I need to pay someone to fix my electrics

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I fear its coming to gearbox and flywheel housing off to see what is gong on time if the starter runs off the engine.

 

One final trick to try is to loosely fit the starter in the engine with all the bolts say 3/8" loose, fit the wires and 'blip' the key to see if the starter still spins even though it (probably) won't engage the flywheel. 

If it spins, tighten the bolts a couple of turns and test again, then another couple of turns untill you find the point at which it fails to spin. The  exact position of the starter at this point with be very illuminating/informative.

On the other hand if it fails to spin despite spinning with a foot on it, investigation as to why not is the way to go. 

[bizzard]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

One final trick to try is to loosely fit the starter in the engine with all the bolts say 3/8" loose, fit the wires and 'blip' the key to see if the starter still spins even though it (probably) won't engage the flywheel. 

If it spins, tighten the bolts a couple of turns and test again, then another couple of turns untill you find the point at which it fails to spin. The  exact position of the starter at this point with be very illuminating/informative.

On the other hand if it fails to spin despite spinning with a foot on it, investigation as to why not is the way to go. 

Or do the old trick again that I told him way back in this thread. Touch  the Pos+ cable to the lower terminal on the solenoid which goes direct to the motor by- passing the solenoid actuation. This will spin the motor without the pinion moving so it won't crash into the ring gear.

[Boater Sam]

Its a fair assumption that this set up has worked in the past even if it is a miss matched set of starter, flywheel, and  housing.

Physically compare the 3 starter motors you now have, pinion length, # of teeth, relative positions of the pinion both idle and engaged. They should be all the same. Don't go off the numbers stamped on the casing, they could be a collection of odd bits put together.

Have a close look at the teeth on the flywheel. Turn the engine by hand to inspect them all round.

Primarily, you need to get a starter motor to run off the engine to prove you have good connections.

[MtB]

11 hours ago, bizzard said:

Or do the old trick again that I told him way back in this thread. Touch  the Pos+ cable to the lower terminal on the solenoid which goes direct to the motor by- passing the solenoid actuation. This will spin the motor without the pinion moving so it won't crash into the ring gear.

 

But will it though? This is what we are trying to find out. 

Step 1: Prove the motor runs off the engine. 

Step 2: Find out how/why fitting it to the engine then stops it from running.

However the OP hasn't yet come back with the result of step 1, so all advice on Step 2 could be jumping the gun.

[ditchcrawler]

22 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I don't think you have gone wrong. The clunk suggest the negative/earth circuit is at least partially OK because the solenoid is operating. If you had a bad connection I would expect what is known as machine gunning but you do not describe that.

Get someone to hold the key in the start position while you feel all along the main positive and negative cable runs, including battery terminals for any signs of warmth. If you find any then sort out the poor/dity connection or undersized cable and try again.

I think you said the engine turns over by hand so its not seized.

Did this starter by any chance come form an Ebay bargain?

Does the pinion have the correct number of teeth?

Is the flywheel the correct one for the engine?

I know you have no way of answering those questions but they may give a clue. I suspect the starter so take it off, jump lead from battery negative to case. Another from battery positive to the large stud connection on the solenoid. Foot very firmly on starter body and use a screwdriver to very firmly bridge between the positive jump lead clip and the small "ignition switch" terminal on the starter. If the motor runs then its not at fault but it will try to spin under your foot.

 

When I bought my engine second hand the previous owner had mounted a relay adjacent to the starter motor that actually switched the starter solenoid, the relay was pulled in by the "ignition" switch . This was because he had extended the loam and the volt drop prevented the solenoid pulling in hard enough to make the started contacts so energising the starter motor. Its a bit marginal and I have had occasions of just a clunk and no start which has been cured by giving the key a hard flick, I still have the relay and am considering refitting it. I don't know what current a starter solenoid draws.

Edit

The OP could try a link from the big positive on the started just touched onto the spade connector of the solenoid 

Edited April 26, 2018 by ditchcrawler

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

When I bought my engine second hand the previous owner had mounted a relay adjacent to the starter motor that actually switched the starter solenoid, the relay was pulled in by the "ignition" switch . This was because he had extended the loam and the volt drop prevented the solenoid pulling in hard enough to make the started contacts so energising the starter motor. Its a bit marginal and I have had occasions of just a clunk and no start which has been cured by giving the key a hard flick, I still have the relay and am considering refitting it. I don't know what current a starter solenoid draws.

