240 volt to 24 volt

[jddevel]

Following my "contribution" to the topic 12 volt to 24 volt conversion at the beginning of December and the discussion regarding a dedicated 24 volt battery bank plus charger

to operate my 24 volt toilet (I`m 12volts) what`s the advice regarding using my 240volt

supply from my 3000watt invertor-is it a problem. Toilet is 24 volt non-macerator and

supposedly 7.5amps with the what I`m led to believe is the quote "flushed motor locked

rotor current (amps)" as displayed in the specification?

[WotEver]

I seem to recall that we decided the most cost effective solution would be to have a small dedicated 24V battery pair and a small charger to keep them topped up. The charger would work fine from the inverter.

[Alan de Enfield]

Am I understanding correctly ?

You propose to use the 12v battery bank., to power up the inverter to produce 240 volt AC, then use a battery charger / step down transformer to convert the 240v AC to 24V DC.to operatre the toilet.

There are so many losses and inefficiencies - there lies 'madness'.

 

 

Unless your inverter is switched on for something else it will be extremely wasteful just to keep it on for flushing the toilet.

 

I do not know what Inverter you have (or have in mind) but as an example a 12v Victron 2400w inverter uses 38Ah per day just switched on and standing by 'ready to work'.

 

If you think about it - if you are planning to never drop below 50% Soc on your batteries the Inverter alone will require the best part of a 100Ah battery (on its own) just sat there waiting for you to flush the toilet a couple of times per day.

 

Not really effective use of electricity.

 

Edit to add :

 

The best option is to cut your losses and buy the 'proper' toilet for the job, not someones cast off you managed to acquire 'cheaply' (it won't be cheap in the long run).

Edited January 25, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[WotEver]

I was assuming the inverter was already working to supply other consumers.

[ditchcrawler]

Just the other side, my Mastervolt uses nowhere near that amount, only 200 Ma and is on 24/7 for the fridge and anything else I want to use it for.

[MtB]

An electric toilet is worrying on so many levels, doesn't the team think?

 

Last poster on here who seemed to revel in making everything so unnecessarily complicated was DeanS, IIRC...

[ditchcrawler]

An electric toilet is worrying on so many levels, doesn't the team think?

 

Last poster on here who seemed to revel in making everything so unnecessarily complicated was DeanS, IIRC...

I suppose once you have paid hard cash for something, you are determined to make it work if at all possible.

[jddevel]

Appreciate every ones contributions. I must admit that there is some truth in the point that having bought it

"I`ll try and make it work" but it is new-just ex-display as is the holding tank. The inverter -not yet

purchased -is anticipated to be a Victron 12/3000. It will be on to run a mains fridge and ignition to the

cooker plus occasional washing machine with remote panel control (don`t think wireless is yet available)

However one thought as the fridge is the only thing likely to be on permanently would it be easily possible to have the "fridge port" controlled that when fridge up to temperature the inverter was automatically switched

off and then on again when temperature rose above a certain level. Would certainly help over night.

[Dave Payne]

Everything on the boat will be 12v apart from a 24v loo?

 

Sell it and get a 12v one.

 

 

 

You have a fridge that is 240v running from the inventor?

 

The invertor might have a standby mode that only kicks when the fridge, or any other 240v device requests power, mine is on standby 24/7 and I dont notice much of a power drain.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Dave Payne

[ditchcrawler]

Appreciate every ones contributions. I must admit that there is some truth in the point that having bought it

"I`ll try and make it work" but it is new-just ex-display as is the holding tank. The inverter -not yet

purchased -is anticipated to be a Victron 12/3000. It will be on to run a mains fridge and ignition to the

cooker plus occasional washing machine with remote panel control (don`t think wireless is yet available)

However one thought as the fridge is the only thing likely to be on permanently would it be easily possible to have the "fridge port" controlled that when fridge up to temperature the inverter was automatically switched

off and then on again when temperature rose above a certain level. Would certainly help over night.

I have Mastervolt and leave it on 24/7 but you can put a link in so that it fires up when it sees a load I think it uses something like 200Ma

[Tony Brooks]

 

Appreciate every ones contributions. I must admit that there is some truth in the point that having bought it
"I`ll try and make it work" but it is new-just ex-display as is the holding tank. The inverter -not yet
purchased -is anticipated to be a Victron 12/3000. It will be on to run a mains fridge and ignition to the
cooker plus occasional washing machine with remote panel control (don`t think wireless is yet available)
However one thought as the fridge is the only thing likely to be on permanently would it be easily possible to have the "fridge port" controlled that when fridge up to temperature the inverter was automatically switched
off and then on again when temperature rose above a certain level. Would certainly help over night.

 

I know of one washing machine that would not run on that inverter but my questioner has not come back to me re the Victron fault lights so the cause could be undersized 12V cables or flat/faulty domestic batts. Just take care and do not assume a washing machine will work.

[jddevel]

I bought both a 12 volt and 24 volt Dometic Vacuflush toilet and holding tank -as stated ex- display. What I

didn`t realize at the time was that the 12 volt was through the floor and quite tall- not really suitable for a narrowboat. It is adaptable with a conversion kit - I`ve got one but raises it even more. The 24 volt is out

the back and more in keeping with what I believe will suit my design. Bit lower in design. From the comments

made it seems as if the local marine electrician can use the different load opportunities provided by the

Victron to sort out my needs even if I have complicated things because of what I thought was in my ignorance a bargain.

