gas locker glands

[jddevel]

I`ve run a 20mm o.d. plastic covered stainless steel gas pipe through the gas locker bulkhead wall under the gunnel into the cabin. Reading the BSS it would appear I need to use a gland to protect the pipe where to passes through the bulkhead. Advice on type and where available please.

[nicknorman]

Firstly I'll admit I barely know what I'm talking about when it comes to gas plumbing but I have to say that I think it would have been easier if you'd used what most other folk use which is imperial size copper gas pipe. If you are building to the RCD does the SS pipe have the requisite wall thickness? Also I'm just wondering how you get from 20mm pipe to the appliances in terms of fittings, but hopefully you've got that one sorted!

 

Anyway to answer your question directly you can get cable glands from a multitude of sources. Do you want plastic or brass? If you want brass there is perhaps less choice but have a look at the RS website as an example. For example you could go for this one (although I can't immediatel see the maximum wall thickness, which you haven't mentioned anyway) http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/cable-glands/4058772/but there are loads more, just watch out for the minimum order quantity. With RS you can order on line for collection at one of their many trade counters and there is no delivery charge or minimum order. Oddly, you can't just pitch up at a trade counter and order there unless you have a trade account.

[Bewildered]

Oddly, you can't just pitch up at a trade counter and order there unless you have a trade account.

Actually you can buy from the RS trade counter without a trade account, I have done it many times.

 

Although their policy is to sell only to trade all you need to do is prove you are a trade. I used to do this with a business card.

Every time they would ask if I wanted to open a trade account, every time I declined the offer as I didn't use them enough and didn't want more crap through the post. Also I find them far to expensive, though they do carry a lot of stuff which is useful or hard to find elsewhere.

 

If you don't have a trade simply make one up; create a company letter head and take it in as proof of your trade. It's what I did before I started my business, I didn't find it a problem making a purchase.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Bewildered

[MtB]

The reason certain places only sell to 'trade' customers is because trade customers generally know what they want to buy. When they accept 'retail' customers, the trade counter can easily get clogged up with people who don't know what parts are needed to do a job and spend ages asking questions of the bod behind the counter about what might be available to do whatever job they are trying to describe to him. Then they spend £2 on it, then bring it back an hour later because its the wrong part and the performance is repeated. So the 'trade only' policy is usually wheeled out to get rid of this type of time-wasting customer, especially when there is a queue of real trade customers behind him tapping their feet waiting to spend £100s.

 

So it is all in the way you ask for what you want. Know the part you want to buy (choose it from their website first) and you won't get challenged or turned away. Turn up with a piece of 20mm stainless supposed boat gas pipe and asking how to protect it passing through a steel bulkhead, and you'll be asked if you are trade. Especially if the counter is busy.

[WotEver]

Have a read through sec7 of the guide: http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/164540/bss%20guide%20chap7.pdf

 

Note that if the pipe enters the locker below the level of the cylinder valves the gland or bulkhead fitting must be gas tight.

[MtB]

Oh and I agree with Nick. Use the same pipe system as everyone else uses, and save yourself a TONNE of problems like this, and possibly a further tonne of spikey comments from the BSS examiner next time you need a stifficate.

[PaulJ]

I`ve run a 20mm o.d. plastic covered stainless steel gas pipe through the gas locker bulkhead wall under the gunnel into the cabin. Reading the BSS it would appear I need to use a gland to protect the pipe where to passes through the bulkhead. Advice on type and where available please.

Use a 20mm brass cable gland. Any electrical counter will sell them- the type with the rubber washer that grips the outer will be OK as long as it is above the regulator height.

I am guessing your pipe is actually standard 15mm - just the plastic covering that makes it 20mm ? Fairlines used to use similar for their gas pipes (albeit a bit smaller).

[MtB]

The only stainless steel pipe and fittings system widely available that I know of is "TrakPipe". Corrugated bendy pipe, available with yellow plastic sheath. Technically compliant for boats, I believe, but clumsily large and inappropriate for NB systems in my personal opinion.

[Chewbacka]

Unless you are using a lot of gas, do you need or want a pipe with such a large diameter???

[jddevel]

I must first apologize for obviously not making myself clear to some. It was purchased via B.E.S. and has an outside diameter of just under 20mm. Having used this as a continuous run from the rear of the cooker position through the cabin bulkhead under the gunnel and into the bow gas locker it seemed a shame to cut it to pass through the gas locker to ensure gas tightness. I felt a gland would be just as appropriate and avoid damaging the integrity of the pipe. Whilst I have some of my own ideas I see no reason not to consider others constructive points of view. Perhaps an expansion of my position will aid some more "helpful" responses.

