Rudder

[Carl123]

Hi can any one help me I have a 2002 pipa narrow boat I need to take the rudder off still in the water the swan neck doesn't have any nuts or bolts on the top can any add vise me how to do it please 

[Boater Sam]

pipa boat? Never heard of it.

Some have a tapered joint in the rudder shaft on the top of the rudder.

Some have a split shaft with bolts through the rudder.

Some are welded up solid and cannot be removed unless with a gas axe.

Never easy in the water.

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Carl123 said:

Hi can any one help me I have a 2002 pipa narrow boat I need to take the rudder off still in the water the swan neck doesn't have any nuts or bolts on the top can any add vise me how to do it please 

Do you mean 'PIPER' ?

 

If so you could try the Piper Owners Club page :

 

http://www.piperowners.co.uk/

Edited October 8, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Carl123]

12 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

pipa boat? Never heard of it.

Some have a tapered joint in the rudder shaft on the top of the rudder.

Some have a split shaft with bolts through the rudder.

Some are welded up solid and cannot be removed unless with a gas axe.

Never easy in the water.

OK thanks for your time

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Do you mean 'PIPER' ?

Sorry yes its a piper boat

[Tony Brooks]

A photo of where the rudder comes out of the stern deck and the bottom of the swan neck would get you more exact answers.

[Carl123]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Do you mean 'PIPER' ?

 

If so you could try the Piper Owners Club page :

 

http://www.piperowners.co.uk/

OK thank you I'll look at that 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Carl123 said:

OK thanks for your time

Sorry yes its a piper boat

If you go onto the Piper Owners Club and detail your 'model' then maybe they will be able to give you the full details.

So many variations of boats - all 'hand built' and no two the same (except the mass-produced Liverpool boats etc)

[ditchcrawler]

There are a few Piper owners on this forum so something may turn up for you

[Carl123]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

A photo of where the rudder comes out of the stern deck and the bottom of the swan neck would get you more exact answers.

I'll take one now and see what that dose thank you the rudder has got play side to side 

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

A photo of where the rudder comes out of the stern deck and the bottom of the swan neck would get you more exact answers.

I'll take one now and see what that dose thank you the rudder has got play side to side 

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

There are a few Piper owners on this forum so something may turn up for you

Thanks

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Carl123 said:

I'll take one now and see what that dose thank you the rudder has got play side to side 

I'll take one now and see what that dose thank you the rudder has got play side to side 

Well if by that you mean the tiller and rudder stock (the shaft up through the deck move as one BUT the rudder does not because of play then I would suggest your rudder is fitted into a slot in the shaft, secured by screws/bolts that have come loose OR there is a small shaft coupling between the uxter plate and rudder giving a two piece rudder stock that has loose bolts in it. If its either of those a photo of the upper part will not help but a video over the back of the boat showing the top of the rudder and the place where the swan neck joins the rudder while you waggle it may help.

[Carl123]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Well if by that you mean the tiller and rudder stock (the shaft up through the deck move as one BUT the rudder does not because of play then I would suggest your rudder is fitted into a slot in the shaft, secured by screws/bolts that have come loose OR there is a small shaft coupling between the uxter plate and rudder giving a two piece rudder stock that has loose bolts in it. If its either of those a photo of the upper part will not help but a video over the back of the boat showing the top of the rudder and the place where the swan neck joins the rudder while you waggle it may help.

I'll try and get one the video thanks

[Stilllearning]

You can investigate whether or not there is a split shaft system by getting your arms down the weed hatch and feeling along the rudder shaft, if you feel anything like a nut and bolt through the shaft, then you may be able to tighten it up in situ.

[bizzard]

Very likely done Liverpool Boat fashion which often suffer the same loose rudder blade problem. The rudder stock passing through a tube welded to the blade, secured by a through nut and bolt and a pinch bolt. Coming loose is usually caused by the boat being reversed stern first into a bank whilst winding. The rudder strikes the bank and bashes it across whilst the person at the tiller panics and tries to force the tiller across against an immoveable rudder blade, hence the pinch bolt letting go leaving the blade flopping back and forth on the through bolt which gets worse as the bolt holes in the tube get elongated.

[Stilllearning]

We were called out once to a boat that had lost it’s rudder. Turned up and yes, just the tiller and half a shaft, so on spec, I chucked a seasearcher over the side. Bingo, first time it latched onto what turned out to be the lost rudder. Towed the boat back to the yard, in the dock, fixed an hour later and back out and off boating again.