[steve hayes]

How about on of these.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Regulator-12V-Step-Up-to-24V-Car-Power-Supply-Adapter-Waterproof-/252603618431?hash=item3ad059547f:g:RksAAOSwnbZYDxjy

[jddevel]

Thank you Tony. Once my better half has decided on the washing machine I intend contacting their technical

department and ask for written confirmation that it will function correctly. I am enthused by the fact that

other contributors do successfully use their machines even if cruising at the time which is quite feasible.

Thanks Steve. Something under consideration.

[Dave Payne]

I would think that no washing machine tech dep't would give that confirmation.

 

I have a washing that works with my victron, but it does cause the victron to shut down a couple times through the wash, it starts up again no problem and finishes the wash, no idea why it does this though as I have connected a thing that shows me the washer only pulls max 500 watts, the cables between batteries and invertor are very heavy duty and I only run that washer when the engine is running at revs, may e the bank is not enough.

[Robbo]

I would think that no washing machine tech dep't would give that confirmation.

 

I have a washing that works with my victron, but it does cause the victron to shut down a couple times through the wash, it starts up again no problem and finishes the wash, no idea why it does this though as I have connected a thing that shows me the washer only pulls max 500 watts, the cables between batteries and invertor are very heavy duty and I only run that washer when the engine is running at revs, may e the bank is not enough.

How flat are the batteries and how thick are the cables? Do you have the voltage sensor on?

 

500 watts is very low for when it's heating the water. What's the element size and your Victron model? Is the Victron well ventilated and the fan working?

Edited January 27, 2017 by Robbo

[Dave Payne]

Washer doesn't heat as I connected it to the hot water supply and always ensure the tank is full of piping hot water before washing.

 

No idea what the cable size it, but they are very thick.

 

Batteries show a good level when the machine is running, plus I always run the engine a revs.

[ditchcrawler]

Washer doesn't heat as I connected it to the hot water supply and always ensure the tank is full of piping hot water before washing.

 

No idea what the cable size it, but they are very thick.

 

Batteries show a good level when the machine is running, plus I always run the engine a revs.

The heater may flash on as first bit of water in the pipe would be cold.

[Dave Payne]

Yeah could be, I run the hot water tap in the kitchen first to get the pipe full.of hot water, the washer is between tap and tank on the same pipe, so.it starts fine but throws a wobbly usually three or four times through the wash, it could well be the water in the pipe has cooled, but as I only put it on a 15 minute wash I do struggle to see this.

 

What I could try is to time the points it throws a wobbly and then on the next wash turn the tap on again to draw hot water through the pipe just before its about to throw a wobbly.

 

I always leave the alde heating water all through the wash to ensure the tank is as hot as possible.

 

Thinking about it though, and as Robbo says, it only peaks at 500 watts, where if the heater kicked in you would expect this to show a peak of at least 750 watts, being the rating of the invertor?

 

I did run it on 240v hook up and connected the power thing and I recall it peaked over 1300 watts.

[Robbo]

Try a cold wash and see if you get the same issue.

 

 

Your inverter is only 750watt? As the motor starts it will surge, does the victory have a surge power rating?

Edited January 27, 2017 by Robbo

[ditchcrawler]

 

I did run it on 240v hook up and connected the power thing and I recall it peaked over 1300 watts.

I think you have found the answer

[Dave Payne]

Doesn't have a cold wash, lowest I think is 30c.

 

No idea on the invertor, its an older model that came with the boat, phoenix 12/850 making it an 850 watt, it does say p30=1000 watts on it also, not sure if this means 1000 watts peak.

I think you have found the answer

Sorry, should have added that was before I connected to the hot feed, it was on cold feed.

Just found a manual, which I really should print off and read.

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/Manuals/phoenix/Phoenix%2012-850/Phoenix12_850NlUk_rev00.pdf

Edited January 27, 2017 by Dave Payne

[Robbo]

Doesn't have a cold wash, lowest I think is 30c.

No idea on the invertor, its an older model that came with the boat, phoenix 12/850 making it an 850 watt, it does say p30=1000 watts on it also, not sure if this means 1000 watts peak.

 

Sorry, should have added that was before I connected to the hot feed, it was on cold feed.

I think that's the issue, motor overloading the inverter from the initial surge of it starting.

[Dave Payne]

 

 

And by doing so, it says about beeps, ill listen to the beeps next wash and see how many it does.

 

I'm outing my money on batteries as I only have three cheapo ones, that are showing signs of departing my boat in the summer.

[Chewbacka]

Doesn't have a cold wash, lowest I think is 30c.

 

No idea on the invertor, its an older model that came with the boat, phoenix 12/850 making it an 850 watt, it does say p30=1000 watts on it also, not sure if this means 1000 watts peak.

 

Sorry, should have added that was before I connected to the hot feed, it was on cold feed.

Just found a manual, which I really should print off and read.

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/Manuals/phoenix/Phoenix%2012-850/Phoenix12_850NlUk_rev00.pdf

My guess is that p30=1000w means it will supply 1000w for a max of 30mins before it overheats. That will also require that it is mounted in a cool place with good ventilation. Though it is possible it is 30secs rather than mins. What does the manual/spec sheet say?