The product is I quote below:

GASTITE® flexible gas pipe is a corrugated stainless steel tube (CSST) with a UV resistant polyethylene cover. 0.5 bar max. operating pressure in domestic, commercial and industrial applications. Approved in accordance with BS EN 15266:2007. XR2 mechanical fittings are a tool-less flare design with metal-to-metal seal and patented Jacket-Lock®, which eliminates exposed stainless steel beyond the nut. All components are fully re-useable.
For Natural Gas and LPG.

[dor]

I must first apologize for obviously not making myself clear to some. It was purchased via B.E.S. and has an outside diameter of just under 20mm. Having used this as a continuous run from the rear of the cooker position through the cabin bulkhead under the gunnel and into the bow gas locker it seemed a shame to cut it to pass through the gas locker to ensure gas tightness. I felt a gland would be just as appropriate and avoid damaging the integrity of the pipe. Whilst I have some of my own ideas I see no reason not to consider others constructive points of view. Perhaps an expansion of my position will aid some more "helpful" responses.

The product is I quote below:

GASTITE® flexible gas pipe is a corrugated stainless steel tube (CSST) with a UV resistant polyethylene cover. 0.5 bar max. operating pressure in domestic, commercial and industrial applications. Approved in accordance with BS EN 15266:2007. XR2 mechanical fittings are a tool-less flare design with metal-to-metal seal and patented Jacket-Lock®, which eliminates exposed stainless steel beyond the nut. All components are fully re-useable.

For Natural Gas and LPG.

 

Usual procedure with copper pipe is to drill through a compression bulkhead fitting and pass the pipe through so no need to cut the pipe. The compression fitting ensures gas-tightness.

Can you use compression fittings on your pipe if it is corrugated? I would imagine not.

[system 4-50]

Have a read through sec7 of the guide: http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/164540/bss%20guide%20chap7.pdf

 

Note that if the pipe enters the locker below the level of the cylinder valves the gland or bulkhead fitting must be gas tight.

Re the above: Can you get it into the locker above the BSS minimum height? If yes, the situation becomes so much simpler.

Edited January 4, 2017 by system 4-50

[Chewbacka]

The BSS requirements require the -

 

"Pipework must exit LPG cylinder lockers through either, a bulkhead fitting, or a cable gland fitting, or be above the LPG‐tight level. The sealing arrangements must be free of signs of damage and deterioration. The above requirements also apply where any part of a cylinder housing forms a part of the craft’s hull or superstructure and where the LPG pipe exits the housing into the interior of the vessel.

 

 

NOTE – in the event the pipework exits the locker below the LPG‐tight level through a conduit, it is acceptable that the pipework is protected by sealant which is in good condition and free of any holes, that completely seals the area between the pipework and the conduit inner walls and does not noticeably move or dislodge when the LPG pipework is subject to light manual force. "

So you can with the correct fittings use a length of conduit and sealer.

[jddevel]

I have read through the BSS first "briefly" with notes and then in detail as I come to each phase of the

various installations. Whilst for example my entry into the locker is what I would interpret as above the top

of the valves and therefore above the current LPG tight level I just feel "belt and braces" wont hurt. Although I had decide initially on the use of conduit on re-reading the BSS and recognising as in all trades revisions based on experience are the norm that a non-abrasive gland type fitting may be more prudent. Having had

accounts, with for example RS for well over 30 years my experience and unfortunately knowledge is related to

the house building industry. As I`m learning narrowboats are different. For example short length braided

flexible piping is acceptable in boats but frowned upon in new build properties. I am using a marine gas

engineer because of my location in Cornwall where completion is taking place. This follows advice from the

forum-get it near home. However due to the location trade experience is not so readily available- not something mentioned in the advice referred to above. It means that worldly experience has taught me don`t be too proud

to ask advice from others to ensure you if humanly possible don`t make mistakes. It has become apparent on

reading numerous forum topics especially where comments referring to BSS surveyors that different

interpretations of regulations sometimes exist. The local guy whose to carry out the initial BSS will more than likely not be the same guy in 4 years time.It looks as if cable glands are the way to go. Unless ofcourse

contributors suggest otherwise!