[Mike Todd]

39 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

We were called out once to a boat that had lost it’s rudder. Turned up and yes, just the tiller and half a shaft, so on spec, I chucked a seasearcher over the side. Bingo, first time it latched onto what turned out to be the lost rudder. Towed the boat back to the yard, in the dock, fixed an hour later and back out and off boating again.

Bet the ownes were really grateful - and relieved!

[Stilllearning]

But not half as surprised as I was, getting the rudder back so easily.

[Sea Dog]

3 hours ago, Carl123 said:

Hi can any one help me I have a 2002 pipa narrow boat I need to take the rudder off still in the water the swan neck doesn't have any nuts or bolts on the top can any add vise me how to do it please 

I have a (Simon) Piper boat. The boat is very well built with some nice features and clever design work, but the obligatory RCD manual I have with mine is more of a collection of manuals for the fitted equipment and does not give any level of useful detail on how Piper themselves have done things. 

 

As I understand it (and I've never taken mind off) the bottom of the swan neck has a square section wedge which mates with a similarly shaped cup at the rudder.  If there's play in the steering gear, Dot Piper (wife of founder David Piper and Mum of Simon who now runs the business) advises to tighten it by application of a big hammer!  This being the case, I'd say separating the joint would be an equal and opposite force. Now I've provided that clue, one of the resident experts may be able to cast more light. 

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I have a (Simon) Piper boat. The boat is very well built with some nice features and clever design work, but the obligatory RCD manual I have with mine is more of a collection of manuals for the fitted equipment and does not give any level of useful detail on how Piper themselves have done things. 

 

As I understand it (and I've never taken mind off) the bottom of the swan neck has a square section wedge which mates with a similarly shaped cup at the rudder.  If there's play in the steering gear, Dot Piper (wife of founder David Piper and Mum of Simon who now runs the business) advises to tighten it by application of a big hammer!  This being the case, I'd say separating the joint would be an equal and opposite force. Now I've provided that clue, one of the resident experts may be able to cast more light. 

I suspect the cup as you call it is part of the swan neck and the square section is at the top of the rudder stock. Both "squares" being tapered. Fitting  a tapered "cup" to the top of the stock makes little engineering sense.

 

You may well be correct but until we can see where the play actually is no one can be sure.

[Carl123]

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[Sea Dog]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I suspect the cup as you call it is part of the swan neck and the square section is at the top of the rudder stock. Both "squares" being tapered. Fitting  a tapered "cup" to the top of the stock makes little engineering sense.

 

You may well be correct but until we can see where the play actually is no one can be sure.

I think it more likely you are correct Tony!  I have only a vague recollection of something Dot said and the bit about the hammer is the bit I remember most!  I provided the info only as a clue for those like yourself to pick up on in case it rang a bell.

 

Why does the orientation of the taper and cup only make engineering sense one way up? 

7 minutes ago, Carl123 said:

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Yep, that looks like the one on my Piper boat (yours just looks a lot more neglected)!

 

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Sea Dog said:

I think it more likely you are correct Tony!  I have only a vague recollection of something Dot said and the bit about the hammer is the bit I remember most!  I provided the info only as a clue for those like yourself to pick up on in case it rang a bell.

 

Why does the orientation of the taper and cup only make engineering sense one way up? 

Because it is relatively easy to machine a square taper on the end of  the shaft and it is also fairly easy to "machine or punch" a tapered square hole in the thick disk of metal that will be welded onto the bottom of the swan neck. If you wanted to put a cup on the top of the stock it would either require welding to the stock and thus produce a weal point or some form of hot forging to swell the shaft at the top and punch a taper into it.

[Tony Brooks]

Has anyone got the vid's to open?  I can't

[Sea Dog]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Because it is relatively easy to machine a square taper on the end of  the shaft and it is also fairly easy to "machine or punch" a tapered square hole in the thick disk of metal that will be welded onto the bottom of the swan neck. If you wanted to put a cup on the top of the stock it would either require welding to the stock and thus produce a weal point or some form of hot forging to swell the shaft at the top and punch a taper into it.

Ah, I get it.  Thanks!

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Has anyone got the vid's to open?  I can't

Nope - cannot be opened.

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

I think the OP may have posted the videos in a funny format. the ".3gp" suggests they have been through the 3GP format converter so goodness knows what format they are in.