Ray T Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 CANAL & RIVER TRUST 2017 NATIONAL BOAT COUNT SHOWS LICENCE EVASION DOWN Boat numbers in London continue to rise The Canal & River Trust’s annual national boat count shows that licence evasion on its waterways has reduced by 0.7% overall in the past year to 3.7%, with 96.3% of boats holding up-to-date licences. This is the eighth year the rate has stayed below 5%. The survey, completed in March, identifies boats on waterways across England & Wales and provides a comprehensive snap-shot of licence evasion. The information is used to support the day-to-day work carried out by the Trust. Jon Horsfall, interim head of boating at Canal & River Trust, said: “Boaters’ licence fees contribute in helping us to carry out the huge task of keeping our canals and rivers open. It’s important that everyone plays their part and we are delighted that the evasion rate has reduced again this year. Our boat licence customer support team has done a fantastic job working with boaters to make sure they are licensed correctly. “Unfortunately, a small minority continue to enjoy the benefits of boating on the waterways without putting anything back to fund their upkeep. In 2016/17 we had to remove 101 boats from our canals and rivers as they were unlicensed or in breach of our terms and conditions. There’s also an important safety aspect: if a boat isn’t licensed we can’t know that it’s safe, which could be a risk for both the boat owner and other boaters.” The national boat count also paints a picture of the changing numbers of boats across the country. The Trust’s waterways in London have seen an increase of 339 boats – an increase of over 9% – with numbers in the central East, the South West and the South East regions also rising. Boat numbers in the North, North Wales and Midlands have seen a slight drop. Jon continued: “The popularity of the boating lifestyle in London remains high. Congestion aside it also puts a lot of pressure on the Capital’s 200-year old waterways: the facilities are seeing more use than ever before. It’s a challenge to meet the demands of this soaring growth but we are working with boaters, other stakeholders and canal users to develop a strategy that will help identify ways to address some of the challenges that it presents. We want the Capital’s waterways to work for all the boaters who know and love them.” ENDS For further media requests please contact: Fran Read, national press officer, Canal & River Trust m 07796 610 427 e fran.read@canalrivertrust.org.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ray T said: The Trust’s waterways in London have seen an increase of 339 boats – an increase of over 9% If 339 boats is 9%, then C&RT are suggesting that there are around 3700 boats 'living' on London's waterways. That seems a 'lot' ? Add in : 6 minutes ago, Ray T said: ........ numbers in the central East, the South West and the South East regions also rising And it makes you wonder what the attraction of living in an overcrowded urban area could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirweste Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 If someone could work out the length of canals in London, using an average boat length we could be geeks and work out how much bank side would be used - flawed due to marinas, breasting, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 5 minutes ago, sirweste said: If someone could work out the length of canals in London 1st problem - Define "London" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 49 minutes ago, Ray T said: In 2016/17 we had to remove 101 boats ................................ In 2016/17 The Trust’s waterways in London have seen an increase of 339 boats ............... Interesting to compare with previous years : "In 2015/16 'we had to remove 90 boats" "In 2015/16 London has seen an increase of just over 400 boats, with numbers in the south west and south east also rising" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty40s Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said: If 339 boats is 9%, then C&RT are suggesting that there are around 3700 boats 'living' on London's waterways. That seems a 'lot' ? Add in : And it makes you wonder what the attraction of living in an overcrowded urban area could be. It's been rising at that rate for the last 5 years so those numbers will probably ly be correct. London is usually classed as starting at Watford, and includes the Lee and Stort Affordable accommodation is the obvious answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 I'm happy to be proved wrong, but much of this data is regional, so when they say London don't they mean all waterways that fall is CRT's London Waterways Area. From the relevant web page.... Quote The waterways we care for are: Paddington Arm (Grand Union Canal) Slough Arm (Grand Union Canal) Grand Union Canal (from Bridge 175, Stockers Farm Bridge) Regent's Canal Hertford Union Canal River Lee Limehouse Cut Bow Back Rivers River Stort London Docklands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Ditch Rich Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 5 hours ago, Ray T said: CANAL & RIVER TRUST 2017 NATIONAL BOAT COUNT SHOWS LICENCE EVASION DOWN Boat numbers in London continue to rise The Canal & River Trust’s annual national boat count shows that licence evasion on its waterways has reduced by 0.7% overall in the past year to 3.7%, with 96.3% of boats holding up-to-date licences. This is the eighth year the rate has stayed below 5%. The survey, completed in March, identifies boats on waterways across England & Wales and provides a comprehensive snap-shot of licence evasion. The information is used to support the day-to-day work carried out by the Trust. Jon Horsfall, interim head of boating at Canal & River Trust, said: “Boaters’ licence fees contribute in helping us to carry out the huge task of keeping our canals and rivers open. It’s important that everyone plays their part and we are delighted that the evasion rate has reduced again this year. Our boat licence customer support team has done a fantastic job working with boaters to make sure they are licensed correctly. “Unfortunately, a small minority continue to enjoy the benefits of boating on the waterways without putting anything back to fund their upkeep. In 2016/17 we had to remove 101 boats from our canals and rivers as they were unlicensed or in breach of out terms and conditions. There’s also an important safety aspect: if a boat isn’t licensed we can’t know that it’s safe, which could be a risk for both the boat owner and other boaters.” The national boat count also paints a picture of the changing numbers of boats across the country. The Trust’s waterways in London have seen an increase of 339 boats – an increase of over 9% – with numbers in the central East, the South West and the South East regions also rising. Boat numbers in the North, North Wales and Midlands have seen a slight drop. Jon continued: “The popularity of the boating lifestyle in London remains high. Congestion aside it also puts a lot of pressure on the Capital’s 200-year old waterways: the facilities are seeing more use than ever before. It’s a challenge to meet the demands of this soaring growth but we are working with boaters, other stakeholders and canal users to develop a strategy that will help identify ways to address some of the challenges that it presents. We want the Capital’s waterways to work for all the boaters who know and love them.” ENDS For further media requests please contact: Fran Read, national press officer, Canal & River Trust m 07796 610 427 e fran.read@canalrivertrust.org.uk Lie no. 1. methinks ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 