouldn't end up receiving under the odds.

 

I do have an issue that the auction system is open to manipulation, allowing people people to secure moorings for the reserve price. I'm sure most of you can work out how this can be done.

[Tuscan]

Some ideas for debate.

 

1, increase license fees by 20% for those without a home mooring

2. Change 14 day rule to 28 days for those without home moorings only

3 After 28 days minimum move of 3 miles, ( with enforceable penalties for non compliance)

4 In urban areas increase number of long term moorings by 200% (priority given to existing CC'ers recorded in area)

5. Freeze mooring rates at current average charge. Reintroduce waiting lists - rule of only max 2 lists per applicant. only to increase by inflation.

6 double number of long term moorings in underused canals and reduce current rates by 25% to encourage shift.

7. Change law to simplify rules and enforcement process

8. Increase facilities in line with additional moorings

9 increase visitor mooring availability in hot spot areas

10 all/any additional revenue gained ring fenced for maintenance of infrastructure

11 abandon ideas of taking over any waters from EA.

[system 4-50]

Some ideas for debate.

 

1, increase license fees by 20% for those without a home mooring

2. Change 14 day rule to 28 days for those without home moorings only

3 After 28 days minimum move of 3 miles, ( with enforceable penalties for non compliance)

4 In urban areas increase number of long term moorings by 200% (priority given to existing CC'ers recorded in area)

5. Freeze mooring rates at current average charge. Reintroduce waiting lists - rule of only max 2 lists per applicant. only to increase by inflation.

6 double number of long term moorings in underused canals and reduce current rates by 25% to encourage shift.

7. Change law to simplify rules and enforcement process

8. Increase facilities in line with additional moorings

9 increase visitor mooring availability in hot spot areas

10 all/any additional revenue gained ring fenced for maintenance of infrastructure

11 abandon ideas of taking over any waters from EA.

This needs a topic of its own. The OP was talking about auctions???

[Mac of Cygnet]

I do have an issue that the auction system is open to manipulation, allowing people people to secure moorings for the reserve price. I'm sure most of you can work out how this can be done.

Well I'm in the minority, then. How is this possible in an open auction, unless actual criminal activity is involved?

[cotswoldsman]

Some ideas for debate.

 

1, increase license fees by 20% for those without a home mooring

2. Change 14 day rule to 28 days for those without home moorings only

3 After 28 days minimum move of 3 miles, ( with enforceable penalties for non compliance)

4 In urban areas increase number of long term moorings by 200% (priority given to existing CC'ers recorded in area)

5. Freeze mooring rates at current average charge. Reintroduce waiting lists - rule of only max 2 lists per applicant. only to increase by inflation.

6 double number of long term moorings in underused canals and reduce current rates by 25% to encourage shift.

7. Change law to simplify rules and enforcement process

8. Increase facilities in line with additional moorings

9 increase visitor mooring availability in hot spot areas

10 all/any additional revenue gained ring fenced for maintenance of infrastructure

11 abandon ideas of taking over any waters from EA.

 

All seem good to me except the increase of 20% for all those without a Home Mooring!!!!

[Dave_P]

Well I'm in the minority, then. How is this possible in an open auction, unless actual criminal activity is involved?

Well I wouldn't do it, it's very wrong and probably illegal. But I am 99% sure it's happened.

 

To state again, I'm not condoning this!

 

1. Register your details on the mooring auction site.

2. Register two sets of fake details on the mooring auction site.

3. As soon as the mooring you want appears on the site, enter a genuine bid at the reserve price.

4. Then very shortly afterwards start a fake bidding war between the two fake profiles. Pushing the price artificially high.

5. The chances are, one of your fake bids will win.

6. CaRT will try to contact the fake bidder and fail.

7. Then they will offer it to the fake runner-up and fail.

8. Then they will offer it to you at the price you bid. The reserve price.

 

The big issue here is that you can create a fake bidders profile with no requirement to provide ID.

 

All seem good to me except the increase of 20% for all those without a Home Mooring!!!!

All seem reasonably sensible to me too, including the 20% increase.

[cotswoldsman]

All seem reasonably sensible to me too, including the 20% increase.

 

Why should Continuous Cruisers pay an increase of 20%? Just interested to know

[jenlyn]

Just increase non compliant continuous cruiser licences by 100%.

[Guest]

As auctions are universally disapproved of I am interested in others suggestions for organising them. The list system didn't work as people put their names on several lists and didn't take them off when they were sorted.

 

Out of interest is this on the back of some sort of request from the Trust?? as in are they themselves seriously considering other options.

[jenlyn]

As for auction moorings, I don't see the present system changing just yet, but I don't doubt more moorings will be created.

[Dave_P]

I'm not sure that they definitely should but it is a sensible argument. I'd base it on the fact that cc'ers are likely to make more use of the CaRT facilities so should pay a bit more. Obviously this is not an exact science. I would also like to see a proportion of the licence go into a fund for local authorities, thus enabling them to fund facilities for itinerant boaters in lieu of council tax. But that's a whole different argument and not one to hijack this thread for.

[cotswoldsman]

I'm not sure that they definitely should but it is a sensible argument. I'd base it on the fact that cc'ers are likely to make more use of the CaRT facilities so should pay a bit more. Obviously this is not an exact science. I would also like to see a proportion of the licence go into a fund for local authorities, thus enabling them to fund facilities for itinerant boaters in lieu of council tax. But that's a whole different argument and not one to hijack this thread for.

 

OK so where does it stop, as a single boater I use the facilities far less than a boater with a partner or family. When you say facilities I presume you mean water and elsan? So a boater that never leaves the Marina should pay even less say a 75% discount?

