Integrel 9kW ‘Alternator on Steroids’

[Robbo]

This looks quite interesting for us power hogs..

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2018/10/03/nigel-calder-and-the-integrel-9kw-alternator-on-steroids/

 

Main site; https://www.integrelmarine.com/

Edited November 26, 2018 by Robbo

[Sea Dog]

Ooh, interesting. Thanks for posting it.

[Robbo]

The tech video is quite in depth...

 

 

[Trento]

Seems that I have already a junior version of this stuff.

read Nigel's book chapters 5, 6 and 7, but specifically page 71 The Diesel/Electric Boat.

My junior version works for me with all alarms and bells, Canal boaters have for years used their engine to charge batteries and give ac voltage, nothing new there for us !!!

 

[Robbo]

1 minute ago, Trento said:

Seems that I have already a junior version of this stuff.

read Nigel's book chapters 5, 6 and 7, but specifically page 71 The Diesel/Electric Boat.

My junior version works for me with all alarms and bells, Canal boaters have for years used their engine to charge batteries and give ac voltage, nothing new there for us !!!

 

That’s like saying a horse is like a Diesel engine as they can both pull boats.

[MoominPapa]

The power curve stuff is interesting. This stuff is begging to use Lithium batteries. Having 9kW available is not much use if you're still having to run the engine for hours to get the last 10% into lead-acid cells. Lithium will take greater charge rates and really reduce engine running times.

 

MP.

 

 

[Trento]

3 minutes ago, Robbo said:

That’s like saying a horse is like a Diesel engine as they can both pull boats.

For the years I've lived onboard yes, a horse could pull my boat...We are canal boat dwellers, not North Atlantic sailors..

Imagine the cost of that stuff and if Victron are involved double your first guess, I could buy a shed load of diesel for my inefficient engine running regime for what I expect to pay for that stuff. Plus I have all the ac comforts including coffee maker, washing machine, kettle etc etc.  It's a good gimmick but not I feel for the Inland waterway user.

[Alan de Enfield]

I reckon that it will make a dedicated 7kv marine generator look a cheap option.

[Robbo]

I hope they put the alternator technology into a smaller package, a 3kw 12v version would I think would sell well to the canalboat market.

[Trento]

3 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I hope they put the alternator technology into a smaller package, a 3kw 12v version would I think would sell well to the canalboat market.

Really ?

[Chewbacka]

I suspect it wouldn’t work with a simple non ECU-controlled engine as it needs to adjust the throttle to control high levels of power without the engine over reving when the load is dropped.  So maybe take it for my Christmas list for this year.

[Robbo]

20 minutes ago, Trento said:

For the years I've lived onboard yes, a horse could pull my boat...We are canal boat dwellers, not North Atlantic sailors..

Imagine the cost of that stuff and if Victron are involved double your first guess, I could buy a shed load of diesel for my inefficient engine running regime for what I expect to pay for that stuff. Plus I have all the ac comforts including coffee maker, washing machine, kettle etc etc.  It's a good gimmick but not I feel for the Inland waterway user.

This is for a diesel generator replacement, if you don’t have the room for one but still want/need the power then this looks good.   At 9kw it is quite a lot, but hopefully they will make other versions and a 12v/3kw version for our market seems plausible without having too thick cables.

[Robbo]

1 minute ago, Trento said:

Really ?

Generating electric has always been a pain and is really nice if you have a built in generator.   However we don’t tend to have the room, a 12/24v version would be good competition for that other generator/alternator 240v one we can use but name escapes me.

7 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

I suspect it wouldn’t work with a simple non ECU-controlled engine as it needs to adjust the throttle to control high levels of power without the engine over reving when the load is dropped.  So maybe take it for my Christmas list for this year.

To be honest it wouldn’t be on my Xmas list, I would go diesel generator with electric propulsion if I was building from scratch.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Robbo said:

This is for a diesel generator replacement, if you don’t have the room for one

A 4 or 5Kw silent, water cooled, marine diesel generator is surprisingly small. Typically 600mm x 500mm x 400mm.

I reckon most boats could find space for that if they really wanted to.

 

Edit to add and example :

 

https://rowlandsmarine.co.uk/paguro-4-sy-marine-generator/

Edited November 26, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Robbo]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Typically 600mm x 500mm x 400mm.

It’s also quite large for most narrowboats tho, especially if your not a elf when you need to service things.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Robbo said:

It’s also quite large for most narrowboats tho, especially if your not a elf when you need to service things.

Its not much more than the size of 2 of my batteries.

Which are (each)

 

Length	:   518 mm
Width	:   276 mm
Height	:   242 mm

[Robbo]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Its not much more than the size of 2 of my batteries.

Which are (each)

 

Length	:   518 mm
Width	:   276 mm
Height	:   242 mm

Quite a bit higher tho at 500mm which is the real restriction for most narrowboat engine compartments I've seen which only tend to have room on the swim part.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Quite a bit higher tho at 500mm which is the real restriction for most narrowboat engine compartments I've seen which only tend to have room on the swim part.

I think it would have gone on the swim on my Reeves hull, but you are correct - it would have been a nightmare to service.