27 minutes ago, Muddy Ditch Rich said: Lie no. 1. methinks ? No - I disagree, it is true. They removed them as they were either not licenced, or, in breach of the T&Cs - they did not remove them as they were in breach of the 1995 (or any other) Act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotEver Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 6 hours ago, Ray T said: ...we had to remove 101 boats from our canals and rivers as they were unlicensed or in breach of our terms and conditions. Can they legally remove a boat for breaching the t&cs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 18 minutes ago, WotEver said: Can they legally remove a boat for breaching the t&cs? C&RT have said (in the past) that their T&Cs override the 1995 Act as they are dated after 1995 (post date the Act) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0atman Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said: 1st problem - Define "London" Does anyone come from Tottenham or any of the other places that used to exist before the term I come from London became the saying for an area that is beyond the M25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0atman Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 Do they count the unlicenced boats in Marinas not under the NAA and those on hard standings e.g. Debdale & Redhill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Ditch Rich Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 39 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: C&RT have said (in the past) that their T&Cs override the 1995 Act as they are dated after 1995 (post date the Act) Ha ha ha ha ha ha !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 Just now, Muddy Ditch Rich said: Ha ha ha ha ha ha !! If memory serves - it was Nigel who pointed out this 'gaff'. I believe It was said in court and there were several bemused looks. Wish I had saved it - maybe Nigel will re-post ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotEver Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 49 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: C&RT have said (in the past) that their T&Cs override the 1995 Act as they are dated after 1995 (post date the Act) I've just written a condition of my own that in issuing me with a license CaRT agree to give me a million quid a year. Do you think I can convince the courts to enforce it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Nibble Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, WotEver said: I've just written a condition of my own that in issuing me with a license CaRT agree to give me a million quid a year. Do you think I can convince the courts to enforce it? No, I'm afraid I just abolished the courts as part of the republic act of 2017. Act of hamster that is, none of that parliament stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty40s Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 46 minutes ago, b0atman said: Do they count the unlicenced boats in Marinas not under the NAA and those on hard standings e.g. Debdale & Redhill. I don't think so. Kathys boat is in Sileby Marina and hasn't appeared on CRT data since 2006. Buying short term river only licences obviously doesn't get added into the annual boat count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Ditch Rich Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 Its been pointed out loads of times but boaters continue to wave away their statutory rights. You deserve what you get if you now agree to it without protest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelMoore Posted May 5, 2017 Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said: If memory serves - it was Nigel who pointed out this 'gaff'. I believe It was said in court and there were several bemused looks. Wish I had saved it - maybe Nigel will re-post ??? You got the principle right Alan, but not the detail. It was a Mr Green as witness for BW who, responding to a challenge from a barrister, justified his claim that an internal BW memo superceded an Act of Parliament, by reason of its later date. It left the barrister nonplussed. All he could come out with once back on his chair, was – “Oh, so BW have declared UDI have they?” Nothing to do with T&C’s, only with what constituted the protected “track” of the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan(nb Albert) Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 I always find the claims regarding the number of years licence evasion has remained under 5% misleading. The original objective was 3% which has never been achieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 9 hours ago, NigelMoore said: You got the principle right Alan, but not the detail. It was a Mr Green as witness for BW who, responding to a challenge from a barrister, justified his claim that an internal BW memo superceded an Act of Parliament, by reason of its later date. It left the barrister nonplussed. All he could come out with once back on his chair, was – “Oh, so BW have declared UDI have they?” Nothing to do with T&C’s, only with what constituted the protected “track” of the system. Many thanks for the clarification. I realised that it wasn't originally intended as relating to the T&Cs, but, surely if the principle is proposed / accepted it would relate to all aspects of the Act, and, if the T&Cs, or any publication, were at odds with the Act they could be viewed as superceding the ACT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelMoore Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) You are right, the principle of that argument would apply to whatever they produced [and they claim it is all valid and binding anyway whatever they produce on whatever basis], but in all fairness I do not think they could be said to currently hold so absurd a belief, nor can they necessarily be held to what a witness of theirs says in the stand off the top of his own head. What a witness states as to his understanding of the law is of little account anyway. As Hildyard J said while I was struggling with cross examination of BW’s Patrol Officer – “I do not think it is going to help me to gauge as to each witness what their knowledge of the law was, because some may have a greater knowledge than others, some may claim a greater knowledge than others, some may think they know when they do not know, but one way or another it is really going to be a matter of what they are told to do, is it not?” edit to add - the comment is on the bottom of page 53 of the transcript: https://www.scribd.com/document/120879962/Moore-V-BWB-Cross-examinations-November-3-2011 Edited May 6, 2017 by NigelMoore add source for quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0atman Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 5 hours ago, Allan(nb Albert) said: I always find the claims regarding the number of years licence evasion has remained under 5% misleading. The original objective was 3% which has never been achieved. Strange how more and more boats have no name number or licence displayed .Watch this space CRT will abandon need to display licence so honest voters will not see their failure to police the evaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bod Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 26 minutes ago, b0atman said: Strange how more and more boats have no name number or licence displayed .Watch this space CRT will abandon need to display licence so honest voters will not see their failure to police the evaders. They tried! But the Bylaws said different. So now we are asked to print out our own licences to display. Bod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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