[widebeamboy]

This made me think about my install that was done by the boat builder which I suspect is quite common at least on their builds anyway. I was concerned about it not being BSS compliant, however I suspect having looked at the subsequent details that were posted it will be fine. Mine enters above the gas regulator, into the top loading locker via a hole and it is inside a reinforced piece of transparent hose. Have to say it probably isn't how I would have done it and I guess we will see what the BSS examiner thinks of it in the next months when it is due its first one.

[Murflynn]

BSS Guide 7.8.1 says: LPG pipework must be made of either seamless copper tube, or stainless steel tube, or copper nickel alloy.

 

I'm not sure that corrugated stainless steel tube necessarily complies with that requirement. I wouldn't be surprised for a clarification to be issued dis-allowing corrugated flexible tube. You may be building for an argument with the BSS examiner in the future.

This made me think about my install that was done by the boat builder which I suspect is quite common at least on their builds anyway. I was concerned about it not being BSS compliant, however I suspect having looked at the subsequent details that were posted it will be fine. Mine enters above the gas regulator, into the top loading locker via a hole and it is inside a reinforced piece of transparent hose. Have to say it probably isn't how I would have done it and I guess we will see what the BSS examiner thinks of it in the next months when it is due its first one.

If the gland is above the level of the regulator and the cylinder valve then it complies with BSS 7.8.2: LPG pipes passing through metallic bulkheads or decks must be protected by the use of sleeves, grommets, or bulkhead fittings.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Murflynn

[jddevel]

Due to reserved comments regarding the type of gas pipe used (although as recommended by a marine gas engineer- see my earlier comment regarding the availability of narrowboat engineers) I have sent details to the local

BSS surveyor for his comments. As I stated earlier some things are open to interpretation and I therefore need clarification

[nicknorman]

Due to reserved comments regarding the type of gas pipe used (although as recommended by a marine gas engineer- see my earlier comment regarding the availability of narrowboat engineers) I have sent details to the localBSS surveyor for his comments. As I stated earlier some things are open to interpretation and I therefore need clarification

I think this is a sensible (and cost-free action), otherwise known as covering your arse! Perhaps you are feeling a bit irritated by all the negativity but it comes back to weighing up the pros and cons of doing it the "normal" way vs the innovative way. I have to say that the advantages of your piping are not immediately obvious to me but then what do I know! Anyway my point is that I know how you feel - when I announced on here that all my boat's electrics would be controlled by computers and switched by MOSFETs I was generally thought to be quite mad - but 6 years on I have no regrets and the system has performed excellently. For me, there were clear advantages of cleverness and functionality to be set against the increased cost and complexity, and these have proven to be as expected.

 

So (just occurred to me) if you like new, innovative and hi-tech, have a look at Empirbus dc distribution and control systems!

Edited January 4, 2017 by nicknorman

[jddevel]

Not irritated. Simply ensuring I get it accepted. I must admit I enjoy lateral thinking but now at my age need to limit it as learning curve linked to blood pressure has to be watched.

[MtB]

My personal view is leave the new ways of doing things to others. Adopt them yourself once they've ironed out the problems (like convincing a string of BSS bods your corrugated stainless gas pipe really IS ok!)

[jddevel]

Regarding the pipe. It is a ridged pipe which has no memory and can be easily manipulated with no specialist

tooling ( although I have all the necessary formers etc. for copper) I`ve learnt with my use of Uponor multi

layer piping in plumbing that this is an enormous time and eventually cost saving asset.

As I understand it- so I`m told -this type of pipe is used extensively in the marine industry . A potentially much more difficult environment. But as stated jury is out and is currently under review.

[MtB]

I can see the suitability. My concern is the need to periodically convince others with less open minds.

 

Getting each new BSS will be like having groundhog day all over again...

[jddevel]

Local BSS surveyor is consulting "the office" by which I assume he means the Boat Safety Scheme at Milton

Keynes. Hopefully with a positive response from them-in writing- will allay any future difficulties. One can

only be optimistic but being cynical at my age it may take to many "meetings" to get an answer in my time frame

[jddevel]

Have received the following comment from my Marine gas engineer:

Quote

" I have sent you an extract from ‘BS EN ISO 10239:2014 Small Craft – LPG Systems’ regarding using CSST in

vessels, if you would like to pass it on to the surveyor. The CSST is used in place of Copper tubing.

Gastite pipe has approval with BS EN 15266."

Now await BSS response.

[Murflynn]

well done on getting the evidence of ISO approval.

hope it also fits with the BSS people.