[Dave_P]

OK so where does it stop, as a single boater I use the facilities far less than a boater with a partner or family. When you say facilities I presume you mean water and elsan? So a boater that never leaves the Marina should pay even less say a 75% discount?

Obviously this is not an exact science.

 

OK so where does it stop, as a single boater I use the facilities far less than a boater with a partner or family. When you say facilities I presume you mean water and elsan? So a boater that never leaves the Marina should pay even less say a 75% discount?

I wouldn't know but I'd presume that a boat which never leaves the marina doesn't need a license at all.

[Chris Pink]

OK so where does it stop, as a single boater I use the facilities far less than a boater with a partner or family. When you say facilities I presume you mean water and elsan? So a boater that never leaves the Marina should pay even less say a 75% discount?

 

There is a lot to be said for 'no navigation = no license needed'

[Guest]

Ed - ah you mean under this 'new system'

 

Ignore me.

Edited April 15, 2013 by The Dog House

[Dave_P]

OK so where does it stop, as a single boater I use the facilities far less than a boater with a partner or family. When you say facilities I presume you mean water and elsan? So a boater that never leaves the Marina should pay even less say a 75% discount?

Consider this: At my small mooring site there are around 20 boats each paying an average of £2000 per year (conservative estimate). That's £40000 per year in mooring fees to CaRT. I doubt if more than 10% of that goes back into maintaining and improving the moorings which has one tap, 2 bins, an electric supply to some moorings and that's it. So where does the rest go? It must go into some general fund and is therefore spent on the network as a whole. To my mind that means that means my mooring fee subsidises continuous cruisers.

 

I'd love it if the mooring fees on my mooring were ring fenced for improvements to the moorings, we could have a hot tub and a personal masseuse!

[cotswoldsman]

Consider this: At my small mooring site there are around 20 boats each paying an average of £2000 per year (conservative estimate). That's £40000 per year in mooring fees to CaRT. I doubt if more than 10% of that goes back into maintaining and improving the moorings which has one tap, 2 bins, an electric supply to some moorings and that's it. So where does the rest go? It must go into some general fund and is therefore spent on the network as a whole. To my mind that means that means my mooring fee subsidises continuous cruisers.

 

I'd love it if the mooring fees on my mooring were ring fenced for improvements to the moorings, we could have a hot tub and a personal masseuse!

There was me thinking you might well be paying for not having to move every 14 days, so become a Continuous Cruiser and save yourself the £2,000 we all have the same choices.

[kris88]

Some ideas for debate.

 

1, increase license fees by 20% for those without a home mooring

2. Change 14 day rule to 28 days for those without home moorings only

3 After 28 days minimum move of 3 miles, ( with enforceable penalties for non compliance)

4 In urban areas increase number of long term moorings by 200% (priority given to existing CC'ers recorded in area)

5. Freeze mooring rates at current average charge. Reintroduce waiting lists - rule of only max 2 lists per applicant. only to increase by inflation.

6 double number of long term moorings in underused canals and reduce current rates by 25% to encourage shift.

7. Change law to simplify rules and enforcement process

8. Increase facilities in line with additional moorings

9 increase visitor mooring availability in hot spot areas

10 all/any additional revenue gained ring fenced for maintenance of infrastructure

11 abandon ideas of taking over any waters from EA.

All seems okay apart from extra 20% for those with no home moorings

The auction system definitely favours rich people whereas it seems to me the provision of more reasonably priced residential moorings might do much to elevate the perceived c,me

rs problem. Or is this to simplistic

Regards kris

Edited April 15, 2013 by kris88

[Tuscan]

 

All seem good to me except the increase of 20% for all those without a Home Mooring!!!!

Bit like the current 10% historic boat discount , how about 20% discount for those with a CC license recorded as having travelled 100 miles during the previous licence period or whatever period the existing CC'ers should consider relevant, hopefully this will be asked in the forthcoming survey.

[Dave_P]

There was me thinking you might well be paying for not having to move every 14 days, so become a Continuous Cruiser and save yourself the £2,000 we all have the same choices.

Yes quite but that doesn't address my point. And in the past I have cc'ed but your solution would lead to a melt-down on the system if everyone did it. My point was about economics and funding. Not moving every 14 days doesn't actually cost any money for CaRT so the mooring fees is surely either for the mooring facilities provided or it's an additional revenue stream which supports the whole network. Or can you think of somewhere else it goes? Maybe Robin Evans etc are all multi-millionaires off the back of my fees but I seriously doubt it.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Dave_P

[Chris Pink]

Maybe Robin Evans etc are all multi-millionaires off the back of my fees but I seriously doubt it.

 

Really? How charmingly naif.

[matty40s]

 

. To my mind that means that means my mooring fee subsidises continuous cruisers.

Every time I have a pump-out, I pay for it, and generally there is a discount for marina residents. Therefore I am subsidising the marina dwellers.

I am also paying for Elsan facilities across the system, which I do not use, therefore I am subsidising all those marina dwellers with Cassette/portaloos.

You also seem to forget the security aspect of your marina, do you not value that.

 

The moorings auctions are an awful system made worse by obvious manipulation and ridiculously inflated reserve prices.

How does a set of moorings with many vacancies over the last 4 years continue to have it's reserve price increased.

How come auctions on those drip fed moorings either

1. Have no bids (quite often) or,

2. When a SINGLE bid is received - a bidding war breaks out pushing the price well over guideline price.

 

 

 

You moor if you want to, this CC'er isn't for moorings.

Edited April 15, 2013 by matty40s