Edit

The OP could try a link from the big positive on the started just touched onto the spade connector of the solenoid 

It has two windings in parallel and the high current one turns off once the motor is energised so you have two values. I don't have a solenoid here to check the resistance but I have a feeling the hold in could is 2 Ohms or less while the pull in coils is about half an Ohm so while pulling in (if my parallel resistance calc is OK) the current will be around 30 amps and after a very few seconds about 6 amps.

A relay or better still an inertia type starter solenoid is a good idea when a long cable run is in use.

[Billy Boy]

Did the OP get a new solenoid with the starter or had to use old/original.

[Mikexx]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

It has two windings in parallel and the high current one turns off once the motor is energised so you have two values. I don't have a solenoid here to check the resistance but I have a feeling the hold in could is 2 Ohms or less while the pull in coils is about half an Ohm so while pulling in (if my parallel resistance calc is OK) the current will be around 30 amps and after a very few seconds about 6 amps.

A relay or better still an inertia type starter solenoid is a good idea when a long cable run is in use.

 

The pre-engaged started on my 1.5 has the earthy side of the solenoid coil attached to the tap between the field and (+ve) brushes. Before the solenoid kicks in full 12V is applied across the coil. Afterwards, 12V is applied to the field and the earthy side of the solenoid moves away from ground, more so the faster the motor spins.

I had a problem where the contacts in the solenoid were corroded, and all I got was a 'clunk'. I thought the engine was seized!

I'm wondering if this is the OP's case.

[Karen Lea Rainey]

Hello again, yes the solenoid is attached to the new starter motor as one piece, it is now fitted and awaiting some rewiring  of the batteries / ignition barrel. When the boat was vandalised they ripped out the ignition and other wires. I am slowly getting the circuits identified and will next be at the boat on Tuesday next week.

One thing that has crossed my mind is, on this new starter motor there is a negative stud on the rear face of the starter , I put the negative on the bolt through the engine casing thinking this would give enough ground to complete the circuit back to the negative post on the battery.

I wondered if this stud would generate a more direct negative earth. I will try again on Tuesday and report back. 

Thanks for all your replies Keith

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

Hello again, yes the solenoid is attached to the new starter motor as one piece, it is now fitted and awaiting some rewiring  of the batteries / ignition barrel. When the boat was vandalised they ripped out the ignition and other wires. I am slowly getting the circuits identified and will next be at the boat on Tuesday next week.

One thing that has crossed my mind is, on this new starter motor there is a negative stud on the rear face of the starter , I put the negative on the bolt through the engine casing thinking this would give enough ground to complete the circuit back to the negative post on the battery.

I wondered if this stud would generate a more direct negative earth. I will try again on Tuesday and report back. 

Thanks for all your replies Keith

 

Those studs are normally just a setscrew through a plain hole in the end bracket so it should make no difference if you used that or a bolt into the engine. What you don’t want is a single negative to the engine bed or hull with not sister link to the engine.

10 hours ago, Mikexx said:

 

The pre-engaged started on my 1.5 has the earthy side of the solenoid coil attached to the tap between the field and (+ve) brushes. Before the solenoid kicks in full 12V is applied across the coil. Afterwards, 12V is applied to the field and the earthy side of the solenoid moves away from ground, more so the faster the motor spins.

I had a problem where the contacts in the solenoid were corroded, and all I got was a 'clunk'. I thought the engine was seized!

I'm wondering if this is the OP's case.

Sorry but you do not understand how the solenoid works.

The solenoid has nothing to do with speeding up the motor.

There are TWO coils in the solenoid, a pull in coil and a hold in coil. The pull in coil demands a highish current and is earthed via the actual motor (as you describe) so when the solenoid contact join you get 12V (nominal) on both ends of this coil so it in effect turns off.

The pull in coil is earthed via the solenoid case and requires a much smaller current. This stays energised all the time the start key/button is in the start position.

Both coils are fed from the same terminal on the solenoid cap.

 

This is a new starter assembly.

 

 

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

The pull in coil is earthed via the solenoid case and requires a much smaller current. This stays energised all the time the start key/button is in the start position.

Typo here, Tony. You meant “hold in coil” in that paragraph. 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Typo here, Tony. You meant “hold in coil” in that paragraph. 

Yet another rather bad slip on my behalf and a good spot, yes hold in coil stays energised.

If the pull in coil stayed energised I think it would burn itself out.

