Engine diagnosis help!!

[lawzy]

3 minutes ago, bizzard said:

The starter motor didn't suddenly engage while the engine was running for some reason by any chance, like someone fiddling with the starter button or key. If so the starter pinion would very likely remain engaged with the engine spinning the starter motor. In which case the motor would probably squeal and seize up, stalling the engine. 

No 1 has touched the key that i do know but im not in a position to check the starter motor im affraid.

[adrianh]

I have a similar age engine, permanently engaged starter motor certainly possible as the don't seem to like the damp to much.

Do you have the electric stop/start actuator on the fuel pump. Mine has to be powered for fuel to be delivered, has your ignition switch failed intermittently - this could have run the starter motor or and now failed so not giving  power to the fuel enable solenoid

[lawzy]

3 minutes ago, adrianh said:

I have a similar age engine, permanently engaged starter motor certainly possible as the don't seem to like the damp to much.

Do you have the electric stop/start actuator on the fuel pump. Mine has to be powered for fuel to be delivered, has your ignition switch failed intermittently - this could have run the starter motor or and now failed so not giving  power to the fuel enable solenoid

It has a stop button but to start its on the key. I dont think starter is permanant engaged as it has a solenoid.

[bizzard]

8 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I can't see that being the case as he says it turns over on the key. 

Oh, right, I didn't see that.

[lawzy]

16 minutes ago, bizzard said:

The starter motor didn't suddenly engage while the engine was running for some reason by any chance, like someone fiddling with the starter button or key. If so the starter pinion would very likely remain engaged with the engine spinning the starter motor. In which case the motor would probably squeal and seize up, stalling the engine. 

No 1 has touched the key that i do know but im not in a position to check the starter motor im affraid.

Right ladies and gents i think il call it a night there isnt much light or much else i can do so im going to  call rcr and pay the £75 call out and 180 membership fee and wish i got a membership sooner. You have all been great but alas my boaty is a stuborn mule and will be till i spend lots of money on her. Till my next break down take care of yourselfs.

Connor

P.s time for pub across the canal.

[David Mack]

Tell us where you are and someone local may be able to come out and take a look.

[adrianh]

Is this a mechanical pull to stop or an electric press to stop.

If electrical look around the fuel pump for the connections, the solenoid has to be live for the pump to deliver to the injectors. With the engine turning, heated glow plugs, fuel at the injector pump ( guess you have the mechanical fuel pump so you can vent/prime by hand to check this on the injector pump) and the fuel feed enabled ( either by power to the coil or the mechanical option reset) there is nothing to stop the engine from starting unless you have had a catastrophic cam chain failure.

If you are looking for info on the engine it is probably based on a Kubota V series - depending on the number of cylinders/total cc's either 905, 1105,1205,1305 1505 etc. you can find plenty of details on line. These were popular agricultural/industrial engines also.

Link t0 info added http://www.dieselpartsdirect.com/kubota-D905-D1005-D1105-D1305-V1305-V1505-diesel-engines

Edited April 15, 2017 by adrianh

[lawzy]

42 minutes ago, bizzard said:

The starter motor didn't suddenly engage while the engine was running for some reason by any chance, like someone fiddling with the starter button or key. If so the starter pinion would very likely remain engaged with the engine spinning the starter motor. In which case the motor would probably squeal and seize up, stalling the engine. 

No 1 has touched the key that i do know but im not in a position to check the starter motor im affraid.

 

Its a push button to stop so electrical stop i guess as for the other stuff i really cant say im not perticularly well versed in tractor engines. I have made the call to rcr and i should get a call in the morning from a mechanic all being good.

Mob playing up so i have quoted the wrong guy...

Edited April 15, 2017 by lawzy

[Flyboy]

My money's on a seized alternator.

[lawzy]

6 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

My money's on a seized alternator.

Alternator spins when cranked

[jddevel]

Squeal possible bearing and possibly associated in some way with the fuel solenoid. If solenoid inoperative which although not familiar with your particular engine may be on the injector pump which if seized may cause symptoms you describe. 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Any update here as I'm intrigued to know the cause of the breakdown. To me a squeal means a slipping belt somewhere but from what the OP has suggested I'm not sure what. A squeal from the engine bearings would suggest that the engine would now be US but it seems that it still turns (albeit without firing up). The suggestion that the fuel pump may be the cause sounds good, but only because I know nothing about fuel pumps, so I'm curious to know what has caused the breakdown.

[WotEver]

Just now, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Any update here as I'm intrigued to know the cause of the breakdown. To me a squeal means a slipping belt somewhere but from what the OP has suggested I'm not sure what. A squeal from the engine bearings would suggest that the engine would now be US but it seems that it still turns (albeit without firing up). The suggestion that the fuel pump may be the cause sounds good, but only because I know nothing about fuel pumps, so I'm curious to know what has caused the breakdown.

Yep, ditto. 

[cuthound]

Has the water pump seized? 

Check by removing the belt and seeing if you can turn the pulley by hand.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Mechanical fuel lift pump knackered, or not spinning due to a slipping drive belt from a seized water pump or whatever? Would prevent the engine from starting. Don't know if this type of Beta has a mechanical fuel lift pump.