[Chewbacka]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think it would have gone on the swim on my Reeves hull, but you are correct - it would have been a nightmare to service.

I suspect the typical person that buys one of these with their fancy ecu controlled engine won’t do their own serving, they will send the man down the hole, so not their worry.

[IanD]

It's nice to see somebody -- finally! -- coming up with a workable solution for those who want decent amounts of power on a boat without a separate generator. Which don't forget have issues with maintenance, lifetime, cost and efficiency -- they're typically about 25% efficient at maximum output but far worse at the lower output levels they typically run at, as Nigel explains. And you have the noise all the time they're running...

 

It's the same basic idea as the Hybrid Marine "Power Station" (5.5kW from an Electrodyne high-power 48V DC alternator) but done better -- the "alternator" is 3-phase AC permanent-magnet which is more efficient with about double the output. The ~9kW capacity is pretty much what I worked out would be optimum to load a Beta 43 over most of the rev range, and be able to change big battery banks quickly.

 

I guess it won't be that much cheaper than a standalone generator when you add the battery banks, but then you only need to run it for short periods of time not all the time you want high AC power (including when stationary), the efficiency (fuel consumption) is bound to be a lot better, and you don't have to find a place to fit a generator -- it;s taking advantage of the fact that you already have a diesel engine. Most people would probably never have to run it when stationary given the battery bank, but even if you did the charge time would be very short.

 

You don't need an ECU controlled engine, the output adapts to the engine revs and load -- when boating this is automatic, when stationary it will produce as much power as it can at the revs you set on the throttle. I'm sure RPM control could be made automatic if you did have an ECU controlled engine, but this doesn't seem necessary unless you want automatic startup and battery charging.

[OldGoat]

One point missed / ignored is that the system 'needs' a sensible voltage battery bank - no fiddling about with loads of 12v batteries on parallel - or 24v but 'proper' 48v....

Electronics HATE high current.

 

This kit is designed for / marketed to the yacht marketplace (no disrespec' there) - but they're more accustomed to pay for what they need, instead of shoehorning  car electrics into a boat.

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, OldGoat said:

One point missed / ignored is...

... that it’s not a new idea. Okay it’s refined, (probably hugely expensive), and easy to implement, but Beta Marine sold a similar system 20 years ago. Only the beta one was 11kW. Nobody bought it and they dropped it around 2003. 

 

See the Wardle narrowboat ‘Whisper’. 

[IanD]

15 hours ago, WotEver said:

... that it’s not a new idea. Okay it’s refined, (probably hugely expensive), and easy to implement, but Beta Marine sold a similar system 20 years ago. Only the beta one was 11kW. Nobody bought it and they dropped it around 2003. 

 

See the Wardle narrowboat ‘Whisper’. 

Not really the same beast at all. The Beta Marine "Propgen" ran at a constant speed like any normal generator, and used hydraulic drive to the prop. Both combined are a recipe for terrible fuel efficiency and high maintenance bills, a big (11kW) constant-speed generator (difficult to silence) running all the time at full revs (including when stationary if AC mains is needed) but usually way below optimum load plus a lossy hydraulic drive from an engine with less available power for propulsion than a normal diesel. No wonder they sold very few and withdrew it from sale.

 

In comparison the Integrel system runs the engine at normal boat propulsion speed with direct drive (via gearbox) to the prop and adds load via the "alternator" for battery bank charging -- in other words it's just like a "normal" boat (normally running at 1400rpm or lower) except for having much faster/higher capacity battery charging and a big 48V battery bank plus high-power inverter. This looks to me like a better solution than either TravelPower/multiple 12V alternators or a separate generator, which is exactly what they claim.

 

I don't have any relationship with the company, but it seems that they've got the right solution and engineered it properly, and used some up-to-date technology to make it efficient and pretty much idiot-proof -- probably more so than a conventional system for things like battery life and immunity to mistreatment.

Edited November 27, 2018 by IanD

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Not really the same beast at all

Sure it is. It’s nothing new, just a more refined version. Saying ‘it’s a new idea’ is like saying that a Dreamliner is a new idea just because it’s bigger and more refined than the Kittyhawk.  Nope, it’s just a more elegant implementation of an old idea. 

[Iain_S]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

Not really the same beast at all. The Beta Marine "Propgen" ran at a constant speed like any normal generator, and used hydraulic drive to the prop. Both combined are a recipe for terrible fuel efficiency and high maintenance bills, a big (11kW) constant-speed generator (difficult to silence) running all the time at full revs (including when stationary if AC mains is needed) but usually way below optimum load plus a lossy hydraulic drive from an engine with less available power for propulsion than a normal diesel. No wonder they sold very few and withdrew it from sale.

(snip)

There is a Propgen installed in a trip boat I used to skipper. Instead of hydraulic drive, it uses a conventional gearbox, with the addition of a trolling valve. There was an option to run at 1000rpm, with no power generation, which was non standard, I think.  (It has been modified to disable the trolling valve, and restore full control of engine rpm to the throttle/gear lever. As the 240V is only used for an urn, frequency is not imprtant!)