[Mikexx]

On 27/04/2018 at 08:14, Tony Brooks said:

 

Those studs are normally just a setscrew through a plain hole in the end bracket so it should make no difference if you used that or a bolt into the engine. What you don’t want is a single negative to the engine bed or hull with not sister link to the engine.

Sorry but you do not understand how the solenoid works.

The solenoid has nothing to do with speeding up the motor.

There are TWO coils in the solenoid, a pull in coil and a hold in coil. The pull in coil demands a highish current and is earthed via the actual motor (as you describe) so when the solenoid contact join you get 12V (nominal) on both ends of this coil so it in effect turns off.

The pull in coil is earthed via the solenoid case and requires a much smaller current. This stays energised all the time the start key/button is in the start position.

First of all apologies, I can confirm there are two coil connections. A DVM is poor at measuring resistance, but between the solenoid coil wire terminal and the motor side stud I measure 0.1 Ohms. Between the same connection and ground (case) I measure 0.5 ohms.

However, I never said the solenoid sped up the motor as such. On some starters, not the one in question, I have seen a single coil, where the earthy side of the solenoid coild is connected to the junction of the field and brushes, where the voltage at this junction will rise as the motor speeds up; reducing solenoid coil current. An alternative to 2 different windings.

[Karen Lea Rainey]

Hi All, to get up to date,

Starter motor fitted,

Spoke directly to electro start Ltd at Daventry and the reply was that the starter was tested prior to despatch and works perfectly well.

Got a local mechanic to check out why it wouldn't  start, he came tonight with a different ignition barrel and fitted it.

Would you believe it, it turned over straight away no problems.

Bled the fuel line to the top filter and opened all 4 unions at the injectors, tried turning it over, fuel persisting out of the unions, tightened 3 up, put on full forward propulsion, use of easy start for about a 5 second burst into to air filter and it's now running no problems.

There's a leak from the rocker gasket and it's a bit Smokey in the engine hole.

But success is gained. IT'S  NOW RUNNING. WHOOPEE !!!

Couldn't  be more pleased with it. 

Thanks for all your advice and inputs. 

[cuthound]

28 minutes ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

Hi All, to get up to date,

Starter motor fitted,

Spoke directly to electro start Ltd at Daventry and the reply was that the starter was tested prior to despatch and works perfectly well.

Got a local mechanic to check out why it wouldn't  start, he came tonight with a different ignition barrel and fitted it.

Would you believe it, it turned over straight away no problems.

Bled the fuel line to the top filter and opened all 4 unions at the injectors, tried turning it over, fuel persisting out of the unions, tightened 3 up, put on full forward propulsion, use of easy start for about a 5 second burst into to air filter and it's now running no problems.

There's a leak from the rocker gasket and it's a bit Smokey in the engine hole.

But success is gained. IT'S  NOW RUNNING. WHOOPEE !!!

Couldn't  be more pleased with it. 

Thanks for all your advice and inputs. 

 

Well done, glad you got it sorted.

[WotEver]

Just now, cuthound said:

 

Well done, glad you got it sorted.

+1

[Boater Sam]

I do like a success story. Amazingly this thread stayed on topic.

[Tony Brooks]

I would say that this was not really a success because the test at the start advised by I think Biz at the start to connect the small solenoid terminal to the large  battery stud or the later advice to short the two studs out should have shown that the starter worked and then we would have been onto the switch or wiring like a shot.

 

It also brings into question whether the OP got a click or a clunk. I would now suggest they got a click.

 

Anyway, glad its sorted.

[MtB]

And even more unfortunately, there was probably nothing wrong with the original starter, which would have been revealed had the op carried out the tests suggested. 

[Karen Lea Rainey]

Look at post #87, the original starter was in the picture, it was beyond repair,  had been submerged in water for quite a long period of time, both yourselves and I have been chasing , oddball connections to and from the batteries, between 3 isolator switches and a rusted up split charger.

All along the ignition barrel which was rigged up by a local boat yard to try to get it going before me hadn't  realised that the ignition switch unit was at fault.

Regards and thanks for your very useful suggestions. Keith

[bizzard]

2 minutes ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

Look at post #87, the original starter was in the picture, it was beyond repair,  had been submerged in water for quite a long period of time, both yourselves and I have been chasing , oddball connections to and from the batteries, between 3 isolator switches and a rusted up split charger.

All along the ignition barrel which was rigged up by a local boat yard to try to get it going before me hadn't  realised that the ignition switch unit was at fault.

Regards and thanks for your very useful suggestions. Keith

I'd check the continuity of your jump leads.