Jenny

Edited April 16, 2017 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Wanderer Vagabond]

24 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Has the water pump seized? 

Check by removing the belt and seeing if you can turn the pulley by hand.

Why would that stop the engine? I developed a knackered water pump on the Wey last summer, made a bit of noise but the engine still ran.

[cuthound]

17 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Why would that stop the engine? I developed a knackered water pump on the Wey last summer, made a bit of noise but the engine still ran.

It is rare, but the bearings can fail and seize the water pump. If this happens the engine forces the belt to slip around the pulley, leaving lots of belt dust behind and the extra load of the seized pump can stall the engine.

Edited April 17, 2017 by cuthound

[Wanderer Vagabond]

7 minutes ago, cuthound said:

It is rare, but the bearings can fail and size the water pump. If this happens the engine forces the belt to slip around the pulley, leaving lots of belt dust behind and the extra load of the seized pump can stall the engine.

I'd think you'd have to have had the belt very tight to stall the engine (probably what would cause the bearings to fail in the first instance) normally the belt would just slip and squeal.

[lawzy]

On 15/04/2017 at 19:45, David Mack said:

Tell us where you are and someone local may be able to come out and take a look.

its ok now i have been towed back to my marina and will be calling a local mechanic to come have a look. I have had a few people who aren't sure and each one says diffrent things are wrong so i will leave it up to the pros.

 

22 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Any update here as I'm intrigued to know the cause of the breakdown. To me a squeal means a slipping belt somewhere but from what the OP has suggested I'm not sure what. A squeal from the engine bearings would suggest that the engine would now be US but it seems that it still turns (albeit without firing up). The suggestion that the fuel pump may be the cause sounds good, but only because I know nothing about fuel pumps, so I'm curious to know what has caused the breakdown.

 

as of about 5pm its either the gearbox, clutch, diesel bug, bad diesel, the pump, the engine is trying to sieze. im sorry i cant tell you but i really don't know myself.

22 hours ago, cuthound said:

Has the water pump seized? 

Check by removing the belt and seeing if you can turn the pulley by hand.

no it turns by hand and so does the alternator which are the only 2 things the belt drives besides crankshaft.

 

21 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Mechanical fuel lift pump knackered, or not spinning due to a slipping drive belt from a seized water pump or whatever? Would prevent the engine from starting. Don't know if this type of Beta has a mechanical fuel lift pump.

Jenny

no idea im affraid i didn't check and tbh i wouldn't know what it would look like.

rcr thought it was my gearbox btw but he also wasn't sure as he is a recovery truck driver who only dabbles in boats and normally only does very basic repair work on them.

nice fella tho. did cost me £75 for a MAYBE but i cant blame him for not knowing.

 

p.s im at home now so i can't test anything anymore.

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by lawzy

[WotEver]

Thanks for the update. Please keep us posted when you know more

[lawzy]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Thanks for the update. Please keep us posted when you know more

will do

[Lord Gadbury]

Yes please keep us posted, we all have differing opinions, I am also wondering why a diesel will not start. What gearbox do you have ? Spoke to a few on the cut, heard of them falling off, much rattling, but not heard of siezing.

Good luck anyway and hope it is not to serious.

[lawzy]

9 minutes ago, Pompey said:

Yes please keep us posted, we all have differing opinions, I am also wondering why a diesel will not start. What gearbox do you have ? Spoke to a few on the cut, heard of them falling off, much rattling, but not heard of siezing.

Good luck anyway and hope it is not to serious.

technodrive tmc60 is the gearbox make n model number and mine never had even a wisp of a bad noise or not engaging prior to this happening...

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Just sort of thinking out loud, looking logically at what you have said happened,my understanding is that you were cruising along for about an hour when the engine started squealing and cut out and you haven't been able to restart it. If the engine is still capable of turning over, which it seems to be from what you have said, I'd be tempted to disregard the gearbox/clutch suggestions. If it were them the engine would fire up, probably make an almighty racket squealing or whatever but would still run. If either of them had catastrophically siezed and were permanently engaged then the starter motor wouldn't be able to turn the engine, if they weren't permanently engaged then the engine would start.

Another cause of failure to start would be if the injectors were no longer operating at the correct timing caused by a failure of the timing belt/chain but if that had gone you would have heard a lot of other noises (like pistons hitting valves) and a timing belt is usually toothed so would be unlikely to squeal, it would just snap, similarly a timing chain wouldn't squeal either, so I'd hopefully disregard that as well (otherwise the engine will already have substantial damage).

I think I'd put my hopes on whatever drives your fuel pump is no longer doing so for whatever reason. Perhaps blocked injectors through contamination overpressurised the pump causing failure, but that is entering the realms of pure guesswork. We'll be interested to find out what the eventual problem turns out to be (just so that we can check that our engines aren't going to do the same thing)

 

 

[jddevel]

Many many many years ago went on a Kepner Tregoe problem analysis course. Vaguely remember the theory was a sort of spread sheet asking the questions : How What Why Where When. In turn under each of those headings you again ask How What Why When Where. By continuing on like this you are supposed to be able to high light the likely source of the problem. We all do this subconsciously when presented with difficulties that we are sort of familiar with.